Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

There is a flat out difference here: the prior scenes are vastly shorter than this one, and were basically "quirks" to speak of.
And I really can't call this episode any relevant to character progress whatsoever: it started from a casual premise (as in, Karen hell bent to meet Suruga), but literally sidetracked into a random pandering theme.
I wouldn't have that much problem if it was a much shorter scene, but this is a huge shoehorned fanservice scene taking a full episode, with little relevancy to the current plot.

I was curious how long the scene lasted, and guess what it was 3:45 toothbushing and about 9 minutes of built-up and resolution. Hitagi dressing (the longest of the examples I mentioned) was the same, if not longer.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I won't disagree with that, but it is the very reason why I disagree with your initial comment, insisting it should be enjoyed if unbiased, which is not a statement that can be applied considering what we were presented here.

Let me clarify, unbiased as in hating eroticism or incest is what will obviously drive one into a rage, in addition to anticipating to see certain events and characters and be treated with others will the least annoy you. Being unbiased and not building baseless expectation helps a lot to enjoy the authors works, since he does a pretty good job to be unpredictable both with monogatari and katanagatari... we'll see about medaka box this spring.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

As far as I know most adaptions don't cover every paragraph of material there is. They don't have time for that and if they do that it usually leads to horrid pacing. This is not a book, this is an anime.

Well then, maybe Shaft should improvise.

I know! They should show Araragi doing the fire bee transfer kiss, even though the novel intentionally skipped describing it!

And while they are at it, why not animate the Hitagi sex scene? You know, the scene that was never described in the novel.

This episode is exactly what the book was about. And the reason it was animated in an arousing fashion was because it was the only way to properly portray the scene.

If Shaft just wanted to titillate, they have missed many chances to do so because they decided to only animate what was in the book. No more, no less.

Having Araragi taking Hitagi's virginity on screen would certainly get people hot and bothered, right? So why not? Who cares if that wasn't what the author wanted?

Some things in an adaptation will always have to be cut. But if you want something cut because you are offended at the characters themselves, then there is little we can do. Araragi is a little too close to his sisters. This is part of his character. You taking that out means you want a different main character. And after that you might as well watch a different anime.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Let me clarify, unbiased as in hating eroticism or incest is what will obviously drive one into a rage, in addition to anticipating to see certain events and characters and be treated with others will the least annoy you. Being unbiased and not building baseless expectation helps a lot to enjoy the authors works, since he does a pretty good job to be unpredictable both with monogatari and katanagatari... we'll see about medaka box this spring.

And there's no bias in liking incest?

Liking incest is no less a personal bias/preference than disliking it is.


And it's not a "baseless expectation" to expect a sequel to be similar to its original, because sequels usually are similar to the original.

The differences between Bake and Nise are pretty substantial, imo. It's only natural that many people who liked Bake would dislike Nise (or at least some episodes of Nise).

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Well then, maybe Shaft should improvise.

I know! They should show Araragi doing the fire bee transfer kiss, even though the novel intentionally skipped describing it!

And while they are at it, why not animate the Hitagi sex scene? You know, the scene that was never described in the novel.

This episode is exactly what the book was about. And the reason it was animated in an arousing fashion was because it was the only way to properly portray the scene.

If Shaft just wanted to titillate, they have missed many chances to do so because they decided to only animate what was in the book. No more, no less.

Having Araragi taking Hitagi's virginity on screen would certainly get people hot and bothered, right? So why not? Who cares if that wasn't what the author wanted?

Some things in an adaptation will always have to be cut. But if you want something cut because you are offended at the characters themselves, then there is little we can do. Araragi is a little too close to his sisters. This is part of his character. You taking that out means you want a different main character. And after that you might as well watch a different anime.

You're grossly overstating your argument.

Disliking one element of a character doesn't mean you want an entirely different main character. It certainly doesn't mean you want an entirely different anime.

Also, people are free to like some of a book, and dislike some of the same book.

When people do reviews, they frequently talk about the parts they like and the parts they disliked. There's nothing illegitimate about that.

[Demi.]

