(L+CR) Samurai Flamenco

[Dop]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

If the discussion of every episode is going to be greeted with pages of nit-picking about possible homosexuality, I for one will not be posting in this thread for very long. Enough already. Let's move along.

<APPLAUSE>hear hear!

[musouka]

Originally Posted by ZabiLegacy

Tiger and Bunny found that it grew in popularity the more it targeted towards Fujoshi. The Barnaby/Kotetsu angle proved very popular in doujin circles, and the series responded by downplaying the female love interest in favor of increasing fanservice shots and increasing the shounen-ai tension between the two leads.

Uh, what female love interest was there in Tiger & Bunny?

Not to mention, during the show proper, I can't imagine that there was enough time to "up the BL factor". Perhaps if T&B had been a split cour series with a decently long gap, ala Code Geass, I could see that happening, but not the show as it was.

Now, later on we can see evidence of the show acknowledging its popularity with female fans. There's an affectionate nod in the first movie, and a couple more in Side Tiger, what with Kotetsu getting upset over not having a private celebration with Barnaby and it being outright stating that Kotetsu's favorite actress is supposed to look like Barnaby. It's always seemed weird to me that people will complain about the eyelashes line--which was obviously a joke on "serious" deathbed talk--but never say anything about my examples.

EDIT: As for this show, while I think it will appeal to a female audience, I didn't really get the feeling it was going over the top in fanservice. But here's the really weird thing about "pandering". No matter how mildly a show with male leads might do it, it seems like there's a portion of the fanbase that will get upset over the mere idea of it attracting a female audience...

[Triple_R]

Well, here's the thing with the eyelashes line...

Spoiler for Major Tiger and Bunny spoilers:

Sunrise did a fantastic job of making people think that Kotetsu could really be dead going into the final episode. So, for about a week there, it seemed like that eyelashes line could be Kotetsu's last words. Which, let's face it, would be really lame. So it's not just the line itself, but the context it came in.

Now, in retrospect, I don't care about it at all, because Kotetsu lived on. But if Kotetsu had died, then yeah, it would have bothered me. I think a character that cool and well-developed deserves better last words than that if he dies on-camera.

Anyway, I don't see the problem with a show appealing to both BL fans and sentai hero fans. If anything, I think it will nicely temper the characters, as they'll be wrote to appeal to both genders, likely making them more well-rounded in general.

[ZabiLegacy]

If you guys want to debate the point I'm open to in PM. but, I do agree that the BL discussion got way out of hand.

More worth discussing at this point is how much western style attempts at doing Super Hero stories set in the real world makes this so diffrent from other recent super hero shows from Japan. It's very clear that madhouse, but also marvel were huge influences for this show. It's especially clear when compared to last season's attempt at reviving the super hero genre in the form of the campy and flamboyant Gatchaman Crowds

[kuromitsu]

*gets off from hands*

OK, this is my last comment on this topic (for today, anyway).

I still have no idea where people are getting the "pandering" from in this show. Seriously, the only scene that could've been constructed as a joking fanservice was when Masayoshi showed up with Gotou's shirt. Other than that, there was nothing, definitely not on the level that some people claim. It's just that apparently according to certain people if an anime is about two guys and they don't talk all the time about how manly and heterosexual they are and how much they love boobs = they're gay and the show is trying to pander to those damned females.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, here's the thing with the eyelashes line...

Spoiler for Major Tiger and Bunny spoilers:

Sunrise did a fantastic job of making people think that Kotetsu could really be dead going into the final episode. So, for about a week there, it seemed like that eyelashes line could be Kotetsu's last words. Which, let's face it, would be really lame. So it's not just the line itself, but the context it came in.

There was never a chance that Kotetsu would die, and I thought that was made even more obvious by that line. There's no way he'd "go out" with a line about Bunny's eyelashes. As musouka said, it was an obvious joke on dramatic final speeches.

