This is my opinion of course. I'm sure those who like one-dimensional fanservice elf-girls would disagree (fair play: when Aerial Knights are called shallow bishounen bait by certain others. At least they have more substance than Mirage with even less screen time). Seriously, though, name one actually meaningful scene that would be removed if Mirage died instead of Messer in episode 10? Well, besides Messer's funeral and Freyja/Hayate's questioning their feelings (which I consider a negative point). Hayate could have been promoted to Mirage's position, Messer could have been hurt, but alive, Kaname would have still be motivated to sing as Mikumo's rival, Hayate could have grown closer to Messer, thanks to Freyja who understood his passion for flight, etc. Remove Mirage, nothing changes so far, but the show improves because we have Messer back.
I'm sure Chuck could even replace her shouting Delta Five/Four/Three.
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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
She's awful because writer never develop her, that's all.
Many people who like Mirage finally start mad to writers after episode, this is writer's fault, not her's.
This is my opinion of course. I'm sure those who like one-dimensional fanservice elf-girls would disagree (fair play: when Aerial Knights are called shallow bishounen bait by certain others. At least they have more substance than Mirage with even less screen time). Seriously, though, name one actually meaningful scene that would be removed if Mirage died instead of Messer in episode 10? Well, besides Messer's funeral and Freyja/Hayate's questioning their feelings (which I consider a negative point). Hayate could have been promoted to Mirage's position, Messer could have been hurt, but alive, Kaname would have still be motivated to sing as Mikumo's rival, Hayate could have grown closer to Messer, thanks to Freyja who understood his passion for flight, etc. Remove Mirage, nothing changes so far, but the show improves because we have Messer back.
I'm sure Chuck could even replace her shouting Delta Five/Four/Three.
Sorry, Thess, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Mirage might have been misused so far - I'll give you that - but she is a main character, no matter how you put it. No amount of arguing will change that. Messer wasn't and his death did have meaning - even if it could have been handled better (or not).
Anyway, that's my take on it.
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It's always a great time to immerse yourself in Deculture love! All hail the Empress!!!
She's awful because writer never develop her, that's all.
Many people who like Mirage finally start mad to writers after episode, this is writer's fault, not her's.
I don't care. We had an interesting Delta II, in a triangle, with an engaging relationship with Hayate: Messer. And he was killed off. Now it dawns me. I can too blame the writer for keep around a lame fanservice character like Mirage over a great character like Messer.
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Originally Posted by BetoJR
Sorry, Thess, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Mirage might have been misused so far - I'll give you that - but she is a main character, no matter how you put it. No amount of arguing will change that.
From how the show is introduced most of the times, the protagonists of Delta are Hayate and Freyja, not Hayate, Freyja and Mirage. So yes, she's pretty ditchable if you don't force a love triangle (and it was perfectly nice friendship without her meddling - so her major contribution was ruining the friendship dynamic I liked so much. Way to go. Yes, I'm pretty pissed with her role as plot device).
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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Yes, probably. Some people dislike knight pretty boys while others dislike fanservice elf girls without meaningful contribution to the plot (and bonus for sullying the Jenius name).
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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
I know! Makina and Reina are true protagonists now, bye bye Hayate.
This replaced that image with the new opening. Get with the news.
I'm talking about interviews and magazines, generally the ones introduced as the protagonists (not just important characters) are Hayate and Freyja. Mirage's importance lies on the fact she's a member of the main triangle, but not because she's a protagonist. Same as how the Walkure are so featured because they are the main idols, but only Freyja is a protagonist there. I hope this sheds some light. Mirage's only an important character when comes to romance, which I despise of the Delta main triangle, so unfortunately, she gained my scorn for messing with a refreshing friendship.
The manga versions divide the team-POV.
Protagonist of Delta Squad (adaptation of the anime) = Hayate (male lead)
Protagonist of the Walkure (that badly drawn manga more focused on the music side) = Freyja (main heroine).
