2004-12-10, 21:56 | Link #221 | |
ore wa kanpeki da
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Yet it cannot be activated by anyone other than the prophet. As the fighting ensues she loses her lover and activates this angel or whatever you want to call it. It asks a few questions and decides to obliterate the human race. What was the point of the series? love overcomes hate and all that jazz and as far as that goes it told it pretty well. One could say the same thing for macross plus without all the "liberal" overtones we saw in macross zero If you were expecting some gaint mecha action with flight suits you were surely misled |
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2004-12-11, 02:50 | Link #222 | |
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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IF we know the world will be destroyed at March 2005, then yup I'd say environmentalism in the real world doesn't make any sense. That's why some Christians are against environmentalism, since they think they know the future and that the world will end and be remade by God. But I don't know future, so environmentalism in the real world makes sense to me. So yup, I don't know the future of the real world, and I know the future of the Macross world, that's why environmetalism in Macross seems stupid to me. IF I know the future of the real world, maybe I'll think environmentalism in real world is stupid too. but that's not the case. Last edited by dreamless; 2004-12-11 at 04:28. |
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2004-12-11, 16:15 | Link #223 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2003
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As far as I am concerned, the fact that Macross is set in the future means very little. Kawamori isn't trying to predict the future for us, he's trying to tell us a story about humanity. And in this case that story involves people risking their whole lives for doomed causes. Because we are so inundated with movies and media now, there is no idea that is shocking to us. How many of you went insane with grief when the earth was destroyed at the beginning of SDF Macross? Not one, would be my guess. Because for all the fact that we don't want our own world to die, the earth in the Macross universe meant nothing to us at the time. We knew nothing about the people who lived there, what they did, etc. Now we have a little bit of backstory that, theoretically anyway, will add to the meaning of the Macross series that take place after it. I also disagree that 'technology triumphs over nature'. I would say that man's use of technology balances itself out. Technology in conjunction with human nature drove man to the brink of destruction, and and technololgy in conjunction with another part of human nature brought him back from it. That's the whole dialogue in Macross, right? The pull between the part of us that leads to destruction and the part of us that leads to preservation and culture. But we know that the humans in SDF Macross were devastated when the earth was destroyed. And for all the technology they had, it was nature that brought forth those first few dandelions that Hikaru saw when he was flying patrol, not technology. In that sense, nature triumphs over technology. |
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2004-12-11, 16:46 | Link #224 | |
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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About Communism or whatever, I don't have the slightest idea of what it has to do with this discussion. For your interpretation of the message of the entire Macross series, that's also totally irrelevant to this discussion of whether environmentalism in Macross Zero sounds stupid or not. Although I'd say in Macross world (NOT our real world), it's technology that drives humans to the brink of extinction, it's technology that makes the Earth inhabitable by humans again, and it's technology that saves humanity from certain extinction. So technology triumphs over nature as far as human survival is concerned, because without technology humans will surely go extinct. It's the use of technology that destroys the environment and it's the use of technology that restores it. and no I'm not talking about "human nature" (anyway Zentraedi invasion has nothing to do with human nature), I'm talking about "nature" as in environmentalism. But anyway as far as I see this has nothing to do with whether environmentalism in Macross Zero sounds stupid or not. |
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2004-12-11, 17:54 | Link #225 | ||||
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Join Date: Jun 2003
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Ok, Ok. Let me try again. What my post had to do with environmentalism in Macross Zero is this: If you think about it as a part of the story, rather than as a pre-packaged philosophy bundle, it adds a specific detail to the entirety of the Macross story. The destruction of earth in SDF Macross means a lot more if we know that, not too many years ago, all of these sacrifices were made to save the earth. Individual characters might come to the conclusion that nature should be saved. The Mayan people have a long history of trying to live in harmony with nature. But the things that people learn, and the culture of an ancient race, mean nothing in the long run because it's all destroyed anyway. The drastic change that occurs during and after the Zentradi war are more meaningful if we know about the people who lived in the world before it was destroyed. Just like if you hear that a house has burned down and everyone inside is dead, you might think it's sad that such things happen or not think anything about it at all. But if you knew the people who lived in that house then it would mean a lot more to you.
'Because we know the earth is destroyed, why bother to have the environmentalism theme in Macross Zero?' I say: have it there because it adds more detail to the story. The point of the 'Communism' example is that it is a common thing in human history for people to make massive sacrifices for goals that utterly fail. So I am looking at Macross as Kawamori's attempt to tell a story about humanity, which sometimes includes massive sacrifices that, in the end, meant nothing. A story can be interesting without its characters succeeding. As for this: Quote:
By that logic, you should stop eating and drinking water. You know that you are going to die. So why make the effort? In the end your life won't be preserved. It's a fruitless endeavor. Quote:
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Hmm.. are those explanations any better than the previous post? |
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2004-12-12, 02:09 | Link #227 | ||
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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2004-12-12, 04:38 | Link #228 | ||
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Join Date: Jun 2003
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Hmm.. I'm starting to think that I communicate through irrelevant illustrative examples too often. |
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2004-12-30, 19:45 | Link #229 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Nice anime, a good balance of action/charactersation/story until the ep4 & 5.