Originally Posted by ZabiLegacy

More worth discussing at this point is how much western style attempts at doing Super Hero stories set in the real world makes this so diffrent from other recent super hero shows from Japan. It's very clear that madhouse, but also marvel were huge influences for this show. It's especially clear when compared to last season's attempt at reviving the super hero genre in the form of the campy and flamboyant Gatchaman Crowds

I'm not entirely sure what is "western style" about tokusatsu/sentai. Tiger and Bunny, yes, that was riffing on American style superheroes. But Gatchaman Crowds and Samurai Flamenco, especially the latter, are purely tokusatsu.

[ZabiLegacy]

In terms of the actual super hero design and manurisms, it resembles sentai more, but in terms of plot structure it doesn't. As a whole western and japanese super hero genres have been moving in opposite directions for quite some time. The sentai genre has become more metaphorical and has modeled itself around the spectacular successes of Kamen Rider and Super Sentai.

Meanwhile, ever since the begining of the bronze and modern age of comics in the 1980s the trends have been towards making super hero stories more realistic, and less idealized. It show's up in Zetman, which had alot of influence from the Marvel anime. People object towards mention of Kick Ass for good reason, since Kick Ass while pretending to be a deconstruction is a pretty huge heroic empowerment fantasy at it's core and just sort of sleezy. If anything I think it resembles some of the 90s anti-hero wave. I also see just a tiny bit of miracleman and watchaman, in how it features someone who hates their own identity forming a new idea of themselves in their super hero alter ego. There isn't any visible rendition of the impotetence metaphor from either of those though.

You'll also notice that his motivations for becoming a hero pay lip service to making the world a better place, but are generally resoundingly selfish. He hates feeling useless, he hates that his life isn't like the shows he watched when he was a kid, so he is going out of his way to change that. This is very much in line with the very western ideal of a super hero, instead of the super powered public servants of Gatchaman Crowds or the super powered Samurai Clans of the Sentai shows.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by ZabiLegacy

Meanwhile, ever since the begining of the bronze and modern age of comics in the 1980s the trends have been towards making super hero stories more realistic, and less idealized. It show's up in Zetman, which had alot of influence from the Marvel anime.

Subverting and de-idealizing heroic tropes is not exclusive to American comics, though. Anime and manga have been doing it for quite a long time, yes, even tokusatsu. Someone who is more familiar with the genre than me could probably name characters and shows, but the one that comes to my mind is Kikaider. As for Zetman, that was based on a manga that was serialized in the late '80s/early '90s so while I haven't seen it I really doubt it was influenced by the Marvel anime. And people compare Samurai Flamenco to Kick Ass because they share a similar premise, that's all.

Originally Posted by ZabiLegacy

You'll also notice that his motivations for becoming a hero pay lip service to making the world a better place, but are generally resoundingly selfish. He hates feeling useless, he hates that his life isn't like the shows he watched when he was a kid, so he is going out of his way to change that. This is very much in line with the very western ideal of a super hero, instead of the super powered public servants of Gatchaman Crowds or the super powered Samurai Clans of the Sentai shows.

Different interpretations of his characters aside, what you describe is definitely not exclusive to western works. Also, let's make a note here that while Gatchaman Crowds is not a typical hero show, Jou did exactly what you say: he realized he hated feeling useless, the conviction that his dreams would never come true and he would never make a difference. And then he shook himself, powered up and had a heroic return.

[ZabiLegacy]

Neither is exclusive to american works, but it is more widespread in american works, and fits more in line with the american ideal of the romantic self-actualized hero. This compared to the fact that the idea of a super hero in a near totally realistic setting is old hat in american comics but totally out of place in the more bombastic world of Japanese super heroes makes it seem plausible.

Are you telling me that western superheros weren't a serious influence on this series?

