Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

lol talking like that for Destiny, the show where Kira and co look like they're in the wrong making everything worse but then we find out they're right all along.

I'm talking about Kira's reason for interfering in the Orb battles. This has nothing to do with the Destiny Plan.

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by monster

If Kira was talking to Shinn, or anyone else not directly related to Cagalli, then yeah, it wouldn't make sense to bring up her crying. But Kira is talking to Athrun, and that makes it personal. The method of transmission is appropriate given Athrun's relationship to Cagalli. Kira is pointing out that Cagalli is hurting and, more importantly, why she's hurting. If it's not wrong, then why do you think it's bad writing?

As I said before, "I'm saying that the writing for this dialogue was bad enough that people continue to use as an example of Destiny's flaws."

In other words, I'm okay with the underlying premise of Kira's words, his intentions. I just don't like the actual words being said. I don't like the words in the dialogue.

An example would be a politician giving a speech that perfectly addresses the issue but the majority listening don't understand what's being said at all.

Hence why most viewers of Destiny hate on the Cagalli is crying because they interpret it as merely Cagalli is crying so that justifies everything I'm doing. If the majority of people don't understand, then that's a bad speech. Same with the dialogue in this scene.

Understand now?

[monster]

Originally Posted by zeroexia

As I said before, "I'm saying that the writing for this dialogue was bad enough that people continue to use as an example of Destiny's flaws."

In other words, I'm okay with the underlying premise of Kira's words, his intentions. I just don't like the actual words being said. I don't like the words in the dialogue.

An example would be a politician giving a speech that perfectly addresses the issue but the majority listening don't understand what's being said at all.

Hence why most viewers of Destiny hate on the Cagalli is crying because they interpret it as merely Cagalli is crying so that justifies everything I'm doing. If the majority of people don't understand, then that's a bad speech. Same with the dialogue in this scene.

Understand now?

I see. Thank you for explaining your position.

For my part, I think it's clear where Kira is coming from when he said to Athrun, "You are attacking the exact thing that Cagalli is trying to save."

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by monster

I see. Thank you for explaining your position.

For my part, I think it's clear where Kira is coming from when he said to Athrun, "You are attacking the exact thing that Cagalli is trying to save."

Yea, but unfortunately you're a rarity. It seems clear to me too but most people don't seem to have the insight.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by zeroexia

The reason that's all Kira did was because Athrun was preventing him from doing any further. As I said before, there's no reason he wouldn't be able to prevent most of the causalities as previously.

And him killing the commander isn't Shinn's fault although I'm pretty sure the Impulse's cameras would have been able to have seen the commander considering the Impulse looks at the bridge for over 5 seconds. However it does show a decrease in his "good guy protagonist" status in doing that.

Minerva would still have been attacked regardless of what Kira did before hand. The EF and Orb were always out to get them, waiting for them to leave port. Besides the EF fleet itself wasn't greatly damaged with Orb always receiving most of the damage due to being used as shield. So even if Orb's fleet was destroyed by Minerva in the first engagement, there would still be an EF fleet to face.

Besides the damage to the Minerva from the previous battle was repaired.

That's irrelevant anyway considering the Minerva would likely have been destroyed if Kira wasn't there. It's true regardless of what happened before that this time Kira saved the Minerva.

Yet he didn't as he couldn't. He should have known how Athrun would react considering what happened last time. So there's reason right there.

Doubtful he saw the commander and in his rage he wouldn't have recognized him anyway. Such as near the end of Destiny where he was overcome by rage and adrenaline that he went berserk and couldn't even see Lunamaria right in front of him even though he had swore to protect her.

Not all of was repaired and Heine is still dead.

This situation was Kira's fault in the first place because of his past actions. They only needed one more guy on their side and it would have been Heine had he not died due to Kira's actions. Kira's actions last time also saved the Fleets.

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Yet he didn't as he couldn't. He should have known how Athrun would react considering what happened last time. So there's reason right there.

Doubtful he saw the commander and in his rage he wouldn't have recognized him anyway. Such as near the end of Destiny where he was overcome by rage and adrenaline that he went berserk and couldn't even see Lunamaria right in front of him even though he had swore to protect her.

Not all of was repaired and Heine is still dead.

This situation was Kira's fault in the first place because of his past actions. They only needed one more guy on their side and it would have been Heine had he not died due to Kira's actions. Kira's actions last time also saved the Fleets.