My stance is...even if the series is a perfect replica of the novel, that doesn't exclude the episode from criticism. If the source material is displeasing they can either A.) skip it or B.) animate it...And if they opt to animate it, then it's subject to criticism...All it means is that the source material was equally as bad as the animated version. Though I can't even begin to fathom why an entire episode needed to be dedicated to what seemed like nothing more than incestual pandering...Was this scene in the novel really that long?

4/10

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Demi.

My stance is...even if the series is a perfect replica of the novel, that doesn't exclude the episode from criticism. If the source material is displeasing they can either A.) skip it or B.) animate it...And if they opt to animate it, then it's subject to criticism...All it means is that the source material was equally as bad as the animated version.

Very. Well. Said.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I am now reminded of a flashback to this website years ago, back when the anime Mai Otome was airing.

Spoiler for End of Mai Otome:

Near the end of the show, the greatest humanoid weapon of the villain was soon to be sent out and devastate the planet.

Yet the night before, she made an offer to her adopted father, who she adored. Take her body, thus disabling her powers, and she wouldn't go out and kill millions tomorrow.

In short, avoiding a war by having consensual, non-blood related incest. Her adopted father isn't even old.

Now, obviously the offer was rejected, or you wouldn't get the finale battle. But...

Animesuki forums went berserk with posters saying it is wrong to take the offer. The anger at the suggested offer of incest was explosive. The idea is it is best to let her go out and kill innocent people in a war that didn't have to happen, all because "incest is wrong".

I guess my point is, logic rarely matters when incest is concerned.

[graywolf202]

This is a useful tool, commonly found in the range of 6 inches long, the functioning of which is enjoyed by members of both sexes. It is usually found hung, dangling loosely, ready for instant action. It boasts of a clump of little hairy things at one end
and a small hole at the other. In use, it is quickly inserted, almost always willingly, sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly, into a warm, fleshy, moist opening where it is thrust in and drawn out again and again many times in succession, often quickly and
accompanied by squirming bodily movements. Anyone found listening in will most surely recognize the rhythmic, pulsing sound resulting from the well-lubricated movements. When finally withdrawn, it leaves behind a juicy, frothy, sticky white
substance, some of which will need cleaning from the outer surfaces of the opening and some from its long glistening shaft. After everything is done and the flowing and cleansing liquids have ceased emanating, it is returned to its freely hanging state of rest, ready for yet another bit of action, hopefully reaching its bristling climax twice or three times a day, but often much less. What is it?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Demi.

My stance is...even if the series is a perfect replica of the novel, that doesn't exclude the episode from criticism. If the source material is displeasing they can either A.) skip it or B.) animate it...And if they opt to animate it, then it's subject to criticism...All it means is that the source material was equally as bad as the animated version. Though I can't even begin to fathom why an entire episode needed to be dedicated to what seemed like nothing more than incestual pandering...Was this scene in the novel really that long?

4/10

"If the Source Material is displeasing"?

What does that suppose to imply?

What is it that you are displeased about? The subject matter? You saw something you don't like to see? Or does your personal beliefs mandate that you attack it?

I would like to know what is suppose to be displeasing.

As for "pandering"... Pandering assumes that the subject matter is offering what the audience wanted. Now, you obviously don't want it, so how could it be pandering then?

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

That wasn't the only problem with the episode. Araragi rubbing his foot on his sister's head whilst she was begging him to take her virginity (I swear this is what I read from the subs). Yea... no wonder some people in the west think anime is very sexist. Not to mention the fact this episode had no purpose as it didn't develop character and the only worthwhile thing we got was that Araragi agreed to introduce Kanbaru to his sister at the very end of the ep.

I'm not even going to begin to try to defend the toothbrush scene, but I think you missed the point of the groveling scene. She was begging him to let her meet Kanbaru and offering increasingly more valuable "services". Koyomi was stepping on her head because he thought groveling over something like this was disgusting and refused all her offers because they disgusted him. So, it's sort of the opposite of sexism. He thinks she should have more pride.

Medaka Box

Unless they skip past the beginning extremely quickly, Medaka Box will be pretty bad in completely different ways.

