2012-06-21, 21:25 | Link #41 | |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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Well anyway I can attest to all of my favorite characters being pretty "balanced" in their development in the context of their respective series. Except for Sayaka. Interestingly enough I tend to gravitate toward less struggle-prone shows although there aren't any suffering-free characters I really like.
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2012-06-21, 22:18 | Link #42 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vacationing in the southern isles.
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2012-06-21, 22:26 | Link #43 | |
Banned
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2012-06-21, 23:29 | Link #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 36
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I got my wisdom teeth taken out a week ago and being Dr. Casey is still suffering, hopefully I'll get some character development out of this
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2012-06-22, 00:29 | Link #46 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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If I had to answer that though, it's not just about suffering. Urobuchi Gen's works tend to have other otaku elements in it. Madoka was a mahou shoujo work with cute moe girls, which was part of its marketability and why people got invested in it the first place. Fate/Zero is part of an established franchise and has plenty of action packed sequences among other things that made it highly marketable. There are plenty of grim dark series out there that are very good but aren't marketable.
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2012-06-22, 00:39 | Link #47 | |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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Toei Animation 12515 *5 Mononoke *8919 *7 Kanon (2002) *6892 *4 Hakaba Kitarou As of 2010, Mononoke was one of the most successful shows Toei had ever produced other than franchises like One Piece or Pretty Cure, and it remains so today. Hakaba Kitarou was another successful "horror" show, though one based on a well-known character. These shows shared two things in common, remarkable production values and carriage on noitaminA. Oh, and there's quite a bit of suffering in both shows, despite Kitarou being putatively a comedy. Anime with traditional supernatural elements like youkai have fared pretty well in Japan. Natsume Yuujinchou is another good example. Brains Base 10316 *5 Zoku Natsume Yuujinchou 10240 *5 Natsume Yuujinchou Lucky thing Brains-Base has Natsume in its stable. If the studio had to rely on otaku-bait like Akikan! (average sales ~ 600 units), they'd be out of business. Baccano! and Kurenai don't hold a candle to Natsume either, though Durarara!! (18,000) is the studio's biggest success. We now return you to our regularly scheduled program about suffering.
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Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2012-06-22 at 03:23. |
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2012-06-22, 01:09 | Link #48 | |
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Age: 41
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So I think that speaks to both the point about why some "suffering" shows seem to be selling better than other "non-suffering" shows, and also why some "suffering" shows sell more than others that seem similar. I think it's not really about whether the show contains suffering or not, just whether it is able to engage an audience and that audience feels compelled to buy the anime BDs/DVDs as a momento. Time, place, circumstance, community/peer-pressure, subject matter, production values, and on and on. (If we can figure out the failproof formula, I'm sure we could get hooked up with some producers in Japan who are all ears. )
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2012-06-22, 03:44 | Link #49 |
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It's funny, since when we run down the checklist for successful series, there must be several dozen ones that also can be run down the same checklist yet were not as successful. You could apply this to any business. We tend to remember the epic wins and epic fails more so than the middlings. The human mind is a funny thing-- we just can't realize all that info at once as the input would overwhelm us, so we try to look for patterns that may or may not exist to make it easier.
There's many other factors, such as time, place, and just plain luck. There were certain events that transpired during Madoka's airing that might have changed how people view it had they not happened. This applies even on a personal level-- some of my favorite animes are my favorites because I watched them at a particular time where their message or effect was especially potent. Madoka came along when I was on the very verge of quitting anime, for example.
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2012-06-22, 04:19 | Link #50 | ||
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Age: 41
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It's been said that the tone/type of music that's popular in a society can be correlated to the state of the economy at the time (that in tough times, certain genres of music become more popular, and the reverse in prosperous times). I'm sure that's probably true for anime as well. Since productions often start a good 12-18 months before airing, there is a certain "gambling" element involved because you have no idea what the world will be like 12-18 months from now. This is why they often base works on existing popular franchises, because at least that brings a certain base expectation of stability. Quote:
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2012-06-22, 05:40 | Link #51 | |
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With suffering, it's sheer duration of it more than any one intense moment of it that tends to stand out for me. Plus, with Kayneth, the guy wasn't presented as terribly sympathetic, and he was more of an antagonistic figure, imo. People tend to expect things to not end up well for characters like that, even in 'lighter' shows.
