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View Poll Results: Is Sasuke's Revenge Justifiable? | |||
Yes: All Konohanians (?) deserve to be felled by Sasuke's blade... | 3 | 5.36% | |
Somewhat: The Elders (and those like them) are to blame, so they should get what's coming to them... | 24 | 42.86% | |
No: Revenge is never justified, no matter how monstrous the criminal/action is... | 8 | 14.29% | |
No: Revenge may be justifiable, but Sasuke's isn't... | 21 | 37.50% | |
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll |
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2012-01-08, 21:02 | Link #61 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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also, assuming this war isnt the last arc of the manga, he could form his own uchiha village and be a constant threat to the others. he could also gain rinnegan, maybe be the juubi's jinchuuriki, it could go on and on. but yes i think it is inevitable that naruto will eventually get him to turn good, even if its just for a few seconds before death. hopefully kishi can do it without making it ridiculous =) |
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2012-01-09, 11:53 | Link #62 |
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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I don't think Sasuke will even get the satisfaction of killing the elders tbh. They just don't seem to matter that much any more. If they do actually die, I could see them sacrificing themselves as a way of atonement, but I don't think it'll happen.
As for Sasuke going crazy, I think the sharingan itself is largely to blame. Pretty much every Uchiha with extremely powerful eyes was crazy. Karin even noted that his chakra becomes colder and more evil as his powers develop. |
2012-01-09, 12:05 | Link #63 | |
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Spoiler for manga:
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2012-01-10, 09:16 | Link #64 |
Upon a wishing Star
Join Date: Dec 2011
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I like to think the Sharingan as a great power.
And as Uncle Ben once said , "with Great Power comes Great responsibilities." I'm just sayin. Look at all those with godlike powers and half of them became war torn killing machines of death. About Sasuke's chakra becoming colder and darker , its more of his hatred growing instead of his powers developing. Surely his powers are increasing near tenfold , but so is his hatred. Each time his hatred for something increases his strength increases. Hatred overwhelms a person and Sasuke is exactly just that as he lets himself be blinded by hatred. Thats why his chakra slowly deviates to be colder and more evil as his hatred increases. Thanks to a certain someone whispering warped and twisted ideas to him 24/7
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2012-01-10, 13:23 | Link #65 |
Smurfee
Join Date: Jun 2008
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The thing is Sasuke is vengeful because he didn't get the justice that was deserved.
People want justice and since justice wasn't fulfilled it's only natural to turn to revenge. The Elders should not get away with their atrocious deed of Uchiha Genocide because of the 9 tailed fox attack which the clan was wrongfully accused for and not given a fair trail to prove the misdeed, they were ostracized by the village for the act of one Uchiha outcast aside from that there is also the Senju against Uchiha vibe so they would not deal with them. And I don't see why people are praising Itachi as if he's done the most honorable deed in history that requires a humanitarian award. Hell, from looking at his past actions I would probably see him as the prime reason for making Sasuke turn out this way and for all the other dreadful shit that is currently going on in the Narutoverse. Many people state that duty he performed to wipe out the clan for the sake of the village peace so there would be no upcoming wars. The way I see it Itachi got played by Tobi, making him foolish. Itachi never stopped the 4th ninja war he helped to create it. A war that involved the whole ninja world and not just one or two villages. It means alot more people are dying in the war he made, then the possible internal konoha war he stopped. He guided Sasuke to the path of hatred that he is now at. Itachi worked for Tobi and the Akatsuki, he fought wars for them, made them money to fund the materials for war, he helped recruit other members like Deidra, he helped get the sharingan eyes needed for Tobi's izangi's prolonging his life from death/powering up his somewhat invincible jinchuriki paths of pain, he helped hunt down the jinchuriki to complete the Moon's eye plan, he helped to seal the bijuu in the Gedo Maza, he was a fool to believe Tobi would keep his promise and not go after Sasuke, he was foolish enough to think a suprise ameratsu attack would kill Tobi, he was foolish to believe if Sasuke went back to the leaf village that he would be a hero and not Danzo's number one target (Sasuke without CS/MS/EMS). Danzo had Sai try to assasinate Sasuke despite Itachi's pact and supposed instilation of fear by showing up in the leaf village (Itachi thought Danzo would keep his word through intimidation, foolish). Itachi took CS away and without the truth Sasuke would not feel the pain of itachi's death for MS, or ever want itachi's eyes for EMS. Itachi was fooled by Danzo,Tobi and probably the Elders Last edited by El_Negro; 2012-01-10 at 13:34. |
2012-01-10, 19:04 | Link #66 | |||
The Ironman
Join Date: Sep 2006
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You can't really categorize what Shikamaru did with what Sasuke's doing. Sasuke is obsessed revenge and would do anything to see that he gets it: Betray his village, hurt or kill loyal friends and innocents, ally himself with lowest scum around--anything to get back at the people that cause him to lose his clan. Shika wouldn't have sought revenge if it meant betraying his village or purposely hurting people he cared about. He did disobey a direct order to go after Akatsuki, but I don't think he was anywhere remotely close to the path Sasuke was taking, if he was, Kakashi would've given him the same speech he gave Sasuke about revenge instead of aiding him. I'm not going to sugarcoat and say that what Shika, Ino and Chouji did wasn't revenge, but I've always seen it more about them taking personal responsibility. Asuma and Shika were part of a mission to eliminate two Akatsuki threats and Asuma died trying accomplish the mission. It always seemed that what was ultimately important to Shika and co. wasn't getting revenge on Hidan and Kakuzu, but as his pupils, finishing what Asuma started to honor him. Quote:
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But at best, I would consider Itachi a victim.