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Subverting and de-idealizing heroic tropes is not exclusive to American comics, though. Anime and manga have been doing it for quite a long time, yes, even tokusatsu. Someone who is more familiar with the genre than me could probably name characters and shows, but the one that comes to my mind is Kikaider. As for Zetman, that was based on a manga that was serialized in the late '80s/early '90s so while I haven't seen it I really doubt it was influenced by the Marvel anime. And people compare Samurai Flamenco to Kick Ass because they share a similar premise, that's all.


Different interpretations of his characters aside, what you describe is definitely not exclusive to western works. Also, let's make a note here that while Gatchaman Crowds is not a typical hero show, Jou did exactly what you say: he realized he hated feeling useless, the conviction that his dreams would never come true and he would never make a difference. And then he shook himself, powered up and had a heroic return.

Just a correction Zetman is an ongoing manga that started in 2002. I wouldn't say many of it's theme's are purely western ones, but it does have more a western feel to it then say something like Gatchaman Crowds.

[GDiddy]

Went in thinking that this would be a T/B ripoff, instead got Kickass the anime

It's ok. I'll give it a few more episodes....though Masayoshi is kind of a sad sack

Oh, I see the 'OH NOES THIS ANIME HAZ DUDES IN IT GAY GAY GAY' crowd made an appearence. Whatever.

[Master_Yoma]

What did I just watch this seem dumber then Tiger and Bunny

[OkamiNoKaze]

Yeah I got the Kick-Ass vibes as well as Tiger and Bunny. He needs to find himself a Hit-Girl

[darkchibi07]

Originally Posted by OkamiNoKaze

Yeah I got the Kick-Ass vibes as well as Tiger and Bunny. He needs to find himself a Hit-Girl

Do you think that's when one of the idols come in?

[Zaresh]

I'm wondering if I'm the only one here who thought of Don Quixote while watching the first episode. It would even make a little bit of sense for them to name the superhero "Samurai Flamenco", given that flamenco is somethig from Spain that everybody recognizes. And, well, Quixote was a knight nobleman, and the samurais were at some point.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by ZabiLegacy

Neither is exclusive to american works, but it is more widespread in american works, and fits more in line with the american ideal of the romantic self-actualized hero. This compared to the fact that the idea of a super hero in a near totally realistic setting is old hat in american comics but totally out of place in the more bombastic world of Japanese super heroes makes it seem plausible.

Are you telling me that western superheros weren't a serious influence on this series?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Also, just to make it clear, Masayoshi/Samurai Flamenco is not a superhero. He's just a guy who really wants to be one, but has no superpowers and until now all his "experience" involved having a strong sense of right and wrong, watching tons of tokusatsu series, and being delusional. Of course the story will likely develop along the lines of him becoming a hero, literally or figuratively, but I would bet that the overall themes will follow along the lines of friendship, what is good and what is bad/things being complicated, whether seemingly silly dreams are worth following, whether Masayoshi is an idiot, whether Gotou's attitude toward his job will change or not, etc. plus the related character development.

Also, so far I'm not seeing any of the gritty attitude from the show that western superhero comics like so much. It will probably get serious and perhaps even dark as it goes on, but it doesn't seem like it will get particularly grimdark à la certain American superhero comics. Masayoshi doesn't seem like he hates his life or the world or is frustrated with anyone in particular, to me he comes across as someone who really believes in what he's saying and has an earnest motivation to make the world a better place, whereas even the police is pretty apathetic toward things that may seem petty at first but may lead to bigger wrongs. In short he's a wide-eyed idealist. And while the world is doing its best to break him and he seems to take it in stride for now.

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

Just a correction Zetman is an ongoing manga that started in 2002. I wouldn't say many of it's theme's are purely western ones, but it does have more a western feel to it then say something like Gatchaman Crowds.

Then I'm probably thinking of something else - still, if the manga Zetman the anime was based on started in 2002 it's very unlikely that it was in any way inspired by the Marvel anime adaptations. And in any case, just because a story is about a superpowered individual doing dark stuff it's not necessarily inspired by American comics...