Protagonist of the Aerial Knights (the white knight blackened wings or whatever the title of the manga is called) = Keith (main rival, main potential fremeny in the making)
Mirage was never a pivotal POV of the story. Her meaningful "role" is in the triangle. Remove her, and we'll only be missing a horrible forced romantic dynamic. No such loss. Just IMO. The Kaname/Arad/Messer thing was frankly more interesting and dramatic than whatever they are doing with Hayate, Freyja and Mirage.
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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
I think it's been obvious so far that Mirage is only a main character in name. Mostly thanks to being part of the triangle. She hasn't really had an impact on the plot. Whereas you have supporting characters that have more relevance with much less screen time.
For example you have Arad who knows the truth and how Hayate's dad is related to the whole Nuking incident. That's a plot driving point for him.
Then you have Mikumo who is connected to the windies/protocolture in some mysterious way which will probably be the biggest plot reveal of them all.
Then we had Messer who was the Ace and his death pushed Hayate into finding a strong resolution to end the war and become a better pilot/take things more seriously.
I'm trying to see how Mirage can have an influence on the story as a plot device but I see nothing. We still have 10 episodes to go but I'm not holding out much hope for her. If she were to be relevant I'd imagine they'd have done something with her character (that didn't revolve around just making Hayate/Freyja come off as stronger) within the first 2/3 of the story.
I'm trying to see how Mirage can have an influence on the story as a plot device but I see nothing. We still have 10 episodes to go but I'm not holding out much hope for her. If she were to be relevant I'd imagine they'd have done something with her character (that didn't revolve around just making Hayate/Freyja come off as stronger) within the first 2/3 of the story.
I wouldn't mind her that much if she hadn't taken Messer's place and done nothing with it (he was my favorite male character of Delta, okay?), and push romance when I liked the friendship dynamics. So in my eyes she ruins the show. Sure, it's bad writing, but it focuses on her specifically.
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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Yeah, the bad character development does seem to focus on her. With the rest of the cast you get the general idea of their stance in the story and the part they play but so far with Mirage it's just ?????
Kawamori pretty mutch wasted Mirage potential to be great in this show. I like her, but she seema to be nothing more than the third character in this fake love triangle.
I wish they would do more with Mirage, too, but until just the last episode, Hayate also was a showcase of underdevelopment. So I think it is unfair to put the onus on Mirage for badly developed characters.
Seriously, I now think the elongated triangle of Delta could well be a symbol for Freyja having pulled waaaay ahead in terms of character development. Maybe Kawamori is overcompensating for screwing up Ranka.
Really? I don't think Hayate is underdeveloped at all. You could argue that he was severely lacking in the romantic department but on a general basis his character has been decently fleshed out and has equal screen time as Freyja. As for it seeming that Freyja has more "focus" I think it's more that Freyja's character is more likeable and therefore to the audience it comes off as her being "too developed".
I wish they would do more with Mirage, too, but until just the last episode, Hayate also was a showcase of underdevelopment. So I think it is unfair to put the onus on Mirage for badly developed characters.
Seriously, I now think the elongated triangle of Delta could well be a symbol for Freyja having pulled waaaay ahead in terms of character development. Maybe Kawamori is overcompensating for screwing up Ranka.
I don't think Hayate is underdeveloped for the reasons CriiGV gave. He started as an aimless, ambitonless youth without a home or anchor, and now he changed completely, understanding passion and knowing the meaning of home. He wants his sky back, and I mean, Ragna.
Freyja's nothing like Ranka, though. She's like a younger and chipper country bumpkin Sheryl.
Spoiler for movie and some show spoilers:
She has some hopes and dreams for a 15 years old, instead of a washboard like Ranka (and Ebata's art is closer to younger Sheryl than Ranka - though really she doesn't resemble either of them but she looks a bit closer to the young Sheryl with her dual hair and features while Ebata draws Ranka with really enormous oval eyes, nothing like Freyja's features). I've said this again before, but she seems wayyyy alike movie Sheryl only more friendly less spy version (even if she had a short while suspicion of espionage ), but look at the package: gave protagonist the sky/wings/desire to claim the wind/sky, short-lifespan tragedy emphasis, speshful special resonance with said pilot which now includes to sense her feelings too (which Alto got with Sheryl randomly in the first movie), token fate childhood memory (while they didn't meet as children, 99% sure that Hayate's father gave Freyja that music player and we know the father sent that fold quartz to Hayate, indirectly linking them by UNMEI). Kawamori is reusing a lot of his movie Frontier troupes, specifically those shared with Alto and Sheryl with Hayate and Freyja. Though, I wish he hadn't framed it in a romantic way.