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2012-01-11, 01:07 | Link #67 | |
Smurfee
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How can itachi be put in a really desperate situation and made a victim? He decided to put himself as the victim. There could be other options to prevent the massacre and have him take control of the clan instead, although we do not know if that's possible or not, but it sounds alot better than mass genocide and turning your beloved sibling into a vengeful-driven psycho Itachi knew about the presence of Tobi/madara and instead of warning the Leaf village, he stayed silent. This seems noble at first, forcing Tobi to promise not to attack the village, but the best time the village/ninja world had to stop his plan/the 4th war would have been back then, probably warn the Uchiha & or the village elders about Tobi, the man RESPONSIBLE for the 9 tails rampage on the village. Before he had gathered the akatsuki/made money/killed & sealed the jinchuriki & bijuu/grew the 100,000 zetsu clone army. Shisui and Itachi, which were known as one of the strongest genjutsu users among Uchiha (probably the strongest), should be able to convince Uchiha elders via their normal Sharingan genjutsu to avoid war and try to negotiate with Hiruzen even without using of Kotoamatsukami (and probably Shisui should be able to do maximum two of those per 10 years, unless he got Hashirama's cells). If possible, Itachi could've taken his father's place of Uchiha leader by challenging him for the rule of the clan. If he would prove himself stronger than any other of his clan (and only Shisui at that time had MS and he has only extreme powerful Genjutsu and was Itachi's supporter) than with him in control of his clan he would be able to stop this pointless bloodshed. I think the hokage or the elders could allow that to happen, have an Uchiha on their side and that Uchiha is leader of the clan to keep the clan in check. No one understands why Itachi massacred his family. He never said why and we can hardly trust the word of Tobi a habitual liar. The Uchiha were not fooled by Tobi, the Leaf were fooled by Tobi, something Itachi forgot to mention to the elders about (a person who did have the power to control the fox and frame the Uchiha, important information, yes)Tobi/madara being alive. He joined to spy, but his actions helped the 4th ninja war to happen, and he was a shitty spy. Who did he give any information to? He created war joining akatsuki. People talk about his supposed intentions, while his actions say something totally different. What did he do to counteract all the evil he did? probably the only good thing he ever did was to leave Naruto alone (didn't capture the 9 tails, his original mission in akatsuki), and now here is Naruto cleaning up after his mess . Itachi endangered Konoha worst of all he made the weapon that Sasuke has become, armed him with MS/EMS, allowed Tobi to tell him the Truth/maybe, Itachi killed the uchiha and let Sasuke feel guilt for killing him to fuel his hate/sadness. Last edited by El_Negro; 2012-01-11 at 01:18. |
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2012-01-11, 18:54 | Link #68 | |
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
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I'm not sure what you vetoed since what I called bull was saying that Shika's action weren't motivated by revenge, not that he was exactly similar to Sasuke
Your first paragraph is true but has nothing to do with the point I raised. Of course Shika situation isn't the same as Sasuke. To start with what they suffered can't be compared and then he got his revenge within a week. Have Shika return to Konoha to find everybody dead at the hand of Hidan and then fail to return the favor for the next decade and we could talk. I'd disagree about Kakashi though, the man flatly said to Sasuke to forgot about revenge, period. That was a very stupid thing to say and obviously it didn't work. Had he acted the way he did with Shika (ie proposing to enable his revenge through his help) instead of blabbing about revenge being bad then maybe things could have turned differently. You also say that you're not sugarcoating it but that's pretty much all you did. Shika didn't go after Hidan because he was part of the team (he and dozens of others that is) sent after him, he (and his 2 friends who weren't even part of the mission to begin with) went after Hidan because he wanted revenge for his teacher, period. That's why Kakashi told Tsunade that it was no use to tell him not to go, because he would refuse blindly to follow order and go on his own anyway and so it was better to go along with him because at least they stood a better chance that way. There was no duty rational behind that, Hidan murdered Asuma and Shika burried him alive for it. Quote:
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2012-01-13, 01:01 | Link #69 | ||
The Ironman
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Let's say Itachi stopped the coup and take control of the Uchiha under Sarutobi's authority. How many are going to truly support him after he shows more loyalty to Konoha than his clan? Maybe the majority would be obedient because of his strength, but then there are those who could continue to rebel and become missing nin or even threats like Madara. The Konoha/Uchiha alliance was already uneasy before. Think things would get better or worse after the Uchiha revealed themselves willing to betray Konoha? How long could peace last before the old Senju/Uchiha grudges came up like they did before? A generation. Two or three maybe? To say the conflict would be finally be buried forever with a truce is hard to say. No matter how you look at it, it would be a fragile relationship-- easy to break and difficult to maintain. If you're Itachi, thinking about Konoha's safety and its future I can understand arriving at the conclusion that leaving the Uchiha alive was like having a powder keg in the village. By wiping out his clan, he ends the bloodline permanently. Madara is still around, but Itachi forces him to agree to keep Konoha off-limits and joins Akatsuki to keep close on his heels. For good measure, he mind-rapes his brother into hating the other two remaining Uchiha. A guarantee that Sasuke would stop at nothing to end Madara's threat if Itachi failed. But Sasuke ended up falling right into Madara's lap anyhow, because Madara was always one step ahead of Itachi. Itachi was made to believe he had no choice but to make the worst decision anyone could make. And it was largely unsuccessful. That's why I say he was a victim. Quote:
But Shika was sent on a mission to eliminate two threats to his village. His sensei died for that. After Asuma's last words were about how great potential is and how he's counting on him to protect the "king", just because Shika doesn't drop responsibility when Tsunade tells him to let the big boys take care of things makes it purely about revenge? Ino and Chouji weren't on the mission, but they were Asuma's pupils too and besides that, how could they leave Shika to face Akatsuki alone. I don't doubt that Shikamaru got a sense of satisfaction defeating Hidan, but declaring that Shika was purely motivated out of revenge really waters down the development of his character. I don't think Shika not suffering some kind of karmic backlash for avenging Asuma is really Kishi making an exception to condone revenge. I mean, yeah Naruto's become a saint who resists the temptation of all revenge at any cost, and Sasuke is the horrible example of where revenge leads, but Sasuke is an example of revenge for revenge sake. He has no other cause or goal but to see the enemy punished. Shika took it on himself to finish his mission, help protect his village and avenge his master.
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Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2012-01-13 at 01:24. |
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2012-01-13, 01:32 | Link #70 |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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Responding to the topic with a resounding Hell no. Opting to go ballistic against Konoha after he found out what Itachi sacrificed for him is a slap in the face, and justifying that vengeance in his name is another one. I'd have no problem with Sasuke's actions if his reasons were only exclusive to him and not some self-righteous crap that further drags his family name into this, but as it stands that's not the case. Honestly I feel like he's intended to be an antihero but performs actions a lot close to pure villainy.