[Westlo]

Shaft have the courage to pander what Nisio had the courage to write, I the one have the courage to admire that. /mayoi

[dragon4dudes]

A few things to say.

First, episode was definitely different. It definitely instigated a new fetish. Although, it probably already existed. This point brings me to...

Second, the oral hygiene brother document is really long but interesting. Attraction as a result, if not direct, of toothbrushing? I'm curious as to why it occurs. hm... Though it might be that toothbrushing is quite a personal thing and requires getting close to the person physically. Interesting that one of the important moments in the story is of Bakemonogatari in the background.

Third, there might be something about wanting to use the novel's names. As a result, Shaft became somewhat bound to the 2 chapters. I mean Bakemonogatari spanned 2 books if I recalled correctly, which I believe allowed it to be 1 cour with 5 arcs.

Also possible is that the it was requested by fans that this occur, animators/director were bored, they wanted to stretch their creativity, I don't know.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

"If the Source Material is displeasing"?

What does that suppose to imply?

What is it that you are displeased about? The subject matter? You saw something you don't like to see? Or does your personal beliefs mandate that you attack it?

I would like to know what is suppose to be displeasing.

As for "pandering"... Pandering assumes that the subject matter is offering what the audience wanted. Now, you obviously don't want it, so how could it be pandering then?

Displeasing to the viewer, not me in particular. So they may find it displeasing for any number of reasons; or even enjoy it. To whichever end that might meet.

As far as incest goes, I'm definitely against it in RL, however, I have no problems with it in anime. I just found this episode to be extremely pointless. Honestly, if getting off to this episode was not the point of it, then I don't rightly know what was.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Something else came to mind; a few years ago I found out that there are fans who download and watch anime in the Gaza Strip. Of all places.

One wonders what they think about this episode of Nise. But no doubt way before the toothbrushing, they must have seen far more scenes of "inappropriate" nature every week, in every new episode.

One does have to wonder, if they give 1/10 and be just as offend, as people here. Or maybe they don't? After all, they are breaking dogma just by watching any of it.

As far as incest goes, I'm definitely against it in RL, however, I have no problems with it in anime. I just found this episode to be extremely pointless. Honestly, if getting off to this episode was not the point of it, then I don't rightly know what was.

The point is Araragi and his sister are too close. That's the plot of that chapter. It is about finding out more about Araragi's family relationships.

That's what all the anime was ever really about. Relationships. Good ones, bad ones, broken ones, violent ones, desperate ones. Hitagi and her mum, Hanekawa and her whole family, the blood bond between Araragi and Shinobu.

[risingstar3110]

I just have two questions to those who rate the episode 1/10 (or somewhere around there).

Are you confident that this episode will receive bad reception from the audience? And if it does not, do you consider that maybe: the fact that you do not like it was down to your taste, or you are not part of its intended audiences (rather than the directors' abilities or choice of adaptation)?

I completely understand the outrage through. Excessive fanservices, maybe. But maybe the introduction of incest element (one of the more sensitive taboo) into the story was the main cause of the split. I means if Kanbaru was the main character (of her new arc perhaps) and Shaft spend a whole chapter on her flirting with... Karen, right in front of a helpless Araragi. Then i expect non-yuri audiences will also be outrage. Actually earlier, some people couldn't stand the BSDM play between Araragi and Hitagi. Or the 'pedo promotion' screen of Aaaragi and Shinobu's bath. It's all on hit-or-miss, as i think Nisemonogatari really aims on targeted audiences rather than the mainstream like back in Bakemonogatari

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

That wasn't the only problem with the episode. Araragi rubbing his foot on his sister's head whilst she was begging him to take her virginity (I swear this is what I read from the subs).

except the fact that Araragi DIDN'T WANT what she offered


Myself not a huge fan of incest, nor I'm offended by the idea. What I love about this episode is how they were able to portray a seemingly innocent act in an absolutely outrageous way that it is hilarious. It's like speaking in sexual euphemism yet nothing actually is happening. I quite like those in-your-face subtlety that puts a mockery into the genre. Yes, it's the most outlandish one to date, but I fail to see why people should be offended by it. It's a ridiculous scene in a show that is often borderline ridiculous, which means that it fits in well. It's supposed to be loud, it's supposed to be obnoxious, because it's the whole point of that scene, and the anime is doing it's job showing that.