I'm unsure where you're going with this.

Firstly. you are agreeing with me that Kira couldn't do as he wanted because of Athrun. I was saying that if Athrun didn't interfere, then Kira would have saved lives . I don't see an issue there.

Secondly, we also both agree that Shinn was in rage mode without the ability to discern the commander if he could have seen him anyway.We both agree that he can't think clearly at all during rage mode. This doesn't change at all during the entire show. I am saying that it reduces his good guy protagonist status as a result of him killing the guy that saved him and never getting a chance to grief or care at all.

Thirdly, I concede that the Minerva lost some fighting strength due to the last battle due to Kira, especially due Heine's death. ( Although I really doubt that Heine would have made a huge difference against 2 fleets. )

However in this battle, Kira did save the Minerva. That's set in stone. You can blame Kira for the situation they were in and losing to the point where Kira had to save them but it's still a fact that they were saved by Kira. Anything else you can decide but that's pretty much fact. Blame Kira if you want, join the huge club on the internet.

I have more of a problem with the fact it takes 2 entire fleets, even granting Orb did most of the fighting, with all of their mobile suits to destroy one space ship and its 4-5 mobile suits. And they fail miserably. It's crazy.

[Aquaman OS]

Anyone else find it extremely hypocritical that Shinn sees nothing wrong with killing Auel, but freezes up against Stellar and attacks Kira in vengence when he finally puts her down despite knowing both of them are extended?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Anyone else find it extremely hypocritical that Shinn sees nothing wrong with killing Auel, but freezes up against Stellar and attacks Kira in vengence when he finally puts her down despite knowing both of them are extended?

Not entirely hypocritical. He made an emotional connection with Stella, likely to fill the gap that his sister/family left. I suppose it is hypocritical but it's not like he could control how he felt about her.

Plus, at this point he doesn't know Stella's true identity. At this point he's not equating the two. He sees the Extendeds as faceless enemies--it's not until he downs the rampaging Gaia that he realizes Stella's one of them, and at that point Auel's already dead. And he never really finds out about Sting, IIRC.

@Washu: can you cut back on all the pony pictures?

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Plus, at this point he doesn't know Stella's true identity. At this point he's not equating the two. He sees the Extendeds as faceless enemies--it's not until he downs the rampaging Gaia that he realizes Stella's one of them, and at that point Auel's already dead. And he never really finds out about Sting, IIRC.

That happened two episodes ago. He already knows Stella is an Extended, and figures out Auel is one too when fighting him. And still kills him without a care.

[The American Average]

why would Shinn even care, just because Auel is an extended? Auel is the pilot of the Abyss gundam, a suit they've been trying to shoot down for along time. If Shinn would have played the compassion card with Auel who knows what would have happened. most likely someone else or even him would have died or got seriously injured, its not like the Minerva and its crew was in a spot to do anything but fight for there lives

[Aquaman OS]

Because Shinn later makes a big deal about how its unacceptable to him if Stella dies because she was an Extended and wasn't a bad person at heart, Logos just made her that way. To the point where he gives her back to the EA, lets her blow up more of Berlin while he tries to save her, and hates Kira till the end of the story because he took her down, despite her blowing up Berlin and needing to be stopped. Nor does Shinn ever acknowledge or care that all the death in Berlin is on him because he gave her back. Stella is seemingly more important to him than the other Zaft soliders and civillains in Berlin.

And yes I know it's because she's triggering his sister issues. I'm just calling him out on this. The "It's because she's an extended" thing is obviously not sincere because he doesn't care if other extendeds die. Just Stella, because of his issues.

Just pointing out how Shinn's empathy is very selective and based on how they compare to his own issues (little sister figures and dead families basically).

[GN0010 Nosferatu]

Shinn touched Stella's boobs. That is why he froze. He needed to touch them one last time. You gotta think in that situation.

[Destined_Fate]

Pseudo-Incest is a no go. Shinn doesn't have those desires for Stella as she reminds him of his little sister.

Originally Posted by zeroexia

I'm unsure where you're going with this.

Firstly. you are agreeing with me that Kira couldn't do as he wanted because of Athrun. I was saying that if Athrun didn't interfere, then Kira would have saved lives . I don't see an issue there.

Secondly, we also both agree that Shinn was in rage mode without the ability to discern the commander if he could have seen him anyway.We both agree that he can't think clearly at all during rage mode. This doesn't change at all during the entire show. I am saying that it reduces his good guy protagonist status as a result of him killing the guy that saved him and never getting a chance to grief or care at all.

