Claymore Chapter 119

[Demon6666]

Originally Posted by Ulquihorror

if little girls aren't reflected on priscilla's eyes, what about miata? Can Priscilla see Miata?

Well nobody actually would know this, but my best guess is that because Miata has yoki, Priss would probably notice her.

[MalakTawus]

My guess is that Prissy doesn't have that "problem" anymore now that her new persona has awakened, afterall in the village there were no survivors (not even little girls),and i doubt that the hellcats could all that with Prissy there......

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by Claymore!

So? what does that prove? What she said was "I won't eat you" but that is because ABs don't like to eat other ABs. so i guess i don't understand the point you were trying to make.

And Priscilla didn't start crying and return to human form when she was fighting Rigaldo.

Exactly, why would Priscilla say something like that? She was like a child looking for food. Let's look at her lines,

Page 11, she looks at Rigardo and states, "you don't look too delicious."
Page 14, "I won't eat you."
Page 19, "oh? so big..."


It is true that there is no clear indication of when Priscilla started to regress, but let us ignore the dialogue of the extra chapter for a moment and consider how Priscilla acted during the end of the Teresa arc and the Destroyer arc. At the end of the Teresa arc she acknowledged that her comrades were trying to kill her and she was even sarcastic to Irene after ripping her arm off. In the destroyer arc, she was calm, methodical, sadistic, and laughed at her opponents expense. There is a single trend, out of potentially many, between the Teresa arc and the Destroyer arc, trash talk.

The question that must be asked is, does the Priscilla of extra chapter 3 talking to Rigardo match with the personality of the Priscilla of the Teresa arc or Destroyer arc? She does not in my opinion. The Priscilla in Extra chapter 3 appears relatively innocent and child-like and only talks of food in comparison to the Priscilla of the Teresa arc and later arcs who actively belittle their opponents. Ultimately, the distinction that I drew to make that conclusion is based off the assumption that Priscilla loves to trash talk and make fun of her opponents. Priscilla is that obnoxious kid lurking on Halo Xbox-live chat, waiting. Let's consider,

-She jokes at Irene after ripping her arm off and then "kills" Irene.
-She tells a crying Beth, "Don't worry you'll be joining her soon enough," and then kills Beth.
-After Dauf threatens her, she wittingly responds, "funny.... I was thinking of doing the same thing to you" and then rips his guts out.

We see nothing of that trash talk element in her fight with Rigardo. In all honesty Priscilla is a bitch and the in Extra chapter 3 she was relatively nice. Therefore, some type of regression had to have happened in my opinion. Another possibility is that she has multiple personalities, which I feel is not very legitimate at this point.

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by Claymore!

Except the fact that whatever Isley did to her was enough to make her Regress back to her childhood. So it was obviously more than a scratch. And Isley could have killed her if he wanted to, He just saw her as an opportunity for a weapon and surrendered. He could have cut her to pieces with his other hand but he didn't.

People who go on that point (that Pris has never really been damaged or does not fear any amount of damage) like to forget that on occasion she has absolutely tried to avoid damage (chapter 100, pg 15) and was damaged countless of times regardless of the fact that it does hurt her, and she would like if possible to avoid damage.
Conclusion: Not only is Pris psycho, but she sucks at -avoiding- damage.

Pris fans also forget a little fast that augmented Dauf did indeed hurt her (she cries in pain, chapter 102, pg 20), and forced her to take her awaken appearance after ripping her body to shreds (chapter 102, pg 24-28).

Again, they forget that her psycho face does not mean that she does not feel pain or does not care because she is "that" powerful.
She simply does not care because she is that mentally retarded.

Heck, she came near complete annihilation while it helped her remembering things (chapter 103, pg 16).

What makes her somewhat op in my opinion is only a downright stupid amount of regenerative power (as in regenerate 70% of her body in 1/10 of a second), and almost (Deneve did avoid one chap 101 pg18) unavoidable attacks that can obliterate almost anything.