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2012-01-13, 07:29 | Link #71 | |
Smurfee
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The coup de tat was planned after the nine tails attack, the Elders wrongfully accused them after the attack, leading to immediate segregation, and as Hunter said negotiations were only made amongst themselves (The Hokage and the Elders, with the Hokage trying to reach a peaceful solution) to deal with the Uchiha treatment. I don't recall Uchiha getting any proper representation and if they did we can't/don't know what they were asking for in their "supposed" negotiations, for all I know it could be better treatment or a fair trail to hear their side of the story for a change or to probably leave the village, we cannot say for sure. I can tell you that there are some of the people who live with the Uchiha Clan who do not inherit/possess their powerful abilities, those could be people who marry into the Clan, these people who do not inherit their abilities but still serve as members of the clan such as Sasuke's Aunt or Uncle who run their Gift Shop (I don't see them performing any Fireball Jutsu's), some who do the small grunt work or like his Mother who's probably a stay at home mom. There maybe some who don't even know about their hidden coup (remember it's hidden to those who are in the Konoha Military Police Force, the only person outside the KMPF was Fugaku's wife and that's because he was the Clan Leader/Coup Leader) it could be those kids that are Sasuke's age or younger but because they are Uchiha kill them off too for fear they grow up to become uber strong like Madara, we don't know if all of them are capable of reaching Madara's level and it was stated that Madara was an exceptionally gifted member who had high level's of chakra thus making him a perfect candidate to reach god-like status. To reach that level requires lethal methods such as killing someone close to you (close relative). Your'e making it sound as though every-member of the Uchiha clan has exceptional chakra level's like Madara's, we don't know and we can't say for sure only Kishi could confirm this. Still, these innocent didn't deserve this treatment. This is why Sasuke's on a romp right now in offing every-member of konoha including the innocent ones who are enjoying the peace and stability his clansmen (All Uchiha People)were sacrificed for NOT JUST ITACHI. Everyone is looking at the clan as an evil clan need I remind you that there are some who are good (Obito & Shisui are just one for starters). And I'm pretty sure that if the Uchiha rebellion was stomped the first time by itachi and sarutobi, they would dare not try a second time or it would probably take a very long time too to do so again, because by this point itachi and sarutobi would put strict policies in place on any clan in konoha who would attempt to plot a coup. It's even true in real life once a coup immediately fails the Government immediately establishes harsher rules/policies or means to prevent another attempt, that's why coup de tat are a win or lose, do or die situation either you succeed and become the new regime or fail and become imprisoned traitors or worst face the death penalty. At least it wouldn't lead to a 4th Ninja war with all Nations being affected. An ultimatum could be offered to the non-rebels of the Uchiha Clan, either stay in konoha or leave and form your own damn village, choice is theirs. Eitherway the Elders handled the situation poorly and left itachi with a choice (Us or them?) itachi choose Us (Konoha) for HIS want of peace and stability. Genocide is still a horrendous crime eitherway you look at it, there had to be other options. Last edited by El_Negro; 2012-01-13 at 14:17. |
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2012-01-13, 14:37 | Link #72 |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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[QUOTE=Sabaku Kyu;3942025]I don't think it's bull. I veto the bull vote.
You can't really categorize what Shikamaru did with what Sasuke's doing. Sasuke is obsessed revenge and would do anything to see that he gets it: Betray his village, hurt or kill loyal friends and innocents, ally himself with lowest scum around--anything to get back at the people that cause him to lose his clan. Shika wouldn't have sought revenge if it meant betraying his village or purposely hurting people he cared about. He did disobey a direct order to go after Akatsuki, but I don't think he was anywhere remotely close to the path Sasuke was taking, if he was, Kakashi would've given him the same speech he gave Sasuke about revenge instead of aiding him. I'm not going to sugarcoat and say that what Shika, Ino and Chouji did wasn't revenge, but I've always seen it more about them taking personal responsibility. Asuma and Shika were part of a mission to eliminate two Akatsuki threats and Asuma died trying accomplish the mission. It always seemed that what was ultimately important to Shika and co. wasn't getting revenge on Hidan and Kakuzu, but as his pupils, finishing what Asuma started to honor him. The Uchica weren't murdered because of the Kyuubi attack...this is the reason they were segregated. The clan was killed because they were planning a coup against Konoha. And there was really no need for a trial because there was no doubt about their conspiracy. Sandaime actually tried to negotiate with the Uchiha through diplomacy. When that failed, Danzou and the Elders took matters into their own hands--or rather put it into Itachi's hands. I agree with that, though I'll admit Itachi was in a really desperate situation. From what it seems like, the Uchiha were pretty adamant about rebelling against Konoha. There's no telling what would've happened had the coup actually happened. But at best, I would consider Itachi a victim.[/QUOTEtj this is just something to throw out there, a what if situation. so what if kakuza and hidan did something total tragic to another village. and the village in question had a really good reason to go after them. and tsunada tells team asuma you cant go after then due to political reasons, such as the village that was hurt by the akatski would be willing to go to war if they could not be the ones to deal with them. the question is, well does team asuma do nothing, who gets the call here. the point is in naruto world the people sasuke is after are powerful in a political sense, so if he goes after them its bad because it may start a war, but if its just a criminal the atitude is hey its ok to go after them. but really what is sasuke supposed to do, just forget about it because of political reasons, this is his family we are talking about. who is going to sit on this and not do something about it. Last edited by 23 gundam fan; 2012-01-13 at 14:39. Reason: selling |
