Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I believe that, when a master makes a new contract, they regain all of their command spells. They don't, however, get three command spells per servant.

I don't think so. In a normal scenario we always see the Command Spells gets distributed before a Servant is summoned. Meaning summoning a servant and making a contract with it has nothing to do with getting the Command Spells.

I would say a former master needs to have a Command Spell before he is able to create a contract with a new servant.

Spoiler for Fate/Zero:

We see this happen in Fate/Zero when Kotomine gets his Command Spells given back to him by the grail after having lost them when Assassin got killed. Only then was he able to make a new contract, with Gilgamesh.

And this:

Originally Posted by Fate/complete material III

Q: This is a question about contracts with multiple Servants. Can Command Spells be used on any of the Servants? Hypothetically, if someone was bound to two Servants, would the magus be able to use four or more Command Spells?

A: Even when contracted with multiple Servants, a Master only receives three Command Spells (assuming none have been stolen from other Masters, etc.), so you can’t have four Command Spells for a single Servant or anything like that. Also, there’s nothing wrong with concentrating all Command Spells on a single Servant. The problems begin after all Command Spells have been used up.

Source: http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Command_Spells

[sona-nyl]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Spoiler for Fate/Zero:

We see this happen in Fate/Zero when Kotomine gets his Command Spells given back to him by the grail after having lost them when Assassin got killed. Only then was he able to make a new contract, with Gilgamesh.

Spoiler for Zero:

Did he receive new ones from the grail? I thought he took the ones from his father's body when he found him dead?

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Usami_Haru

Spoiler for Zero:

Did he receive new ones from the grail? I thought he took the ones from his father's body when he found him dead?

Spoiler for Zero:

Kirei lost his two Command Spells that he had left after Assassin died. He got them back, before a Master died (but not the Servant), because the Grail took a liking to Kirei. This is very unusual.

[sona-nyl]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Spoiler for Zero:

Kirei lost his two Command Spells that he had left after Assassin died. He got them back, before a Master died (but not the Servant), because the Grail took a liking to Kirei. This is very unusual.

Spoiler for Zero:

Were those other ones than the one he got from his father then? Because I checked the novel just now and there Kirei receives all those extra command spells his father had when he finds his corpse (Risei had left a code so only Kirei would be able to receive them).

EDIT: I checked again and he does indeed get his command seals back before receiving the ones from his father. I wonder how many he has left in F/SN.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Spoiler for Zero:

Kirei lost his two Command Spells that he had left after Assassin died. He got them back, before a Master died (but not the Servant), because the Grail took a liking to Kirei. This is very unusual.

I don't think it is that usual otherwise there would be no reason for current masters to fear former master from making a contract with a new Servant. Getting your Command spell back shoud be a regular occurrence to be something to be feared.

I rather think Kotomine didn't believe he had anything of value to the grail and that is why he didn't expect to get a second change to participate in the grail war.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Usami_Haru

Spoiler for Zero:

Were those other ones than the one he got from his father then? Because I checked the novel just now and there Kirei receives all those extra command spells his father had when he finds his corpse (Risei had left a code so only Kirei would be able to receive them).

EDIT: I checked again and he does indeed get his command seals back before receiving the ones from his father. I wonder how many he has left in F/SN.

Spoiler:

Kirei had eight spells left after his fight with Kiritsugu. He got three new ones from Bazett, but immediately used two to order Lancer around. That means he had nine spells left, when the Fifth War finally started.

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I rather think Kotomine didn't believe he had anything of value to the grail and that is why he didn't expect to get a second change to participate in the grail war.

That is also the case, but he got his spells back before a Servant was free. This contradicts the things he just explained a second before.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Spoiler:

Kirei had eight spells left after his fight with Kiritsugu. He got three new ones from Bazett, but immediately used two to order Lancer around. That means he had nine spells left, when the Fifth War finally started.

That is also the case, but he got his spells back before a Servant was free. This contradicts the things he just explained a second before.

Ah, I see, yeah that is strange indeed.

This makes me wonder how did Kirei's father got all his Command Spells. Where they the Spells from participants of previous grail wars who went to the church to forfeit their participation or did he got them in some other way?

[GDB]

I believe that's the case, yes.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Ah, I see, yeah that is strange indeed.

This makes me wonder how did Kirei's father got all his Command Spells. Where they the Spells from participants of previous grail wars who went to the church to forfeit their participation or did he got them in some other way?