Thirdly, I concede that the Minerva lost some fighting strength due to the last battle due to Kira, especially due Heine's death. ( Although I really doubt that Heine would have made a huge difference against 2 fleets. )

However in this battle, Kira did save the Minerva. That's set in stone. You can blame Kira for the situation they were in and losing to the point where Kira had to save them but it's still a fact that they were saved by Kira. Anything else you can decide but that's pretty much fact. Blame Kira if you want, join the huge club on the internet.

I have more of a problem with the fact it takes 2 entire fleets, even granting Orb did most of the fighting, with all of their mobile suits to destroy one space ship and its 4-5 mobile suits. And they fail miserably. It's crazy.

Unintentionally killing. Kira unintentionally killed Nicol, is he a bad guy in SEED? Andrew killed a bunch of people, is he a bad guy too?

As I said, Kira shouldn't have been there or in the earlier battle that got Heine killed. The Extendeds survived because of Kira appearing last time and Heine died because of Kira's interference. The Minerva would have been in far better shape had Kira not been bothering them from before. Especially when you consider that Shinn has the ability to sink every ship out there in short succession once he goes SEED.

So yes, I can blame Kira as they would never have needed saving if he hadn't messed things up earlier and got Heine killed. Thus Kira manufactured his "rescue" by putting them in a position where they needed rescuing as had he not attacked them last time or got Heine killed than the Minerva wouldn't need rescuing.

[kaito-kid]

Unintentionally killing. Kira unintentionally killed Nicol, is he a bad guy in SEED?

He killed Nicol.. That's that! unintentional or not. Does that make him the bad guy? Yeah it does. From Athrun's POV and that of Nicol's parents Kira is definitely the bad guy, and rightfully so.

[monster]

You people act like we're talking about a crime, here.

Kira killed Nichol in a war, intentional or not has nothing to do with it. The same thing with Shinn. The grief and hate will still be there regardless of intent, but it doesn't matter anyway because there is a certain level of understanding that people might die in war.

That said, I think zeroexia only meant bad guy in terms of how the general audience sees it, and there is quite a difference between seeing Shinn angrily swing that sword with no remorse afterward and Kira having remorse after doing the deed.

Technically speaking, they are both justified due to the war, but the impression left on the audience might not be the same.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Finally, the remaster is reaching Destiny Astray manga:

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I must say, Gundam + backpack + camera = something all journalists should have

[The American Average]

i'd love to see some type of cameo for the manga guys as well as Sven from Stargazer. in the remaster, i bet Sven will happen but manga guys eh doubtful

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Pseudo-Incest is a no go. Shinn doesn't have those desires for Stella as she reminds him of his little sister.



Unintentionally killing. Kira unintentionally killed Nicol, is he a bad guy in SEED? Andrew killed a bunch of people, is he a bad guy too?

As I said, Kira shouldn't have been there or in the earlier battle that got Heine killed. The Extendeds survived because of Kira appearing last time and Heine died because of Kira's interference. The Minerva would have been in far better shape had Kira not been bothering them from before. Especially when you consider that Shinn has the ability to sink every ship out there in short succession once he goes SEED.

So yes, I can blame Kira as they would never have needed saving if he hadn't messed things up earlier and got Heine killed. Thus Kira manufactured his "rescue" by putting them in a position where they needed rescuing as had he not attacked them last time or got Heine killed than the Minerva wouldn't need rescuing.

monster's got what I meant.

The line between good and evil in war is always blurry but since Gundam is a fictional show presented by a fixed narrative, the actions of certain characters are framed differently. Similar to how one's hero is another's villain. It's all about the way the actions are presented that determine who's right.

In Shinn's case, of course for ZAFT he's a hero for destroying the enemy. But for ORB and EF, he's could be seen as a crazed murderer or something to that effect.

For us, the people watching the show, we see his rage and quite frankly his mental instability. That's the way Fukuda decided to show Shinn. That's why we get all those screaming and crazy-eyed shots of Shinn. And this is basically how Shinn fights all the way to the end of the show. Screaming and with crazy rage eyes. And we know later that Shinn was serving on the "wrong side", as decided by the story.

So combine Shinn acting like a crazy murderer without feelings for killing others and serving as a puppet for the "evil dictator" Durundal. We don't get a "good guy" in the frame of the story anymore.

