[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

So basically I just need to prove that Personality X = furniture, and then I can start making theories about killing personalities, right?

Genji is a personality. Just like Shannon and Kanon, he has also been referred to as furniture since EP1. Therefore, the human controlling the personality "Genji" is Person X. Knox's 1st. I can't use a Culprit X. So unless I can think of a specific person that controls this "Genji" personality, I can only conclude that my method of figuring out what is furniture was wrong.

Huh, that didn't work out very well.
If Genji = furniture is not a valid reason for him to be a personality, then Kanon = furniture and Shannon = furniture are also not valid reasons.

You realize though that even if you use this logic to make personalities like this. The existence of the personality in your theory inadvertently SUPPORTS the idea of personalities in Shkanon right? Just because you add more doesn't make it work less.

At least when I did it I showed that it was possible personalities were genetic for George.

And when Lyricalaura did it Kinzo was being hidden because he was senile and the Beatrice personality was in control. When you do it you don't even give any hints. I find that disgusting.

Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen

Kanon's viewpoint is not objective! And the Out-of-Game TIPS confirmed that Genji was painting the magic circles! Therefore, Genji painted the circle!

...the question is why. Was Genji working with Shannontrice?

Stop using out of game reds. I called it obnoxious when Chronotrig did it and it's the same for me in this case too.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Judoh

You realize though that even if you use this logic to make personalities like this. The existence of the personality in your theory inadvertently SUPPORTS the idea of personalities in Shkanon right? Just because you add more doesn't make it work less.

At least when I did it I showed that it was possible personalities were genetic for George.

And when Lyricalaura did it Kinzo was being hidden because he was senile and the Beatrice personality was in control. When you do it you don't even give any hints. I find that disgusting.

Except his point is to illustrate an absurd abuse of the authorial trust by providing a similarly valid, yet obviously ridiculous example.

[Laserworm]

But if this is true that means that someone in ep5 who survives the 7 killings has an objective point of view. Hmm.. I'm curious now.

Ok if Erika represents the same person in both games. Then it can only be one of these few (Still scanning ep5 for mentions of people not being subjective though)

EDIT: Gohda, Rudolf. (Only 2 left)

[Renall]

Erika can't be Gohda's alternate personality. Chopsticks are anathema!

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Judoh

And when Lyricalaura did it Kinzo was being hidden because he was senile and the Beatrice personality was in control. When you do it you don't even give any hints. I find that disgusting.

If you want a hint, I'll give you one. Jessica has been shown saying that she has multiple personalities, in the sense that she acts as two different people. So I can make the case that when Jessica is dead, in reality Jessica faked her death and became Jessi, her personality at school.

Wasn't it that Shkanon supporters say that since Jessica mentioned personalities, it satisfies Knox's 8th? If you can take something Jessica said and call it a clue for Shannon/Kanon, then I can call it a clue for anyone else. (if that's not the case, then tell me something that satisfies Knox's 8th without it being a devil's proof)

At least, it makes sense to me that way.

[Laserworm]

Erika can't be Gohda's alternate personality. Chopsticks are anathema!

Then either Erika doesn't represent anyone or it changes with ep 5 and 6.

For ep 5 we then have

Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, and Gohda (So far that my scanning has shown)

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

If you want a hint, I'll give you one. Jessica has been shown saying that she has multiple personalities, in the sense that she acts as two different people. So I can make the case that when Jessica is dead, in reality Jessica faked her death and became Jessi, her personality at school.

Nicknames and attitudes when you are in a different place are not personalities. This point was raised earlier and was shot down by Marion. Try again.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

Except his point is to illustrate an absurd abuse of the authorial trust by providing a similarly valid, yet obviously ridiculous example.

We don't need 3 pages of this tripe though. The point has been raised before.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Judoh

We don't need 3 pages of this tripe though. The point has been raised before.

Then I guess I'll drop it for now because I'm getting tired of making up ridiculous arguments without any proof. I'm starting to confuse which side I'm supporting when I do that.

And even though I still haven't gotten a Knox's 8th for Shkanon that isn't a devil's proof, the discussion over what is considered a clue might take just as long, so there really isn't a need for one.

But if you're planning on convincing me Shkanon is true, I won't accept it without a Knox's 8th, so do as you like.

[Laserworm]

Is is just me or does Kyrie seem completely heartless in ep5. In the flashback where she suggests pressing Krauss for money. She is perfectly willing to leave Krauss and his family high and dry.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

I won't accept it without a Knox's 8th, so do as you like.

At this point I don't care anymore. I just hate the faggotry you people have to use demonstrate your points on how ridiculous it is. It's just as obnoxious as saying that "Ryu said this in said interview therefore Shkanon is almost certain to be true".

I don't like Shkanon either BTW

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Judoh

At this point I don't care anymore. I just hate the faggotry you people have to use demonstrate your points on how ridiculous it is. It's just as obnoxious as saying that "Ryu said this in said interview therefore Shkanon is almost certain to be true".

