Morality in Death Note? Do the ends justify the means?

[NoSanninWa]

Unless I misunderstand, and I don't think I do, that is not what ThisIsDream is saying. The point of that post is that if someone has the power and desire, he has to take those rights for himself or else the world will never change.

[Neux]

In other words, having the ability to change the world gives you the right to do so? Interesting concept.

Interesting observation.

Originally Posted by ThisIsDream

Conclusion, at this rate, no one can make the world better (or has the right to), because no one has the right to do .....

...But if people in the past thought that, the world may very well be a very different place. Say, in the past slavery was very common, and was the norm. Was it wrong for someone to try to change the world to be a better place by saying that slavery was wrong? Did they not have the right to say that? If they don't have the right, how will the world change to a world without slavery if they can't do anything to change it?

There is no such thing as "right", as "right" differs from person to person, as well as from time to time. People can only do what they think is "right" in the place and time they are in.

[DribCC]

Originally Posted by hitokirigirl

I think mentioning God and religious stuff are a bit off-topic : the deal is to think if human beings have right to kill people...otherwise It would be endless.


Human is the most perfect being on this world, and yet the most evil. I don't want to give examples, but you sure know many crimes that are beyond imagination (strangely commited by men, not women...)

Anyway, if I had the Death note, I just couldn't use it.
Not because of all the morality. Just because death is the nicest punishment to criminals, rapists, robbers,terrorists, and so on........

Hey, does someone hold the Torture Note ?

I really dont want to be an ass here but... Why are you being stupid? Chooseing to be part of a religin or not is one of our biggest differences from animals. And as for not useing the Death Note because "death is too nice of a punishment..." you woulnd think like that if you or a family member were raped. You really must not be paying attention to the show because they say you can control how the person dies.

[DribCC]

P.S. Hitokirigirl Im sorry if I'm echoing something some one else already said

[hitokirigirl]

Originally Posted by DribCC

I really dont want to be an ass here but... Why are you being stupid? Chooseing to be part of a religin or not is one of our biggest differences from animals. And as for not useing the Death Note because "death is too nice of a punishment..." you woulnd think like that if you or a family member were raped. You really must not be paying attention to the show because they say you can control how the person dies.

My, my, I'm really sorry to sound stupid to you, but learn that every human DOES NOT believe in God. And treating people who have no religion to be animals makes you nothing else but a fanatic, huh?

And I will repeat it again : even if the Note gives you to control the death, death is a sweet punishment, even if the death if horrible. Even if you die by torture, in the end it's still death, so some kind of escape. Staying alive and in an unbearable way is a method to make the criminal suffer and never forget what he has done.

NSW, as you thought, I think that thread won't last long...

[Deathwing]

I was rooting for L before he died because i beleve he was right
Light was insane, killing criminals is ok but when do you start to draw the line. Like Ryuuku said if u start killing people who you think have evil hearts you will end up the only one left. Apprently for Light killing innocent poeple that were on his trail was more important then killing the criminals he could have just let ray go believing he was innocent and keep killing criminals in secret but he just had to kill him and then L who was on his trail after that.

ok i won't lie im a christian and i do beleive that only god should decide who lives and who dies.

However i will draw a middle ground here for the people who dont think there is a god and say that even though circumstances cause death. Humans should not be able to control who lives and who dies its just too much of a power rush for some people and they will go trigger (or in this case pen) happy ex.light

You can argue what if it is a rightous human who will only kill criminals, but i dont think such a person exists who cant be corrupted by that much power

[^_Usagi_^]

Hey, does someone hold the Torture Note ?

haha.... feeling sadist today arent we...

this would be even crueler than killing them though... but Raito's aim was to "cleanse" the world , not to rehabilitate the bad guys... its faster

[ThisIsDream]

Originally Posted by Deathwing

ok i won't lie im a christian and i do beleive that only god should decide who lives and who dies.

Nice example , like I said it might be better if Light is not a human being. There are always people who don't accept or recognize an other human being doing things. They will think we are all Human Being, we are all the same. Why would u have the "right" to do this or do that..............

Waiting for Non-Human Being to change the Human Being world.

[AK-kun]

No. Righto wanted to become a God. That's all there is to it. He's got a God Complex, all that talk about making the World a better place was to flaunt his power and create future 'worshippers'.

But, who knows. Death Notes are actually atrictly for a Shinigami's use, and I find that raher appropriate, seeing that they are like the Grim Reapers of the World. In human hands, under the possession of somebody who does not have any direct benefits from using the note, there are other wilder purposes to be found for the Note's use.

[Deathwing]

Originally Posted by ThisIsDream

Nice example , like I said it might be better if Light is not a human being. There are always people who don't accept or recognize an other human being doing things. They will think we are all Human Being, we are all the same. Why would u have the "right" to do this or do that..............

Waiting for Non-Human Being to change the Human Being world.