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

People who go on that point (that Pris has never really been damaged or does not fear any amount of damage) like to forget that on occasion she has absolutely tried to avoid damage (chapter 100, pg 15) and was damaged countless of times regardless of the fact that it does hurt her, and she would like if possible to avoid damage.
Conclusion: Not only is Pris psycho, but she sucks at -avoiding- damage.

Pris fans also forget a little fast that augmented Dauf did indeed hurt her (she cries in pain, chapter 102, pg 20), and forced her to take her awaken appearance after ripping her body to shreds (chapter 102, pg 24-28).

Again, they forget that her psycho face does not mean that she does not feel pain or does not care because she is "that" powerful.
She simply does not care because she is that mentally retarded.

Heck, she came near complete annihilation while it helped her remembering things (chapter 103, pg 16).

What makes her somewhat op in my opinion is only a downright stupid amount of regenerative power (as in regenerate 70% of her body in 1/10 of a second), and almost (Deneve did avoid one chap 101 pg18) unavoidable attacks that can obliterate almost anything.

Forget? What do you mean? Elandyll we had this debate and I've been waiting for your counter-point for days. Seriously, how can I forget so fast when our debate was never finished. That is going a little too far in terms of generalizations

To answer one of your counter-points of why she dodged/blocked attacks from Dauf, Alicia, Beth if it did not matter, I respond that that type of fighting style has been Priscilla's style. The question should not be why she dodged, but why she did not outright crush Dauf. We saw how she annihilated the Destroyer's form, yet she never used that same attack against Dauf, Alicia, or Beth. In fact, she used weaker attacks and moves against those opponents. Priscilla does the bare minimum to win. Priscilla is conservative in her fighting style. She suppressed her powers as a claymore way back in the Teresa arc and she is no different as an AB.

To reiterate, whether she dodged or not can be seen as irrelevant as she could have outright destroyed them like the Destroyer. Yet, she did not.

Returning to a later point, why would Priscilla and Riful need to fear damage when they can regenerate any piece of their bodies? Riful was hit in the head multiple times and did not care until the moment she was out of Yoki against Alicia. Those wounds by Alicia were, in a sense, critical wounds. Why would Priscilla be any different? She has already shown instant regenerative properties of her limbs, face, and chest before Zombie Dauf.

There is no sense of critical damage for Priscilla, like Riful, until they are out of yoki. Priscilla has yet to run out of yoki. It is true Hubris. Riful met her end by it and so too will Priscilla (well probably). Honestly, it does not get any closer to the term hubris. If this were Greeks myth, the Olympians would have smite them a long time ago.

Also, I disagree with the your assertion that the fact that Priscilla showed pain means critical damage. Pain does not correlate with critical damage. She did "gah" when Dauf hit her in her human form, but when half her faces was missing as well has her limbs in her AB form she casually stated "I am going to rest a while." How do those two instances add up in pain=meaningful damage? In fact, Priscilla is entirely inconsistent with when she shows pain or "gah". Reread the fight against Alicia/Beth she gets hits by Beth's spines and Alicia cut her arm off without a sign of pain and suddenly Beth hits her in the back with a tail and she finally utters "gah."

Priscilla does not have unlimited power, but she does posses near-instant regeneration along with a lot of yoki. Furthermore, she is incredibly conservative in her use of yoki, making her even worse to fight since she rarely wastes energy. For that reason, I simply disagree that she has been critically injured at all, yet.

Edit: I cannot tell you how many times I changed the sentence order of that second paragraph.

[Shiek927]

I'd respond more thoroughly, except you pretty much said everything I was already going too Nixl -- Prissy is conservative in her fighting because it really has never taken much to obliterate her opponents; she has never needed to really push herself. An example is her fight against Isley where, as I said, her body was like on auto-pilot -- even then, with her mind a mental mess, and not at all focusing on the battle, her fighting patterns were as you described.