I don't like Shkanon either BTW

To me, it was just a different strategy. Instead of messing around with chain-locked rooms and saying that they have to be separate people, I went the opposite direction and said that everyone can have a second personality if they wanted to. Kind of similar to Battler suddenly supporting Beatrice in EP5, really.

It was just another attempt at proving it wrong, nothing more.

[Judoh]

He is what I don't get about you guy's dead not existing theory. With Kinzo he is dead before October 4th so it's impossible for a living Kinzo to exist because he's dead. With Erika at least she dies of Hypothermia or something before any of the murders happen and it takes almost the whole day of October 4th for the GM to set everything up.

With Kanon all you have is a dead kid in a closet. Why does he not exist just because he dies after all of the other murders happen? Does Kyrie also not exist because her head was severed? Does not existing mean your not a piece in play anymore or something? Or is him being dead just the easiest way out for you guys?

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by Judoh

He is what I don't get about you guy's dead not existing theory. With Kinzo he is dead before October 4th so it's impossible for a living Kinzo to exist because he's dead. With Erika at least she dies of Hypothermia or something before any of the murders happen and it takes almost the whole day of October 4th for the GM to set everything up.

With Kanon all you have is a dead kid in a closet. Why does he not exist just because he dies after all of the other murders happen? Does Kyrie also not exist because her head was severed? Does not existing mean your not a piece in play anymore or something? Or is him being dead just the easiest way out for you guys?

Beatrice in Episode 4 is able to say to Battler "And right now, there is no one other than you on this island." In that sense, the only person who "existed" was Battler. Dead people, being dead, might as well not exist. People who die no longer exist on the board, they're taken.

[Laserworm]

Erika can not represent anyone in ep5. No one's POV is objective, they are all subjective.

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by Laserworm

Erika can not represent anyone in ep5. No one's POV is objective, they are all subjective.

Hence my theory: Player Erika is able to discern objective facts located around Erika's corpse. No one's viewpoint is objective.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Judoh

With Kanon all you have is a dead kid in a closet. Why does he not exist just because he dies after all of the other murders happen? Does Kyrie also not exist because her head was severed? Does not existing mean your not a piece in play anymore or something? Or is him being dead just the easiest way out for you guys?

I'm not sure who you mean by, 'You guys.' And I'm not sure where you're coming from either.

But the main problem I found was that the term 存在/exist isn't a widely used term. They don't talk about Jessica not existing after she dies, or Kyrie, or any other person. Except for Kinzo, Battler and Kanon.

With Kinzo, there were lines about a 'living Kinzo' and just 'Kinzo' as well. The ones about him being dead are with just the 'Kinzo.' But unlike Battler and possibly Kanon, Kinzo is dead before the game starts.

With Battler and Kanon the 'does not exist' includes 'in this room.' With Battler we know he left the room. With Kanon however...

If we are to be strict about the 'exist' term then I'm thinking it must be similar to Kinzo or it must be similar to Battler. None of this making up a new definition of getting around the term 'exist.'

[chronotrig]

I think it's really simple. "Exist" can refer either to a dead person or an alive person. After all, the reason we're arguing about it is because neither English nor Japanese defines the word to mean only one or the other. Why should the red have extra hidden rules?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy

So basically I just need to prove that Personality X = furniture, and then I can start making theories about killing personalities, right?

Genji is a personality. Just like Shannon and Kanon, he has also been referred to as furniture since EP1. Therefore, the human controlling the personality "Genji" is Person X. Knox's 1st. I can't use a Culprit X. So unless I can think of a specific person that controls this "Genji" personality, I can only conclude that my method of figuring out what is furniture was wrong.

Ronove is furniture. There are lots of strong hints that Ronove is Genji. Therefore Ronove can be the identity Genji can wear when 'Genji is dead'.

Originally Posted by Judoh

With Kanon all you have is a dead kid in a closet. Why does he not exist just because he dies after all of the other murders happen? Does Kyrie also not exist because her head was severed? Does not existing mean your not a piece in play anymore or something? Or is him being dead just the easiest way out for you guys?

I usually see it that 'you exist', but once you die, 'you' cease to exist, and are replaced by a different object which is 'your corpse'.

Incidentally you can have more than one of those, since if you own anybody else's corpses before being dead, they can, in a sense, be 'your corpses' when you die.

[Laserworm]

Exist has two definitions. EDIT: Ok actually 5...
1. To live, or be alive.

2. To be; especially to be a real, actual, or current thing, not merely something imagined.

EDIT: 3. Occur; to be present or found in a particular place or situation

4. Survive; to manage to survive or stay alive.

5. Live an unsatisfactory life, to live an unsatisfactory, joyless, or humdrum life, as opposed to an exciting or meaningful one.