2012-01-13, 21:03 | Link #73 | ||||
The Ironman
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Itachi left Sasuke alive, but he wanted the Uchiha legacy to die. That wouldn't happen as long as there was a clan to rally the Uchiha. Madara's was the true enemy of course, but even as dangerous as he is, he's still a single, tangible threat. The clan was scores, maybe hundreds of uncertainties and each generation brings more. A Uchiha might be a loyal shinobi like Obito, or they could become the next Madara. But I guess this is better left for the Itachi hero/villain thread... Quote:
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2012-01-13, 22:04 | Link #74 | |||||
Smurfee
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Dude that's really sad to resort to such a cruel method, but doing this action to me means that person does not really have a conscience or doesn't really give a damn about human-life, seriously. This is Narutoverse and it's ninja's we're dealing with so the actions would be very militarist in nature, cruel but effective. At lease I could give Itachi credit for that, in that he suffered internally after doing such an inhumane act. Quote:
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But this is where the Hokage could've made a huge difference, as I said before after the 9 tails attack the Uchiha were wrongfully accused which lead to their segregation and removal from Konoha's general affairs. The Hokage and the Elders should've given them a fair shake before pointing fingers and labelling, So answer me this if one black guy vandalizes a neighbourhood your'e saying all other black people living in the community should be punished because black people are generally dangerous and any other black person would be a threat? This is just like that movie Rosewood, where a white lady gets raped by another white male and she pins it on a poor black guy who did not know shit what was going on and because of that the rest of the whites in Rosewood decides to lynch and kill all other black persons living in Rosewood because of the supposed actions of one black guy hence they saw it fit all blacks should pay because they would eventually become very unruly and bad and threaten their safety and destabilize Rosewood, does that sound like a good reason to go open season on all blacks in that community? But your'e okay with it right? as long as Rosewood is in peace. Hitler had the same ideology too, he saw Jewish people as well as other minorities as unfit, ungodly and a probable threat to the pure white race or Nazis hence his notable act for mass genocide on all Jews in Poland, Austria (I think) during WWII, doing that will ensure that the world would be a better place, was his action valid to ensure that the world would be better off without minorities? I hope I'm not being too racist or being too offensive in using these examples when I'm making my point but I'm trying to comprehend why everyone is okay with the genocide killing so I'm being rational about this. Quote:
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Last edited by El_Negro; 2012-01-13 at 22:51. |
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2012-01-13, 23:24 | Link #75 | |||
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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I looked around but I couldn't find any concrete source. But since everywhere I looked was consistent in calling her a jonin, added on to the fact that much of what we know of her came from the databooks, I'm guessing that info was in one of the databooks. I won't say that for certain though, if only for lack of a definitive source.
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Yeah, sounds like a fantastic way to avoid hostilities to me. <_< |
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2012-01-14, 02:11 | Link #76 | |
Smurfee
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The Uchiha Clan didn't or probably couldn't get a chance to voice their concerns after the 9 tails attack, they were immediately suspected and shunned by the Elders which lead to their feelings of contempt and their attempted coup which failed. Hence the actions of one (Tobi: An Uchiha) lead to the demise of all (The Uchiha Clan), which is why they should've just pack up and leave the village immediately after that disaster instead of facing poor treatment causing them to plot a coup. And you even stated it yourself they were under suspicion but I think it's after the 9 tails attack that the suspicion went from bad to worse and not during the 2nd Hokage's time. |
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2012-01-14, 02:22 | Link #77 | |
Smurfee
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2012-01-14, 08:22 | Link #78 | ||
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You can argue all day that in reality the Uchiha Clan was taken out because of one guy, and you'd be right. But because the Elders didn't know about that and were condemning the clan as a whole, that distinction really doesn't matter. Quote:
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2012-01-14, 08:48 | Link #79 | |
Smurfee
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2012-01-14, 09:13 | Link #80 | |
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