I would not say though that they do not feel true damage until they run out of yoki -- it's more though, as I said, who's doing the damage; Riful took a slice to the head by Claire which did absolutely nothing, but a chomp by an Abyssal Eater "was the largest she ever felt". Priscilla is essentially the same thing, but a much much vaster scale -- that doesn't mean though, as I've said, that they can't feel pain (durability in human form is the same no matter how powerful you are), hence various reactions we've seen from both....it's just that it's no real loss to both of them. Another example I could say is Helen's fight against Isley.....he's cried out in pain and it looked like he was in real trouble, but did Helen actually damage Isley? was he in danger of being killed by her? Absolutely not...all she did, was essentially salt on open wounds, wounds created by the real source of damage to him which were the Eaters. Even so, what she was doing to him was still frustrating and hurtful....she was merely excentuating what was already there.

Nothing else really, you basically said everything and I'd rather not just repeat. For the hell of it though, and because it strangely is kept being repeated over and over again....No, Dauf (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=197) did not force her to awaken -- he simply annoyed her (or rather, he was the last straw in a string of distractions) and she powered up to tear at his arm (as per her fighting style)...but we see from her white malleable human arm that she didn't awaken until after she striked, not before. If she was forced to awaken, her malleable arm would have the dark-streaks on it as we saw in her fight with Isley, signifying her awakened state. No, she did not power-up because he was too strong for her, but, when she used her left arm on him a few pages before, she was merely surprised because she discovered he was holding Riful, hence the monologue.

[Ulquihorror]

Not relevent to this particular chapter, but in chapter 112, Deneve mentionned that the pseudAbs they killed escaped for some reason. Can anyone pinpoint or theorize about that? Why did they escape? Or will it be one of the many forgotten pits surfaced by Yagi but forgot about?

[creb]

Originally Posted by Ulquihorror

Not relevent to this particular chapter, but in chapter 112, Deneve mentionned that the pseudAbs they killed escaped for some reason. Can anyone pinpoint or theorize about that? Why did they escape? Or will it be one of the many forgotten pits surfaced by Yagi but forgot about?

I forgot all about that. I suspect so has Yagi.

[TheRussianMeatClob]

Lol I always thought we would hear about the Awakend Being Plant at some point in the future as a flashback but yeah maybe you guys are right. Maybe Yagi just forgot about it.

[Demon6666]

I'm not sure how the manga business works in Japan, but i doubt publishers would allow for an author to make the manga up as they go along. It would make sense to me that Yagi already has the entire story on paper. The Deneve comment will probably be addressed in future chapters.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Demon6666

I'm not sure how the manga business works in Japan, but i doubt publishers would allow for an author to make the manga up as they go along. It would make sense to me that Yagi already has the entire story on paper. The Deneve comment will probably be addressed in future chapters.

I don't know....(http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...=604).....Yagi is far from perfect and it feels like it's both ways: that it has a outline, whether general or detailed, of where he wants to go, but he's definitely also making things up as he goes as well; proof lying in his patchy ways of new stuff conflicting with the old.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Demon6666

I'm not sure how the manga business works in Japan, but i doubt publishers would allow for an author to make the manga up as they go along. It would make sense to me that Yagi already has the entire story on paper. The Deneve comment will probably be addressed in future chapters.

Well, if all the manga and anime relating to the manga business is anything to go off of (admittedly a big if), I'd say they may have a big picture idea of where the story is going to go, but on an actual detail level, they do indeed make up the story as they go along.

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by Nixl

Forget? What do you mean? Elandyll we had this debate and I've been waiting for your counter-point for days. Seriously, how can I forget so fast when our debate was never finished. That is going a little too far in terms of generalizations

Unfortunately my work has me going places at times, and I do not have as much time as I wish I would to check the forum all the time
As per generalizing, I do not mean to pick on anybody in particular, and I just mean that I have seen some points raised countless of times by various people who happen to be fans of Priscilla.

