To Aru Majutsu no Index Light Novel Discussion (Archives)

[djmaca]

^ Rather than a continuous spell it must be a spell that Imagine Breaker cannot touch. AFAIHS all the spells that IM has rendered useless are spells that he can touch physically. The spell might also be required to be cast repeatedly.

[RPG_Fanatic]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Why didn't Divine Punishment work against Touma then? It's not a one-shot spell.

But it does not continuously strike at one target. The triggering of the effect of Divine Punishment is one shot.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by RPG_Fanatic

But it does not continuously strike at one target. The triggering of the effect of Divine Punishment is one shot.

Then we have another problem because Touma touched those Anti-Skill members and Divine Punishment wasn't dispelled.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by RPG_Fanatic

But it does not continuously strike at one target. The triggering of the effect of Divine Punishment is one shot.

Even going by that, Touma's hostility against Vento was constant. DP was continuously being triggered, every moment he was hostile towards her.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by djmaca

^ Rather than a continuous spell it must be a spell that Imagine Breaker cannot touch. AFAIHS all the spells that IM has rendered useless are spells that he can touch physically. The spell might also be required to be cast repeatedly.

There's the clouded phenomenon where Accelerator was sure he attacked Touma from every angle making it impossible for him to block all the wings with just his right hand... All I can say is that IB's mechanics are very confusing.

[Marcus H.]

Then we have another problem because Touma touched those Anti-Skill members and Divine Punishment wasn't dispelled.

Now that I think about it, the coma is just a secondary effect of the Divine Punishment spell. Of course, it cannot be dispelled.
As for spells which are so powerful that it can be touched by the IB without dispelling (Fiamma's 40 km flame sword, Accelerator's Black Wings): it's just because the IB can only dispel so much per second. Beat that dispelling rate and you can overpower the IB.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by leukrota

There's the clouded phenomenon where Accelerator was sure he attacked Touma from every angle making it impossible for him to block all the wings with just his right hand... All I can say is that IB's mechanics are very confusing.

I believe that's the intention.

“Eh?” Kamijou looked shocked. “But leylines are…um…magical…right? So…”

“Yes, but…” Tsuchimikado interrupted him. “I just can’t figure out what your right hand really is. You say it can negate any magic or psychic power. But take an occult power like a human’s ‘life force’ for instance. You can’t kill someone just by giving them a handshake, right?”

“Well, no…”

“I get the feeling there are some odd ‘exceptions’. And leylines are most likely one of those exceptions. I highly doubt you can obliterate the entire Earth just by touching the ground.”

Imagine Breaker isn't as simple as we like to think.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Now that I think about it, the coma is just a secondary effect of the Divine Punishment spell. Of course, it cannot be dispelled.

Which then leads to a third problem because if it's a natural effect, why does destroying the cross dispel the effect?

[Kuroi Hadou]

Well, as to the leylines, I imagine it's something similar to the Holy Right, which just completely overpowered IB's nullification and restored itself faster than it could be destroyed by IB.

[Marcus H.]

Which then leads to a third problem because if it's a natural effect, why does destroying the cross dispel the effect?

Because the spell is not designed to do so. Same can be explained for why the 3000-degree Celsius flames of Innocentius cannot turn back the stuff it melted upon manifesting. Likewise, Touma can dispel Misaka Imouto's lightning and electricity, but he cannot dispel or revert to normal the ozone that she creates through her electricity.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Because the spell is not designed to do so. Same can be explained for why the 3000-degree Celsius flames of Innocentius cannot turn back the stuff it melted upon manifesting.

What's keeping them in the coma then? Even accounting for the lack of oxygen, the body would recover that rather quickly and "reboot".

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Well, as to the leylines, I imagine it's something similar to the Holy Right, which just completely overpowered IB's nullification and restored itself faster than it could be destroyed by IB.

Maybe there's certain type of magic that involves more life force than usual magic?

All these examples are usually from spells affecting the body...

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Because the spell is not designed to do so. Same can be explained for why the 3000-degree Celsius flames of Innocentius cannot turn back the stuff it melted upon manifesting.

...Eh ?

If you say it's a natural side effect that means it's no longer affected by magic. But if that's the case, how does destroying the cross remove the effects of the coma?