Dislikes: Practically every new character is taken out of the picture. The poor resolution with the 2 vs 2 dogfight duel. Dues ex machina ending Like: Thrust-vectoring! I actually prefered it more with the VFs stay in plane mode. The 4-cannon MAC Super VF-0, they showcased the Armoured VF-0 so I was expected it. Nice lead-up but kind of sappy ending. Mainly because I didn't feel that Shin & Sara as a couple was as believable as Roy & Alice. |
2006-02-17, 01:17 | Link #230 |
I My Me Strawberry Eggs
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Problem with Macross Zero fansub translations
In the AnimeOne & ANBU fansub hosted by Animesuki, Shin Kudou is referred to as Lieutenant.
But in the Anime-Fansubs & Animefactory's fansub also hosted by Animesuki, Mao refers to Kudou as Ensign. Both those two separate fansubs refer to Focker as a Major, which is an Air Force rank, not a navy rank. So if these translations are accurate, what is an Air Force major doing out above the sea? Isn't the sea supposed to be the territory of the naval air forces? Many national navies/navys do have their own air forces. The Unification navy may have their own air force as well. (That's only rhetorical question, which I'm using as an example of mistranslating. Soluzar had answered that question in other forum. I wonder what Japanese ranks, which the fansubbers have translated into english, are? Since I am deaf, I don't know what Japanese titles those characters are using in the raw Japanese. So anyone please give me the Japanese military ranks, that the fansubbers equated rather than translated? One should know that one has to properly equate Japanese military ranks with their U.S. military equivalents. Ensign is a naval rank. Lieutenant is both an Air Force and Navy rank, although Lieutenant is a higher rank than Ensign. U.S. Navy----------------------U.S. Army, U.S. Air Force and U.S. Marine Corps Ensign------------------------- Second lieutenant Lieutenant (j.g)-------------- First Lieutenant Lieutenant-------------------- Captain Lieutenant Commander------ Major Commander------------------ Lieutenant-colonel Captain------------------------ Colonel Rear Admiral (lower) --------- Brigadier General Rear Admiral (upper)---------- Major General Vice Admiral-------------------- Lieutenant-General Admiral------------------------ General U.S. Navy: http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...id=65&sid=1287 U.S. Air Force: http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...id=65&sid=1262 Imperial Japanese Army (1931-1945): http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...d=150&sid=1353 Japan Self-Defense Force (present): http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...id=150&sid=876 Imperial Japanese Navy: http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...d=150&sid=1357 Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (present): http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...d=150&sid=2001 Japan Air Defense Force (present): http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...id=150&sid=872 Last edited by stelok; 2006-02-17 at 01:45. |
2006-02-17, 01:59 | Link #231 |
翻訳家わなびぃ
Fansubber
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I haven't looked much in to details on the subject,
but the title translations of those ranks in Japanese SDF don't match the ones shown on this Japanese wikipedia page. As far as I know, there is no Navy equivellant in Japanese SDF system. The only 3 divisions are JASDF (air), JMSDF (maritime), and JGSDF (ground). And what was Kudo's rank exactly? Shoui? Shousa? Either way, there's no such rank in JSDF, so trying to match his title in to JSDF rank is a moot act. From there on, the best the translator can do is ... well, the best guess. So, my point up so far: There's no hard-set rules how forces of armed defense should be grouped. Trying to match different forces's equivellance between different countries are sometimes impossible. Same goes for ranks. Sometimes, you just cannot be absolute with these things. ============================ Also, majority of fansubbers aren't as well-versed in military knowledge as you are. So what they can do is research within certain limit. Macross Zero episode 3 came out over 2.5 years ago. 2.5 years is enough time for enough people to create more websites than we can possibly imagine. That means we had much less resources we could rely on back then. Heh... trying to pick on translation differences on something that old seems very pointless thing to me. Last edited by Sylf; 2006-02-17 at 02:11. |
2006-02-17, 04:35 | Link #232 |
I My Me Strawberry Eggs
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You only researched on post-World War II Japanese military, but you have overlooked the former Imperial Japanese military rank structure from 1931-1945. You should have gone to the links to the former Imperial Japanese Army and Navy in my first post and read the info.