To answer one of your counter-points of why she dodged/blocked attacks from Dauf, Alicia, Beth if it did not matter, I respond that that type of fighting style has been Priscilla's style. The question should not be why she dodged, but why she did not outright crush Dauf.

It is a bit disingenuous to choose what the question is here, don't you think?
I believe that Pris choosing to try to avoid attacks at times is actually a very important point when some seem to consider outright that Priscilla does not fear any form of damage (it is implied by your and many's consideration of Pris, including Shiek).

We saw how she annihilated the Destroyer's form, yet she never used that same attack against Dauf, Alicia, or Beth. In fact, she used weaker attacks and moves against those opponents. Priscilla does the bare minimum to win. Priscilla is conservative in her fighting style. She suppressed her powers as a claymore way back in the Teresa arc and she is no different as an AB.

That goes toward supporting my point, which is that Pris has a crazy regenerative power, can unleash incredibly devastating attacks, but on the other hand she
1) sucks at avoiding damage (even when trying to, as portrayed by the manga). She simply does not have the skill
2) her attacks are not completely unavoidable, as it has been shown

To reiterate, whether she dodged or not can be seen as irrelevant as she could have outright destroyed them like the Destroyer. Yet, she did not.

Dodging is absolutely relevant, as it implies that not only she can be hurt, but she could also be killed eventually. For the destroyer, it is important to note that she merely destroyed a shell, from a creature that has at that point little sense of self or self-conservation.

Returning to a later point, why would Priscilla and Riful need to fear damage when they can regenerate any piece of their bodies?

To a point. If Riful has a limit, there is nothing to tell us that Pris doesn't, even if the bar is much higher than Riful.
Riful has also indicated several times that her core is not her head.

Riful was hit in the head multiple times and did not care until the moment she was out of Yoki against Alicia. Those wounds by Alicia were, in a sense, critical wounds. Why would Priscilla be any different?

No. The problem is that Riful was progressively depleted of her Yoki, most of the damage in that sense having been already done by the Feeders and the shards (when near 50% of her human form body was obliterated - cf manga).
You forget that "the head" does not matter when we talk about an Abyssal (or any strong AB in general). It's about where they true "core" is, and for Pris we still have to determine where it is. In fact, the occasions where she has tried to dodge might indicate that the original attack was getting too "close" to home?

She has already shown instant regenerative properties of her limbs, face, and chest before Zombie Dauf.

There is no sense of critical damage for Priscilla, like Riful, until they are out of yoki. Priscilla has yet to run out of yoki. It is true Hubris. Riful met her end by it and so too will Priscilla (well probably). Honestly, it does not get any closer to the term hubris. If this were Greeks myth, the Olympians would have smite them a long time ago.

I honestly do not think it is about Hubris (well, maybe a little), but it actually is mostly Psychosis.
She simply does not know fear anymore, has a very rudimentary sense of self preservation (that flew right out of the window when Dauf was beating her to a pulp, simply to experience the sensation she had known when fighting Theresa).
She has cracked a first time when she killed her own "father" back when a yoma killed her family, and then while fighting Theresa she ended up completely losing it over that fear of losing her life. It simply derives from that.

Also, I disagree with the your assertion that the fact that Priscilla showed pain means critical damage. Pain does not correlate with critical damage. She did "gah" when Dauf hit her in her human form, but when half her faces was missing as well has her limbs in her AB form she casually stated "I am going to rest a while." How do those two instances add up in pain=meaningful damage? In fact, Priscilla is entirely inconsistent with when she shows pain or "gah". Reread the fight against Alicia/Beth she gets hits by Beth's spines and Alicia cut her arm off without a sign of pain and suddenly Beth hits her in the back with a tail and she finally utters "gah."