Humans can change the world its just that i dont think a mass killing by somebody with a messiah complex is the right way to go about it. I should have made it more clear that the right im focusing on is the ablity to take human life so easily like light was able to do. You make some good points though.

[hitokirigirl]

Originally Posted by ^_Usagi_^

haha.... feeling sadist today arent we...

this would be even crueler than killing them though... but Raito's aim was to "cleanse" the world , not to rehabilitate the bad guys... its faster

Me, a sadist, no


True that killing cleans the world faster, but it would be endless, and I doubt the Death Note has enough sheets for the coming centuries...


Wait, Ryuk managed to get 2 Death Notes : that punk must have some hidden stock

[Darklightz]

I think Ryuk said it best

"Light : I'll be using the Death Note to rid the world of all the bad people

Ryuk : Then you'll be the only bastard left?"

In this world there are as many ideal societies as there are people.Everyone thinks they have the best morality and that they know exactly how the world should work,and when different ideas collide there's conflict.

Strangely enough,Light's situation is very similar to what Bush is doing in Iraq.He sent the army,assuring them they would be greeted as liberators.But much like Light,Bush didn't stop there and kept fighting more "bad people" wich earned him the contempt or pretty much every other nation on earth.No matter how idealistic your vision is,if you start mass killing people,you are just a murderer.

[AvatarST]

If Kira did only kill rapists and murderers, I wouldn't have been against him.

The problem is that he didn't, though.

[DribCC]

Originally Posted by hitokirigirl

My, my, I'm really sorry to sound stupid to you, but learn that every human DOES NOT believe in God. And treating people who have no religion to be animals makes you nothing else but a fanatic, huh?

And I will repeat it again : even if the Note gives you to control the death, death is a sweet punishment, even if the death if horrible. Even if you die by torture, in the end it's still death, so some kind of escape. Staying alive and in an unbearable way is a method to make the criminal suffer and never forget what he has done.

NSW, as you thought, I think that thread won't last long...

Haha a fanatic? No thats why I said its the chocie of believing in a religon. And just to let you know I'm not getting worked up over the riligon part of the argument. I have more respect for people who through away the belife of a higher power altogether than anyone from any riligon. But riligon does play huge part in my reasoning on this hole death note thing. And almost everyone who do have a riligon believe that death is a seriouse punishment because how we act here determins where we go after death. And there are some crimes not even riligon can save you from.

[ThisIsDream]

In this Thread, for people who gonna keep saying Yagami Raito's action is wrong, he doesnt have the right to take other people lives, so he is a murderer, he is evil.

The answer will be this statement -

There are always people who don't accept or recognize an other human being doing things. They will think we are all Human Being, we are all the same. Why would u have the "right" to do this or do that..............

So Conclusion will be - Waiting for Non-Human Being to change the Human Being world.


"Right" problems

We are all human being, and I think no human being has the "right" to kill an other human being, I think no human being has the "right" to put someone in jail, I think no human being has the "right" to execute an other human being, White people think Black people dont have the "right"

As I can see, "right" is something a human being set for an other human being. It might be better if Light is not a human being, may be a shinigami? OH wait, I think shinigami dont have the "right" to kill and I also think God dont have the "right" to send ppl to hell.

Conclusion, at this rate, no one can make the world better (or has the right to), because no one has the right to do .....

Originally Posted by Nexu

There is no such thing as "right", as "right" differs from person to person, as well as from time to time. People can only do what they think is "right" in the place and time they are in.

"Law" which creating "right"

Originally Posted by ThisIsDream

Think like this

-Laws = Created by human being. < that is the fact.

What kind of human Being create laws?

-intelligence, smart, powerful, authority people (no matter how many ppl they are still Human being)

-Yagami Raito = Human being

-Yagami Raito is smart, intelligence, well planned.

-Yagami Raito has the Death note - powerful, authority

-Yagami Raito setting Laws

For people who gonna keep saying the shinigami Ryuuku say " you will be the only bastard left".

It seem like people think Ryuuku is justice, is right. Anyway, Ryuuku doesnt know much or understand about human, and you take what he say seriously

For people who gonna say Yagami Raito cross the line of killing (innocent) people who are after him or (innocent)people who are opposite him.

The answer will be this -

Yagami Raito only kill those (innocent) people who are opposite him and also willing to risk their life to stop//catch//kill "kira" the "ideal world". IN that case deaths are inevitable.

For people who gonna say Yagami Raito use power and become a dictator and forcing people accept him.

The answer will be this -

Yagami Raito didnt FORCE people, he understand that people have 2 faces. Yagami Raito also understand that there are people who are oppiste him, he is not going to kill them, he wants people slowly to accept the "ideal world".
Even if they dont, it doesnt mean Yagami will kill them

For people who gonna say If Yagami Raito doesnt have the death note he will be a brat, nothing special etc....

The answer will be LOL, "If someone doesn't have this or have that, then he//she will not be the same" can apply to anyone or anything.

For people who gonna say the "Kira world" Yagami Raito gonna create is flaw and the way of his doing will never end.