I do agree she's the best developed and most likable of the cast. Hard to top the motivation behind her backstory in Delta.
About birthdays. They are significant and different when they appear in every Macross show, IMO.
Spoiler for for SDFM, 7, Frontier:
In the original Macross, Minmay's birthday wasn't really portrayed as the focus of the episode (despite the name), because Hikaru was ascended, got responsibilities as a new leader, and he was introduced to his new subordinates, including Max. If anything, the episode subtly hints their lifestyles are incompatible. The "You can't help it, you're a soldier." Or the "This is what's bad with soldiers." Furthermore, Hikaru doesn't even bother to give Minmay a personalized present: he forgets about it and ends up giving her his medal, which she trivializes. During the brief birthday visit, she also acts petulant, demanding a present, and flirts with Max.
In Macross 7, Mylene's birthday was placed a night/hours before a suicidal mission she was forbidden to go, so it was like a coming of age, for her to realize the horrors of war and try to follow her loved ones into battle, even if they try to coddle her. The only romantic part was Gamlin proposal to her "If he returns from the mission." But the focus was less romantic and more of a coming of age, IMO. Though interestingly, Gamlin's present is kind of selfish, he couldn't even find out Mylene's birth stone, so he bought a diamond to symbolize his squad and use it as a proposal ring. Was that what Mylene wanted the most or was what Gamlin wanted the most? Macross original episode also showed the cracks and miscomunication between Minmay and Hikaru (plus his one side love), even so I think this one and the original one was more about the coming of age about duties of Hikaru and Mylenne.
In Macross Frontier, is when it turns fully romantic because Alto's birthday (also a coming of age and adulthood for Alto - significant not just in symbolism as of Mylenne) was a competition between Ranka and Sheryl. It showed Sheryl as the top winner who had the means and understood what Alto wanted: a real sky. While Ranka's present was cute but it was more convenient to what she wanted to give him for her sake: tickets for her concert and cookies. One person gets the other, the other girl doesn't yet.
Now we have Macross Delta with the appropiate title of Hesitating Birthday. The one vacilating was Hayate. He was hesitating about Freyja, I guess: his feelings and the gift, but all seemed to fit together in the end? This birthday episode isn't just a symbolism for a coming of age for Freyja, or rather the end of a chapter, half of her life already (which Hayate is reminded to his chagrin) but also a love letter and gratitude to her by the whole Chaos cast. It's not a formal celebration like Mylenne's, but a touching informal one that was far warmer, imo. Freyja gives and receives love. She is tirelessly helping Chuck's siblings so they won't miss their sister, she always helps and tries to make others happy, so this was like a "thank you" to her. It's truly celebrating Freyja, I think, like no other birthday really celebrated other birthday people. And Hayate, speaking of gifts, shows that just like Sheryl, he understands what the birthday person wants the most, despite his hesitation of choosing the gift. He chooses one that suits Freyja, instead of Hayate: he thinks about her because he wants to make her happy. Unfortunately, IMO, this was framed romantically not just as pure friendship, and it had a heavy romantic atmosphere. It's also the only instance where birthday person and gift-person are enjoying themselves together:
1. Hikaru had to dash for a mission in Macross, ditching Minmay in her birthday, only to be reminded too late about it.
2. Mylene wasn't in the mood of celebrating. The party was glum.
3. Alto couldn't spend his birthday with Sheryl because of her sickness, so Ranka replaced her instead in that sky.
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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
The problem with Hayate is for me that he has almost no personality traits beyond "happy go lucky" and "fight". Yes, he was searching for a purpose at the start and found it very soon into the series. Since then, he has not moved an inch forward on the character progression scale. Now, with his fathers past coming into detail, it might do something interesting again with his character, we'll have to see. But he is almost as underdeveloped as Mirage to me.