I did not say that pain was necessarily indicative of "extreme" damage, simply that it indicated that Pris was in no way "that" powerful that she did not feel pain or that damage was inconsequent.
We -know- that damage whittles down Yoki, and that eventually it depletes the pool. As per the sheer amount of Yoki that Pris possesses, it can only be deducted via approximations. The best source of approximation right now is that the Destroyer (made of 1 AO and 1 #1 equivalent that have merged) is containing her with the help of Clare for whom we have no real estimation of her real power (estimated to be in the single digits at this point). It all makes for something superior to 1 AO, but by how much exactly?

Priscilla does not have unlimited power, but she does posses near-instant regeneration along with a lot of yoki. Furthermore, she is incredibly conservative in her use of yoki, making her even worse to fight since she rarely wastes energy. For that reason, I simply disagree that she has been critically injured at all, yet.

Imo the closest that she has been to be really seriously injured was during the Dauf fight, when she almost fell in darkness while experiencing the memories of the Theresa fight. At that point, a memory triggered her self - preservation reflex, regenerating instantly and unleashing a devastating attack in a flash - chap 103, pg 17)

[Nixl]

And so the quote python begins.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Unfortunately my work has me going places at times, and I do not have as much time as I wish I would to check the forum all the time
As per generalizing, I do not mean to pick on anybody in particular, and I just mean that I have seen some points raised countless of times by various people who happen to be fans of Priscilla.

Perhaps, but it still comes off as generalizations, furthermore your use of it appeared as a means to merely brush off counter-points. While that may not have been your intention the post can certainly come off as such.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

It is a bit disingenuous to choose what the question is here, don't you think?
I believe that Pris choosing to try to avoid attacks at times is actually a very important point when some seem to consider outright that Priscilla does not fear any form of damage (it is implied by your and many's consideration of Pris, including Shiek).

I do not believe it is disingenuous or dishonest to bring up such an aspect to discuss. My mere intention was to flesh out a better understanding of the original question with another question in order get closer to a mutual understanding for the reason that I believe this will inevitably lead to "to each his/her own." Just as it is important in your perspective that we see Priscilla dodging or failing dodge I think it is also important to note the vast arsenal she used or neglected to use as both are aspects of a fight. Both are just two halves of the same coin. Which, in my opinion, both considerations of her ability to dodge and attack leads us to the analysis of Priscilla's style of fighting. A conservative and bare minimum approach.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

That goes toward supporting my point, which is that Pris has a crazy regenerative power, can unleash incredibly devastating attacks, but on the other hand she
1) sucks at avoiding damage (even when trying to, as portrayed by the manga). She simply does not have the skill
2) her attacks are not completely unavoidable, has it has been shown

I come to a different conclusion. The reason she sucks at dodging is because she uses a method of only using the bare minimum to get by. Against Alicia, Beth, and Dauf her version of "trying" to dodge merely entailed doing the least amount of work to get by. Let's look at the Priscilla vs Alicia battle. Priscilla was initially cut losing a limb(s) and while that may seem like a failure to dodged or "sucking," remember that suddenly Priscilla completely dodged a full on attack by Alicia and proceeded to slap her head off. To me, that indicates that Priscilla could have dodged Alicia's attacks from the beginning, but neglected to do so. Returning to one of my previous arguments Priscilla's style literally entails that she "sucks" and lure the opponent in, which she then outright crushes.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Dodging is absolutely relevant, as it implies that not only she can be hurt, but she could also be killed eventually. For the destroyer, it is important to note that she merely destroyed a shell, from a creature that has at that point little sense of self or self-conservation.

Perhaps, but Priscilla's ability to attack is just as relevant and I do believe it has not been properly addressed. Now, while it may have been premature to call it irrelevant, I do believe her ability to dodge is inherently linked to her ability to attack. Different sides of the same coin. While Priscilla did only attack the Destroyer's shell I believe we must consider how that attack would have annihilation characters such as Dauf had she chose to attack in that same manner. Furthermore, the significance is that she destroyed such a massive object in a split of a second. To me that indicates both the extreme speed and effectiveness of Priscilla's attacks that until that point she has neglected to use.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

To a point. If Riful has a limit, there is nothing to tell us that Pris doesn't, even if the bar is much higher than Riful.
Riful has also indicated several times that her core is not her head.