The answer will be this-

Yagami Raito is not going to create a flawless, perfect world, he is going to create a "better world" with less criminals, Yagami Raito also understand there are crimes which will never end.

Spoiler for After 6 years of Kira world (manga):

Impulsive Crimes and Murders will never stop occurring, but planned crimes and intenional malicious acts are starting to cease and will be gone.

For people who gonna compare Countries Vs Countries, Nations Vs Nations etc.. to Yagami Raito, it is a little bit different.

European taking other people lands, colonized areas, destroying other nationals' cultures, Hitler eliminating Jews, White people slaving different skin's colour people, a country invading another country for own benefits, Communist Vs Capitalism, Liberalism VS Conservative etc......... Compare to Yagami Raito eliminating "Criminals"

As you can see the differences

- First are a group of people (I am right) VS a group of people (I am right)

- Second are "Criminals" which are Everyone (or most ppl? Some may think Criminals are good who knows) in the world recognize as "Criminals" - People who are doing Bad, evil things. It is really hard and rare for Everyone to accept on one thing or come up with a same statement.
However, u can say is majority judge minority.

Ok now lets move on to the next step. Since "Criminals" exist, everyone will think what actions should take and it will be the penalty problems.
Some will say this crime should stay in the jail for 3 years, some say 4, some say stay in jail forever, some may even say kill them, torture them etc............What Yagami Raito is doing. Yagami Raito was killing major criminals, and yea he did kill some minor criminals, Yagami Raito is not perfect. May be we should find a "Perfect" human being to do this
(Note) : if u gonna come up with the "right" problems, please read earlier posts.)

[AvatarST]

Yagami Light also killed innocent people doing their job, like...

Spoiler for episode 5:

Ray Penbar.

[Neux]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Yagami Light also killed innocent people doing their job, like...

Spoiler for episode 5:

Ray Penbar.

True, but as someone put it, Light was "damned if he did and damned if he didn't".

Again, think of this as a war between Kira and L. Both are fighting for control over the world. Innocent people are bound to get caught in the cross fire. Think of those people as L's soldiers who are doing their job to hunt and kill Kira. Kira is being attacked by enemy soldiers, even if those soldiers are doing their job, even if they are innocent, they are trying to kill Kira. And think, it was L who brought those innocent people into the battle.

[ThisIsDream]

Good point Neux - L who brought those innocent people into the battle.
And that is why the chef yagami said this is the situation L was waiting for - people who willing to risk their lives to aganist Kira.

Let me repeat myself again ^^

Originally Posted by ThisIsDream

For people who gonna say Yagami Raito cross the line of killing (innocent) people who are after him or (innocent)people who are opposite him.

The answer will be this -

Yagami Raito only kill those (innocent) people who are opposite him and also willing to risk their life to stop//catch//kill "kira" the "ideal word". IN that case deaths are inevitable.

[4Tran]

I've only seen the first episode, but it's already pretty clear where Light stands in regards to morality. Intent is pretty useless for determining whether an individual is performing ethical acts. Therefore morality should be determined by the actions of an individual rather than by his intent.

In episode 1, Light used the Death Note in three different situations:

A) When Light killed the first man, he didn't think that the Death Note would actually work, so there's no question of morality involved.

B) When Light killed the would-be rapist, he suspected that his act would kill, but he was still uncertain. This action can be more accurately described as an experiment. Thus, when he was witness to a rape attempt in progress, instead of trying to intervene or informing somebody, he merely used it as an opportunity to experiment! By the measures of just about all systems of morality, this would qualify as a callous disregard for the welfare of another human being.

C) Light killed hundreds of "criminals". This leads to two interesting observations:

1. Deliberately performing an act that leads to the death of another human, outside of a very few mitigating factors such as war or self-defence, is the very definition of murder. Light's killing of those criminals is morally equivalent to murder. In most systems of morality murder is one of least ethical acts that can be performed.

2. In just about all moral systems, people who commit crimes are supposed to be punished. However, it's also very important that the punishment fits the crime committed. To do otherwise is to subvert the very meaning of morality. It is highly unlikely that all of Light's victims deserved the punishment of murder. In this regards, Light's murders are extremely immoral.

More complex analyses can be done on Light's actions with regards to rights and responsibilities, and the like; but the conclusions won't change: Light acted very immorally in episode 1. Given the rest of his personality faults, it's unlikely that Light will grow any compassion, so I don't think that it's premature to anticipate his getting his just deserts.

[Darklightz]

Originally Posted by Neux

True, but as someone put it, Light was "damned if he did and damned if he didn't".

I disagree.The Death Note is the perfect killing weapon,it leaves no trace of it's user.Therefore as long as the user himself doesn't create evidence of his crime,he's safe.If Light had spared Ling L Taylor,L would have had no clue where to search.

While I agree on a fundamental level that some criminals can't be reformed and death is the onyl way to deal with them,the problem remains,who can be the judge?No matter who does the judging,there will be injustice.