Originally Posted by Fate/Zero Volume 3

"Where have the vanished Command Spells gone now? Those existences that are after all the physical manifestations of magic, will most likely not disappear into thin air just like that, will they?"

"In theory, they should have returned to the Grail. The Command Seals themselves are things that the Grail bestows. People who have lost their eligibility as a Master because of the loss of their Servant - their Command Seals should be reclaimed back by the Grail. Yet, if there appears a Servant whose contract has been lifted because of the loss of his Master, the Grail will then redistribute the unused Command Seals it had previously reclaimed to new contractors."

Twenty-one engraved Command Seals distributed to seven Masters, disappearing after having been used once, and the Command Seals that at the end had not been consumed would then be amassed in the hands of the supervisor and commissioned for safekeeping.

Risei got them from the last War. The supervisor exists since the Third War as far as I remember and the supervisor was Risei.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I don't think so. In a normal scenario we always see the Command Spells gets distributed before a Servant is summoned. Meaning summoning a servant and making a contract with it has nothing to do with getting the Command Spells.

Actually, no, they're not. There are marks showing that you've been chosen as a potential master, yes, but the actual command spells don't appear until a servant is summoned.

I would say a former master needs to have a Command Spell before he is able to create a contract with a new servant.

Spoiler for Fate/Zero:

We see this happen in Fate/Zero when Kotomine gets his Command Spells given back to him by the grail after having lost them when Assassin got killed. Only then was he able to make a new contract, with Gilgamesh.

It's possible, but I do think a master gets new command spells when they make a new contract.

Spoiler for Zero:

But, why does Kotomine even get those back? That doesn't usually happen....

Source: http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Command_Spells

Yes, but that is when you have more than one contract, not when you make a new contract. Making a contract doesn't give you three command spells, but it might well take you back up to three.

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Ah, I see, yeah that is strange indeed.

This makes me wonder how did Kirei's father got all his Command Spells. Where they the Spells from participants of previous grail wars who went to the church to forfeit their participation or did he got them in some other way?

Unused command spells are given to the supervisor (i.e. Risei or, in the fifth war, Kirei). The supervisor is then able to re-distribute them as a reward for various things.

[royalzaku]

I have a quick little question. In the Saber Route it mentions how saber is brought wherever the holy grail may appear because of a deal she made in order to become a heroic spirit. So why doesn't Saber show up during the first 3 holy grail wars?

[TwilightsCall]

She can only go there if someone summons her there. If another Heroic Spirit is summoned into the Saber class before she is, then she has no real method of materializing. The deal she made wasn't with the Grail, so it doesn't much care about whether she participates in the war or not.

As far as Alaya is concerned, time isn't an issue - it literally has forever to get her the Holy Grail, so if it isn't feasible to get her into the war the first three times, its no big deal. Especially since it doesn't even necessarily have to get her this particular Grail.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, technically, I'm not sure it is officially confirmed that she wasn't summoned into those wars, although I would agree that it seems unlikely.

But, yeah, there's no reason why Saber automatically has to show up in every Grail War. Most likely, that line is there because at the time Nasu hadn't really thought out his backstory very well, and thus didn't know if she had shown up before the fourth war.

[royalzaku]

Most likely, that line is there because at the time Nasu hadn't really thought out his backstory very well, and thus didn't know if she had shown up before the fourth war.[/QUOTE]

"If there is a chance to obtain the Holy Grail, I [Saber] will be summoned to any battlefield."Is this the line you were referring to?

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by royalzaku

"If there is a chance to obtain the Holy Grail, I [Saber] will be summoned to any battlefield."Is this the line you were referring to?

Yeah, and other similar things. Nasu isn't renowned for being overly consistent with his canon....

[royalzaku]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

She can only go there if someone summons her there. If another Heroic Spirit is summoned into the Saber class before she is, then she has no real method of materializing. The deal she made wasn't with the Grail, so it doesn't much care about whether she participates in the war or not.

13th Day:Night about the use of the Holy Grail- Saber (V)

This is the part where it talks about heroes, heroic spirits, and servants. Basically this is what I got from this scene (correct me if I'm wrong) Heroes make a contract with the world to gain power, or in Saber's case to obtain the Holy Grail, when they are alive. After they die, they become heroic spirits to pay back their debts from the contract, and finally become servants when a magus summons them for the holy grail war.

Saber's contract stated that she was to get the Holy Grail when she was alive. However, she was not able to obtain it during her lifetime. In order for her to complete her contract, her time stopped before her death.