[NamelessOne]

I think Saronia's magic was not specifically aiming for his left arm and it going limp is just a secondary effect. Since touching it with IB did nothing the spell might have been aimed at something else like his mind. It does mention that he "suddenly smelled flowers" right before the spell activated. That might be the key to how that spell works.

[Marcus H.]

What's keeping them in the coma then?

Hypoxia.
I doubt one can recover from that condition instantly.

But if that's the case, how does destroying the cross remove the effects of the coma?

Eh, I don't know.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by NamelessOne

I think Saronia's magic was not specifically aiming for his left arm and it going limp is just a secondary effect. Since touching it with IB did nothing the spell might have been aimed at something else like his mind. It does mention that he "suddenly smelled flowers" right before the spell activated. That might be the key to how that spell works.

I can accept the 'secondary effect' explanation so long as we can see that it doesn't require a magical source to sustain it's effect.

Meaning it doesn't get better just because Kamijou destroyed something.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Hypoxia.
I doubt one can recover from that condition instantly.

Aaaaannnd~ we're back to the problem of needing to destroy the cross in the first place

[Marcus H.]

Speculah again.
It's possible that the immediate effect of the Divine Punishment spell is the hypoxia, and the lasting effect is that no one can recover from the spell as long as the cross is still intact. Of course, this requires Touma to touch the victim for him/her to recover, but once he takes away his hand, it's hypoxia all over again for the poor victim. Destroying the cross is needed to allow a recovery period for the victims.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Speculah again.
It's possible that the immediate effect of the Divine Punishment spell is the hypoxia, and the lasting effect is that no one can recover from the spell as long as the cross is still intact. Of course, this requires Touma to touch the victim for him/her to recover, but once he takes away his hand, it's hypoxia all over again for the poor victim. Destroying the cross is needed to allow a recovery period for the victims.

I think hypoxia would be the lasting effect in this case, not that it makes any difference. Going into further speculation, perhaps the spell inscribes a rune in the subject's brain or somewhere that doesn't have an easy access (such as the Johann's pen mark inside Index's mouth) so just touching the subject would not be enough to dispel the effect. But explaining something with speculation is not really satisfying...

So far, it seems like IB works according to Kamachi's needs (or whims) so it's basically a deus ex machina (or maybe a deus ex humerus? )... It's current ambiguity is one of the few things that bother me from the novels, so I try not to think much about it.

[Marcus H.]

^ I'm sure Divine Punishment isn't a Rune spell.

[Chaos2Frozen]

New Testament 3, Chapter 5 at 40%

“We were led to that fake information by Saronia, so that means it’s exactly what she wanted us to think was the case. …If I were her, I would have given the enemy fake information that would lead them away from my own weaknesses. Something like saying Imagine Breaker was a projectile weapon. We may not be able to do an in depth analysis of her psychology or anything, but can’t we at least try to see what she was trying to hide with the fake information?”

Kamijou is really way too comfortable with this kind of lifestyle to be able to come up with a plan to counter both guns and magic on the fly.

On the other hand...

“Oh!! F-finally…Finally I meet someone who recognizes me as the president at first glance!”

“D-don’t get tears in your eyes like that! U-Um…The thing is…!!”

Oh Mr. President...

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Kamijou is really way too comfortable with this kind of lifestyle to be able to come up with a plan to counter both guns and magic on the fly.

Rather than being clever, he's going for a desperate move, taking a gambit on Saronia's weakness... Of course, we know that in fiction, desperate moves have about 95% chance of success.

[Okashira]

Originally Posted by leukrota

There's the clouded phenomenon where Accelerator was sure he attacked Touma from every angle making it impossible for him to block all the wings with just his right hand... All I can say is that IB's mechanics are very confusing.

That's a pretty common misconception. Accelerator intended the attack to be unescapable, however before the wings landed on their target Touma took "advantage" of being able to touch (not dispel) the wings with his right hand and pulled them, creating a small safe zone not originally intended by Accelerator.

So, if you want a simple explanation, Accelerator threw 3 dices for 777 which couldn't possible lose, however Touma could touch the dices and got in the way creating a 776 instead; and Accelerator couldn't notice the tampering until the play was over.

“That’s what happens when someone has messed with the ignition and the ground,”

Pretty cool move, I guess that Hamazura fans actually got a bone, even if it might be only once.

The volume has been pretty fun, even though there is no big bad boss around to mess things up and that can wipe out countries by using his mojo.