I was noting that this scene is the start of his descent into the "bad guy" role in the story. Then Kira and co. return as the "heroes" as determined by the story.

Now, you can disagree that Kira and co. are right or wrong but the show clearly shows that Kira and co. are the "heroes" of the plot at the end. That's why Shinn joins them at the end, showing he's "good" again at the end. ( I myself was dissatisfied with the treatment of Shinn in the story. He should have been able to recognize his own problems and reform like a proper protagonist but he never gets the chance to. Bad plot writing once again. )

Now for Kira, as I said before, I agree that it was Kira's fault for the position that the Minerva was in before. BUT it still doesn't change that without Kira's intervention in the second battle, they would have died. That's the only thing I'm saying. Stating a fact of the show. Whether or not you want to blame Kira for the situation that resulted in him saving them is up to you. That's your opinion. I don't really care about whether or not Kira is at fault.

I just think that Athrun should have allowed Kira to stop the fighting because think about it. All those Orb people died because Kira didn't stop Shinn. And why didn't he? because Athrun prevented him. Lives could have been saved like in the first battle if Kira was allowed to stop the fighting. It is clear that the death toll in the first battle was low because of Kira's intervention. If Kira didn't intervene in the first battle, it would have ended in massive casualties like the second.

That's why Kira was pissed off at Athrun. Athrun had decided to willingly aid the Minerva to kill Orb soldiers. In other words, he condones the loss of all those lives. Kira doesn't want them to die. That's why he's asking Athrun why Athrun's telling him that nothing should be done to stop the deaths.

So Athrun looks like a jerk for wanting people to die. Deaths that could be avoided.

[Hagoshod]

aaand Kira comes off as being a self-obsessed warmonger who attacked Athrun to begin while denying his responsibility in killing the ZAFT engineers manning the Tannhauser and Heine's death, and it's okay when he does it because CAGALLI IS CRYING somehow supersedes every other possible ethical viewpoint.

Deaths that could have been avoided.

[zeroexia]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

aaand Kira comes off as being a self-obsessed warmonger who attacked Athrun to begin while denying his responsibility in killing the ZAFT engineers manning the Tannhauser and Heine's death, and it's okay when he does it because CAGALLI IS CRYING somehow supersedes every other possible ethical viewpoint.

Deaths that could have been avoided.

Sigh. You're making the same exact mistake most people make. As it has been said already, it's not because CAGALLI IS CRYIN OMG THEREFORE I CAN DO ANYTHING.

KIRA SAYS (word for word from the translation on youtube) :

"I know what you're saying but...
But at this moment Cagalli is crying!

She's crying right now, because she didn't want things to turn out like this!
Why can't you understand that?!

And yet,are you saying that this battle, these sacrifices...can't be helped?
That this is all Orb's and Cagalli's fault?!
When you say that, you are attacking the exact thing Cagalli is trying to save!

If so, then I must defeat you!"

Where should we focus on in this dialogue? Is it the CAGALLI IS CRYING? No.

Reading comprehension please. You must have done some of that in school.

You focus on "And yet,are you saying that this battle, these sacrifices...can't be helped? That this is all Orb's and Cagalli's fault?!When you say that, you are attacking the exact thing Cagalli is trying to save! "

You focus on the why she's crying.


And where is this "self-obsessed warmonger" you're talking about? I don't think you understand what the word "warmonger" means.

Here's a definition for you from the Merriam-Webster.

warmonger- a person who wants a war or tries to make other people want to start or fight a war

Now think again. If the objective of Kira and the Three Ship Alliance is to end the war, are they warmongers? BY DEFINITION, they are not.

Furthermore, Kira fired at the Tannhauser to prevent the deaths of all the people that would die from its blast. More people would have died if he didn't prevent it. Same thing with Kira killing Stella in the Destroy. If he didn't, even more people would have died. To save more lives, he chose the option with the least possible losses.

And Kira fully knows that his actions result in deaths. HE SAYS IT TO ATHRUN when they met. However he tries to minimize the deaths by disabling when possible.

And Heine didn't die because of Kira, he died because he was in the way of Gaia and didn't move and because he had a limited life span to begin with, he was going to die because he was merely a guest character for T.M. Revolution.

I can't believe I have to explain this. Is the hate and ignorance so thick that people can't comprehend simple things like this?