Why I was comparing Freyja to Ranka was more because of the loli singer archetype. Kawamori already did great strides in making Ranka a better character in the movies (to the detriment of Sheryl and Alto, whom he brought down) and I am seeing this as a type of continuation of that trend.
The problem with Hayate is for me that he has almost no personality traits beyond "happy go lucky" and "fight". Yes, he was searching for a purpose at the start and found it very soon into the series. Since then, he has not moved an inch forward on the character progression scale. Now, with his fathers past coming into detail, it might do something interesting again with his character, we'll have to see. But he is almost as underdeveloped as Mirage to me.
I don't know about it. He was acting like a rebellious child to Messer and he changed his attitude since he died. He wasn't so stagnant like Mirage whose entire "personality" relies on the forced triangle.
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Originally Posted by magnuskn
Why I was comparing Freyja to Ranka was more because of the loli singer archetype. Kawamori already did great strides in making Ranka a better character in the movies (to the detriment of Sheryl and Alto, whom he brought down) and I am seeing this as a type of continuation of that trend.
Freyja's not the loli Walkure though. Reina fits that fetish with her underdeveloped and flat body (she's really popular apparently for this reason - color coded green even for this). Freyja's looks curvier than normal for a 14-15 years old. Typical shoujo protagonist body, rather than a loli-fetish one, IMO. Freyja's personality reminds me of several shoujo main characters like a more adult version of Ahiru from Princess Tutu, for example. I'm sure I brought this up before. The selflessness trait and extreme empathy in particular. I do think it's refreshing Kawamori isn't spending a whole show for the chosen female singer (TM) to figure out why she must sing for that isn't just for stage fever or fame. I liked Sheryl and Minmay narratives, as different they were, also Ranka a bit less, but man if it wasn't repetitive. I don't think he could do more of this after Sheryl and Ranka, so he tried a more 'Basara' approach.
Spoiler for Macross Zero spoilers??:
Besides we did have a literal loli: Sheryl's grandmother, Mao, once. And she was well liked too. I liked her better than Sara at any rate, Sara was just boring, IMO. Not as much as Mirage, but that's a feat.
Now is the age of the little boys: Heinz.
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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
In my view, Hayata has had some very good, very smooth, very subtle character development. But it is so smooth and subtle that it's probably easy to miss.
In the first few episodes, Hayate was a loner, a drifter, a guy trying to find his place in the universe but feeling like nothing quite worked for him. Then he met Freyja. Freyja had a big impact on Hayate, and sparked something inside of him, a renewed hope.
Hayate was then recruited by Arad, and in the early going, Hayate was very much a rebellious loner. He just wanted to fly, he had no respect for the military.
In Episode 3, Hayate then had another change of heart, realizing that he had a lot to learn and that he should humble himself some. So after initially butting heads with Mirage, Hayate reached out to her.
Then carefully and gradually the rebellious loner found a place in Delta Squadron. You could even say he's found a whole new family here. Hayate still has a very free-spirited heart, but he's also found a niche in life, and has made a lot of important connections. Hayate now has more people that he truly cares about. He's become part of a team.
So the rebellious and slightly abrasive loner has become the receptive and caring team player. That's considerable character development, if you ask me. But the thing is that Hayate is still a chill easy-going happy-go-lucky guy. At a surface level, he's much the same, so the change is subtle.
Now, I can certainly understand someone preferring Alto, although I personally don't have a strong preference between Alto and Hayate. There are some interesting parallels and divergences between Alto and Hayate, but that's probably best left for a different post on a different thread.
Yes, probably. Some people dislike knight pretty boys while others dislike fanservice elf girls without meaningful contribution to the plot (and bonus for sullying the Jenius name).
More like just you.
Many "others" not a fan of her, but i don't see they hate her like how you doing right now.
And no she don't ruined the show, writers ruined the show.
Things are simple, i want her more developed, you want delete her since beginning.
Both way can improve the show, that's for sure.
But the writers end up half-ass done with her, therefore it's writer's fault.
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