[ZabiLegacy]

First off. I know comics, I know super hero fiction. The minute anyone says that a character needs some particular form skill set, wealth, or super power to be a super hero, they aren't thinking in terms of trends. In general what distinctifies a character as a superhero is that they have applied themselves to the ideal of a super hero. He fights crime, wears a costume, works outside of the law, is a moralistic do gooder, and has a secret identity.

Simply put I am not excepting the burden of proof on this one. If you want to show that he isn't a superhero define what a superhero is and why he doesn't apply, because if Kick Ass is a super hero then this guy is too.

I never said GRITTY. I said realistic. Grimdark in general refers to the period during the 90s when Rob Leifeld and the folks at Image comics essentially took over the industry, and stuff like X-Force was popular. I am talking about realism. The best example is the way that comic book trends evolved into the early 80s and mid 2000s and how those were a natural result of the post-Kirby era of comics. Jack Kirby took the fantastical stories of the golden age and worked them with a greater sense of emotional realism. Rather then trying to make the charachters increasingly larger then life, most comic book characters were designed with an intention of including a more human core. The most basic example of which is spiderman.

In fact the entire notion of Samurai Flamenco is fairly reminsct of Spiderman comics. there, the emphasis tends to be on the fact that his sense of responsibility demands that he use hiw abilities to the fullest. As such, the best spiderman comics tend to be when you put him at a mismatch, and see how he manages to overcome entirely by struggling through. Most modern western comics would be very diffrent if Spiderman had never been created.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9n5Rl_s_dA...w/s1600/07.jpg

And I said it was influenced by it, because the director and a number of the animators had actually worked on the Marvel anime. The director of Zetman had been a key animator on Blade.

[kuromitsu]

I don't doubt that you're a superhero expert, but when you talk about superheroes you seem to think entirely in terms of American superhero comics and seem to dismiss the Japanese side. But to be honest I don't see much point in debating this, especially after a single episode. Just don't be disappointed if the show doesn't do what you expect it to do.

[Triple_R]

While anime has been influenced a bit by superhero comics of the west (Tiger and Bunny demonstrates that), it is important to point out that sentai heroes are largely their own thing.

I say "largely" because I recall reading somewhere that sentai heroes were inspired by Spider-Man, and I definitely could see that being the case though I've never seen it confirmed anywhere.

Still, the idea of a heroic guy dressing up from neck-to-toe in a flashy bodysuit, and also wearing a distinctive helmet, to go out and fight crime and/or monsters, belongs to sentai heroes at least as much is it does comic book superheroes. Sentai heroes also generally don't have the godly superpowers of most comic book superheroes - They're just excellent, athletic fighters who usually have nice weapons and/or giant mechas at their disposal.

While it's true that a guy can be labelled a superhero without having superpowers (Batman and Robin being the most prominent examples), they're also definitely the exception and not the rule. In fact, I know some hardcore Batman fans that dislike him even being labeled a superhero.

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I say "largely" because I recall reading somewhere that sentai heroes were inspired by Spider-Man, and I definitely could see that being the case though I've never seen it confirmed anywhere.

While Super Sentai was not inspired by the Japanese Spider-Man show itself, the giant robot that has become synonymous with Super Sentai was taken directly from it (starting with Battle Fever J).

[kuromitsu]

I'd just like to note that sentai is just a subgenre within tokusatsu. Kamen Rider, Ultraman, etc. aren't sentai, and from the looks of it, Samurai Flamenco isn't based on sentai either.

Also just btw:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

While anime has been influenced a bit by superhero comics of the west (Tiger and Bunny demonstrates that)

Tiger and Bunny wasn't "influenced" by American superhero comics as much as it was very intentionally and self-awarely riffing on those tropes and themes. That's also why the show takes place in an English-speaking world and there are cameos of American celebrities/cultural icons.

(This was probably a theme at Sunrise at the time, because Sacred Seven which aired along Tiger & Bunny for a season was basically an animated tokusatsu show, played rather straight.)

(OK, OK, I'll shut up now. :3)