Keep in mind that every time an arc finishes the heroine often spend an episode with Araragi in the following arc, this no exception. We still got 3 more episodes to come, plenty of time to develop the second story. You should have realised that the incest joke will be poked at in Nisemonogatari since the girls are his two little sisters.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And there's no bias in liking incest?

Liking incest is no less a personal bias/preference than disliking it is.

I don't care about incest, but obviously others do, and instead of judging the scene itself, they judge the relationship between the characters involved, in other words if it was Hitagi in Karen's place, the 80% would be 90%

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And it's not a "baseless expectation" to expect a sequel to be similar to its original, because sequels usually are similar to the original.

The differences between Bake and Nise are pretty substantial, imo. It's only natural that many people who liked Bake would dislike Nise (or at least some episodes of Nise).

You're grossly overstating your argument.

Disliking one element of a character doesn't mean you want an entirely different main character. It certainly doesn't mean you want an entirely different anime.

Having watched Bake-, and read Kizu-, Nise- the only difference I can spot is that storytelling in Nise- is much more focused in Nise-. IMHO, a lot of people didn't like Bake- but Hitagi, and expect the story to revolve around her and not around Koyomi. Granted she is an interesting character to read, but without the rest of the girls Bake- would be another boring romance (in my biased opinion)

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Also, people are free to like some of a book, and dislike some of the same book.

When people do reviews, they frequently talk about the parts they like and the parts they disliked. There's nothing illegitimate about that.

The annoying part in each episode's thread is that I read the same complain over and over again, that does not mean that one shouldn't complain, as well as for another to point out that this is pointless and repetitive

Originally Posted by Demi.

My stance is...even if the series is a perfect replica of the novel, that doesn't exclude the episode from criticism. If the source material is displeasing they can either A.) skip it or B.) animate it...And if they opt to animate it, then it's subject to criticism...All it means is that the source material was equally as bad as the animated version. Though I can't even begin to fathom why an entire episode needed to be dedicated to what seemed like nothing more than incestual pandering...Was this scene in the novel really that long?

4/10

The series is not a perfect replica, there are a lot of lines cut out already, check Shikijin's posts, unless you want to read the novels. By the way, the scene was about a fifth or sixth of the novel.

[jeroz]

just curious, if it's hitagi or kanbaru that's on the receiving side of the toothbrushing would it be better for you guys?

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

The annoying part in each episode's thread is that I read the same complain over and over again, that does not mean that one shouldn't complain, as well as for another to point out that this is pointless and repetitive

I could say the same, old, repetitive and annoying "HNNNNNNNNNNG" and "OMG, XYZ Fanservice scene is so good!" comments that I see on every speck of fanservice from any series (not just Nise). This toothbrush scene everyone is making a fuss over, I find it incredibly irritating much like you might find the same old "Incest is bad" irritating.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

I could say the same, old, repetitive and annoying "HNNNNNNNNNNG" and "OMG, XYZ Fanservice scene is so good!" comments that I see on every speck of fanservice from any series.

Well one tends to be a boring one sentence post, while the other type tends to get really long and irrelevant to the original topic.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by jeroz

just curious, if it's hitagi or kanbaru that's on the receiving side of the toothbrushing would it be better for you guys?

I can't even imagine how Hitagi will be in that situation so can't comment on that.

Kanbaru, eh? Let's see... Kanbaru want Koyomi to introduce her to the famous sister Karen, whom she absolutely adore. So after offering her virginity and was rejected, it all comes down to the toothbrush game (somehow it's really befitting, make me wondering if the screen was written for Kanbaru at the beginning).Then Hitagi step in, and ntr moment, and decide to pass on their death penalty.....

OK, the problem with Kanbaru is, it will seems much more serious rather than playing it for joke like this episode. Nadeko on another hand could be. But she already got the similar thing in Twister game