During this scene Saber says "Eventually, I will obtain the Holy Grail and fulfill the contract. That is why I can be summoned into many ages before I become a heroic spirit on the condition that my becoming a heroic spirit is already determined."

This line here indicates that she can be summoned into times before she become a hero to obtain the grail. Since this would occur before both her becoming a hero and the start of the holy grail wars, she would need some method to materialize. So I think the world is summoning her into the world to complete the contract. So it seems reasonable that even if she could not partake as "Saber" in the first three wars, she still could be summoned during those wars to obtain the grail.

This theory is incomplete because I need to get a better understanding of the first three holy grail wars because it said how in each of them they were still incomplete and rules had to be changed. I also need to reread the parts about Saber's summoning in the beginning of the game, like when Saber says "Shirou did you not summon me?" and Shirou replays "It was just luck" because these reveal more insight on how Saber was summoned in the first place.

[GDB]

Making a deal with the world would result in you becoming a Counter Guardian, like Archer. It has nothing to do with becoming a Heroic Spirit and eventually getting summoned as a Servant.

Her being able to be summoned to times before she becomes a Heroic Spirit is the same for any Heroic Spirit. See: Archer.

[royalzaku]

Originally Posted by GDB

Making a deal with the world would result in you becoming a Counter Guardian, like Archer. It has nothing to do with becoming a Heroic Spirit and eventually getting summoned as a Servant.

Her being able to be summoned to times before she becomes a Heroic Spirit is the same for any Heroic Spirit. See: Archer.

In Saber's case she made a contract with the world to obtain the grail that is why she is different from the other servants of this war. She is also different from the Counter Guardian, Archer because her contract has not been fulfilled, while archer's already has been fulfilled.

[GDB]

Right, but the way you said it made it look like you thought that's how all the Heroes functioned.

[TwilightsCall]

Originally Posted by royalzaku

So it seems reasonable that even if she could not partake as "Saber" in the first three wars, she still could be summoned during those wars to obtain the grail.

This is fundamentally correct. That being said, the reason Saber wasn't summoned (or at least we assume wasn't summoned) can still be explained by a disconnect between the World and the Holy Grail.

The summoning of Servants in the War is carried out almost entirely by the Grail. The Masters will create their magic circles, say their magic words (sometimes), and present some sort of relic as a catalyst. If no one goes through that process, then the Holy Grail helps them a long a little bit (see Shirou and Ryuunosuke from Zero). The Holy Grail then takes whatever relic is available, finds a Heroic Spirit that is connected to it, and materializes it into a pre-prepared vessel.

Now, while this doesn't seem to apply entirely to Saber, since she can't go into any sort of Spiritual Form (...wait, doesn't that mean she can't touch the grail? o.o), the other facts still apply: the Grail does the summoning. And, for our Saber to be summoned, a catalyst relevant to her must be prepared. Since the Einzbern family didn't have Avalon until shortly before the 4th War, it would be fairly difficult for anyone to find a relic that related directly to her and no one else. So, while it would be possible to summon Saber, it would be very difficult, and so some other (actual) Heroic Spirit would likely be chosen instead.

While the World could theoretically forcibly throw Saber into the time period of the War and have her compete for it from the outside, this raises a problem: she wouldn't be a spiritual entity and thus wouldn't be able to touch the Grail. That would mean her only way of actually obtaining the grail would be to become a master, and since the Grail selects the masters, the World can't really help her out.

In addition to that, this Holy Grail isn't really the Holy Grail Saber is seeking. The world has no real reason to throw Saber into the war because it wouldn't be able to actually fulfill the contract by doing so. If someone were to attempt to summon Saber, and she were willing to go and fight in the HGW, then the world would have no problem in letting her try, hence her participation in the 4th and 5th wars. But without her specifically being called by Fuyuki's Grail, unless the World is some sort of manipulative mastermind, it has no real reason to believe that its what Saber wants.


And finally, from a line you quoted earlier:

"If there is a chance to obtain the Holy Grail, I [Saber] will be summoned to any battlefield."

We don't know very much about the first three wars, but we do know that no one obtained the Grail in them. The circumstances are unknown, but if the World determined that there wasn't a chance to obtain the Holy Grail, ie from a flaw in the ritual itself, or some abnormality we don't know about, then it would also have no reason to send her. And again, the Grail couldn't care less about Saber herself, so it would have no reason to call her until someone presented an appropriate Catalyst, which didn't happen until the 4th war.