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2012-06-22, 07:35 | Link #52 |
You're Hot, Cupcake
Join Date: Aug 2008
Age: 42
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And with the weekend, I can finally join in.
Tension/conflict has always been marked as an essential component of writing in general. Mary Sue-like situations where the character(s) go through idyllic situations day in, day out and don't change much usually frustrate the reader/viewer, although K-ON showed that even the absence of it can somehow be turned into a marketable scenario - but keeping in mind that by removing conflict, you're limiting your potential audience to a specific genre/style and the aesthetic factors will be paramount in such a scenario. But in the case of novels/light novels, they are constrained to text and have no visuals except what words evoke in the mind, so therefore tension and conflict are essential in such a medium. So then comes a few points from which the intenions of the author/director will diverge: 1. What is it that the author wants to accomplish with the character and story by putting them through conflict/suffering? 2. What type of response does the author/director want to evoke within the reading/viewing audience? 3. How does the author/director want the character to be regarded/thought of by the audience? 4. What kind of things does the author/director/scriptwriter think are crucial to what they consider to be a good story? 5. Were there any particularly major events that happened in their lives around the time they were involved in making this title? So on each point: (1) Does the author/writer want the chracter to: - Grow stronger as a result of suffering, rise to the occassion, prevail and be a better person for it? - Be broken by the experience and cast into the abyss? - Cry, whinge and squirm for the viewer's/writer's amusement? - Turn into something malevolent and inflict more suffiering in turn as vengeance for what was inflicted on them? - Strive, survive but not win/not get what they want? - Misanthropic/black humour? - Flesh out an IRL experience and canvas it in this title? - Gratuitous entertainment? (2) The response the author/writer wants from the audience is: - Mmm, impressive/inspiring that the character was able to endure and previal, power to them. - Another one for the Black Parade. Damn, that's cold. - Ah, look at that character be emo for the nth time! What a loser! - Wow, how twisted and cruel has this person become?! WTF - Geez, how cruel that they persevered and have nothing to show for it - Watching you fail/suffer in life makes me smile!!! - So that writer is still bitter about way back when? Heh. - EPIC DEATHS!!! I AM ENTERTAINED! - Hmm, that was deep...I think. - I still have no idea what on earth this happened for... (3) The character is thought of as: - They be cool - They have guts for somehow living throught that.... - Ah, this clown is laughable! - Ergh, why am I being made to watch this !&*%$!&*%&*% of a character... - GAR! - I like the part where they lost their head - Watching you fail/suffer in life makes me smile!!! - So cold that they didn't make it... - Seriously, this prick is still alive and got what they wanted?! (4) Creator thinks: - The only good ending is when all characters are cast into the abyss! I kill those I love the most the fastest! (Urobuchi) - I like seeing characters struggle and not get what they want. (Okada) - Damn that bitch for dumping me IRL...these female characters are going to pay!!! (Tomino/Anno) - I hate the world and all adults. Kids will save the world! (Miyazaki) - I like philosophy, European films and dogs. Let's be deep, slow and anti-Miyazaki. (Oshii) - Young love is so captivating and painful. (Shinkai) - I am a warrior of love! Let's have epic tales of intensity, morality and darkness but end with some form of redemption/salvation and love! With philosophical ranting in betweem. (Nasu) - I have freedom! FETISH TIME! (Okada) - I want tits juggling in every scene! That'll soften the death/blood spam! (Something ecchi with gore - eg. Highschool of the dead) - Humans are the most horiffic things in the universe. I need only tap into the human conscience and explore the darkness within to show that - while mindflocking you. Yet they are also quite special, which I can also show - while mindflocking you. And the women in anime don't exist in reality. I will show you that - while mindflocking you! (Kon) (5) IRL circumstances: - Getting dumped (Tomino/Anno) - Long-running recession - Imperialism (Tezuka) - 3/11 tsunami/earthquake - Inspired by another title/work - Death of someone close to them - 2012 apocalypse superstition - Wishing for the 'good old days' (Miyazaki) - The current state of the industry (Oshii) Could spend all night discussing specific examples in length, but I won't. In a nutshell, conflict/suffering is a mandatory ingrendient outside of superflaky moe. How that contributes to the overall mix and what the creator wants to do is another thing althogether. What I will say is that I'm getting rather tired with the spam of excessively morbid content lately, or overly dramatic/emo leads. Is being rational or mature in solving a problem so wrong these days? Space Brothers has conflict aplenty but people remain optimistic and take it in their stride while determining how to overcome their trials. Frankly, I find morbidness or body counts too easy. It's harder to be positive overall and provide reasons to admire/love/worship the character. Cheap sympathy/getting depressed is juvenile and easy.