So Kudou's rank is shoui? And then Shousa must be Focker's rank. Both the Japan's Imperial Navy and Imperial Army have the same rank structure as each other, unlike the Japan ground, maritime and air Self-defense Forces. shoui is equivalent to both ensign and second lieutenant. Chuui is equated to both navy lieutenant (j.g) and army first lieutenant. Taii is translated to both navy lieutenant and army captain. Shousa means both lieutenant commander and major. Chuusa equates to both navy commander and army lieutenant colonel. EDIT: Taisa is both Navy Captain and Army Colonel. That explains why the navy pilot Fuchida is referred to as "colonel" in the Pearl Harbor movie and is also referred to as "commander" in the movie called Tora! Tora! Tora! Imperial Japanese Navy rank insignia (1931-1945): http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...d=150&sid=1357 Imperial Japanese Army rank insignia (1931-1945): http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...d=150&sid=1353 Look at both Army and Navy websites and compare the rank systems of the Japanese Imperial Navy and Army. Yes, I know these websites use "sho i", "chu i", "sho sa" without the letter "u" but that's sometimes how they are translated as right as they can be. For example we often hear the name "Keitaro" in the Love Hina anime while"keitarou" in Love Hina manga. Tokyopop uses "Ichiro" in the Sakura Wars manga while the same name is listed as "Ichirou" in Sakura Wars anime on AXN-Asia channel. We hear often "kouhai" and "kohai", which are the same word but with a different spelling. EDIT: The name Kudou can also be said as Kudo. The question is why are Macross producers using the rank system of the extinct Imperial Japanese military from 1931-1945 instead of the rank system of the post-WWII Japan Self-Defense forces? EDIT: But even so, the fansubbers had to know that Focker and Kudou are serving aboard on an aircraft carrier ship which means they are both in the Navy. Japan Self-Defense Force rank insignia (present): http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...id=150&sid=876 Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force rank insignia (present): http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...d=150&sid=2001 Japan Air Defense Force rank insignia(present): http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...id=150&sid=872 If you want to research for military rank structure and insignia, then go to http://uniforminsignia.net/ , not Wikipedia.org. EDIT: perhaps, then the Macross Zero fansubbers should use Royal British air force ranks instead of U.S. military ranks in their translation. I can imagine Squadron Leader Focker and Pilot Officer Shin Kudou. But I know these Macross Zero fansubs are made by Americans. Besides, not many people outside Britain, Canada, Australia, India, Pakistan and other former British colonies are aware of the rank structures of the Royal army, Navy and Air Force. O stands for officer and E stands for enlistee. Royal British Air Force-----------U.S. Air Force (O-1) Pilot Officer---------------Second Lieutenant (O-2) Flying Officer--------------First Lieutenant (O-3) Flight Lieutenant---------Captain (O-4) Squadron Leader--------Major (O-5) Wing Commander-------Lieutenant colonel (O-6) Group Captain------------Colonel (O-7) Air Commodore-----------Brigadier General (O-8) Vice Marshal--------------Major General (O-9) Marshal--------------------Lieutenant General (O-10) Chief Marshal-----------General U.K. Royal Air Force rank system: http://uniforminsignia.net/index.php...d=133&sid=1216 Last edited by stelok; 2006-02-17 at 05:10. |
2008-04-19, 14:33 | Link #236 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Los Angeles
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Awesome research, nicely done. Why the British always have to be different? |
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2008-05-16, 06:46 | Link #238 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Such a nice OVA...with such a dissapointing final.
Nora's death sucked(should have been killed off by Shinn),DDs death sucked(had to be killed by Roy Focker) ,magic crap sucked,many things about this Ep 5 sucked. And this after awesome 4 episodes? Its all you fault AFOS!!!Damn you bird-man!Damn youuuuu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
2008-06-02, 11:57 | Link #239 |
Incoherance is my friend!
Join Date: Dec 2005
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God I hate this parallel story..I don't care if Roy "I'll sleep with anything female" Focker is in it, it skirts around the Macross landing and focus on some obscure story thing....uuhhhggggggggg....frontier is suppose to shed some light on it but good lord it feels as if its adding unneeded plot points....
If Sara and shin didn't get folded off the earth then the whole thing is a travesty to the Macross franchise.... On another note Macross 2 the movie was better....even if it was a mix of southern cross and macross...hell you can even call it a robotech film since its not cannon to the main macross story and its still better..... Now with the ranting out of the way, why they are using a new plot fulcrum to end humanity's warring when they have a big ass ship in the middle of the sea to play with I do not know...sure there are plenty of alien races and the universe to play with story wise but....bbllaahhhhhhh... I'l like to see a 13 ep season or maybe a full 26 ep season to flush..er...flesh this thing out, have the bridman thing run in a kind of parallel to the UN coming around macross, then with other events we can ping back and froth ending it with the earth coming together, I mean there are good war story's and UN politic story's to hash out here, for me macross is as much story and character relations as it is mech action. Anyone have a clue what Frontier is going to do with "zero" in ep 10? edit one final jaby jab would like to see a OVA finish up macross itself as well, well not a bad cliffhanger a 3-6 ep ova to get it near where 7 starts would not be a bad thing. Someone mentioned plus....this is what I think abotu plus a AI construct of a singer gains control over a city/fighters to steal away the singers ex pilot lover...... gggaaaaaaaa it burns!
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Last edited by ZippyDSM; 2008-06-02 at 12:07. |
2008-06-02, 13:18 | Link #240 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
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You know why the UN wasn't using the big ship at New South Antaria?
They're still refurbishing a piece of junk! Was it supposed to shoot that alien fleet unprovoked and we're not firing it? Oops there goes our anti-gravity generators! What our fold engine disappeared?! Oh great we also brought the entire Island, the two warships with us! Goes to show Macross humans don't know much of alien technology then. Also it is not a parallel story it is a prequel showing an incident during the unification war. |
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