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2012-06-22, 15:33 | Link #54 |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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I'm not sure I see the relevance of Space Brothers to this thread. Even if it is relevant, I think it's a little early to write the show off as offering "the same conflict over and over again with little variation" when we've only seen a quarter of the 48 planned episodes. At least Mutta's stopped talking about how the big brother should be ahead of the younger brother and is now concentrating on his own situation. I agree that I found this refrain rather tiring after a while, but it hit home with our Asian members here.
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2012-06-22, 19:50 | Link #56 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Overcoming hardships is only one way to develop a character:
1) In a lot of sport series you have characters becoming passionate about something. One of my favorite examples of this is Hikaru no Go. In this story the main character doesn't just become a strong player but his character arc is about wanting to become a stronger player because he learns to appreciate the game and finds another player his age who is already so dedicated to the game. Seiji Sensei mentioned Nodame Cantabile which is I think would be another good example of this type of character arc. 2) I think when suffering & hardships are used to develop a character, my personal favorite is when the character's themselves come to the realization that their own actions & decisions were part of this suffering. Hence it's still more of an internal type of character development, where the character stops blaming the world for their troubles and tries to overcome their own flaws: I think one of the best examples of this type of character development can be found in Twelve Kingdoms. Not an anime but I also think Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender is another character who highlights this type of development. 3) I also gravitate towards stories where the main character has to learn to connect to others despite "social anxiety". I think great examples of this are Natsume Yuujinchou (which does have aspects of suffering but I would argue that isn't the main point of the story), and the recent Tsuritama. Although I am personally not a fan I would say Kimi ni Todoke & Princess Jellyfish are also good examples of this. I guess social anxiety could be seen as a hard ship but it's something that is also very common and easy to relate to, more so than this character had all these horrible things happen to him/her. 4) The learning to appreciate another character: I think this is definitely a type of character development, where you have character A not liking character B but over time they learn to appreciate the other character. Obviously there are many many romance stories that fit this type but there are also quite a few stories related to friendship that fit too. I think the relationship between Isako & Yasako in Dennou Coil works here & the recent Sakamichi no Apollon. Another example is Kyo & Yuki in Fruits Basket who start off hating each other & wanting what the other has but gradually learning to get along and maybe realizing that they both did not have the perfect life the other imagined. Basically for me good character development is when a character naturally progresses from point A to point B. I think a lot of stories rely to much on plot twists or sudden changes to develop their characters, but for me at least the best type of character development is gradual where the audience can clearly see how the character changed over time. Overcoming suffering can be part of the development, but it's not the suffering that is important.
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2012-06-26, 03:57 | Link #57 |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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^of all those examples, I personally feel Twelve Kingdoms is the best character development title of all.
Although a lot was lost in transition from novel to anime, it still came out extremely strong. Too bad vast majority of anime fans out there overlook that masterpiece, partly due to "MEH IT'S NOT CUTE ENOUGH" or some such nonsense.
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