I agree that Priscilla does have a limit, just that we have yet to see it. And, while it may true Riful's core was not her head I think it is significant that both Priscilla and Riful have decentralized bodies in which "critical" damage is not so easily accomplished against the two. In that sense, while Dauf may have heavily damaged Priscilla I doubt any of it was in fact critical, especially considering Priscilla went on to destroy the Destroyer's shell and at best the Destroyer could only contain rather than kill Priscilla.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

No. The problem is that Riful was progressively depleted of her Yoki, most of the damage in that sense having been already done by the Feeders and the shards (when near 50% of her human form body was obliterated - cf manga).
You forget that "the head" does not matter when we talk about an Abyssal (or any strong AB in general). It's about where they true "core" is, and for Pris we still have to determine where it is. In fact, the occasions where she has tried to dodge might indicat that the original attack was getting too "close" to home?

First, I disagree on the point that all strong ABs can regenerate to such a degree. I would separate ABs by their body types ( solid vs decentralized). Riful, Agatha, and Priscilla appear to have indefinite bodies or decentralized cores, hence they have survived some nasty attacks. However,wWe know from the Witch's Maw arc that Dauf has trouble regenerating, hence Riful had to step in and save him. Also, during the Pieta arc Helen made the comment that regeneration must have never Rigardo's strong point. Neither Dauf nor Rigardo seemed capable of shifting their cores. Therefore, unlike Riful who can take hits to the head I strongly doubt Dauf or Rigardo have that same type of benefits even as strong ABs. Furthermore, I would make the observation of the Abysmals that while Riful's body appeared composed of hair/ribbon that Isley and Luciella had rather solid body types, hence why Isley's form showed teeth and bone when his inner cheek was exposed. Another point to add is that all AB bodies may not be universally equal. In the same way there is a Defensive vs Offensive dynamic between claymores I believe the same may exist for AB as well. Hence, while Riful may not have the attack prowess of Isley's arm weapons she makes up by having an easily repairable body that can outlast opponents.

Second, I return to my point that such half-assed dodging or dodging at all is merely Priscilla's style.

Third, with the exception of Agatha, who also had a decentralized core, I do not believe we can conclusively state that either Riful or Priscilla have a true core. While it may appear a convenient weakness, we simply do not know. For the moment, whether Riful or Priscilla have a core or not, I do believe we can conclusively state that their ability to survive or protect their potential core from harm depends on yoki.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

I honestly do not think it is about Hubris (well, maybe a little), but it actually is mostly Psychosis.
She simply does not know fear anymore, has a very rudimentary sense of self preservation (that flew right out of the window when Dauf was beating her to a pulp, simply to experience the sensation she had known when fighting Theresa).
She has cracked a first time when she killed her own "father" back when a yoma killed her family, and then while fighting Theresa she ended up completely losing it over that fear of losing her life. It simply derives from that.

One question, I thought Priscilla killing her Dad was an anime only factor, I need to reread real quickly.

On that note, I would offer an alternative cause. Rather than Priscilla merely being afraid I would also include that Priscilla was a fanatic. Based Priscilla's inner-monologue she believed that her cause was the side of justice and that Teresa was evil. As childish as it may appear, I think that serves as a core aspect of Priscilla as a human. She, like a religious fanatic, believed that evil would always lose. Priscilla was a naive, but insanely strong self-righteous, justice-obsessed Claymore. Furthermore, based on Irene's testimony Priscilla had yet to meet an opponent that forced her to release youki. Enter Teresa, an opponent that Priscilla clearly believed was evil, but also an opponent that she could not easily crush. Teresa essentially destroyed Priscilla's world view of good vs evil, because Teresa endured her attacks. At that point, Priscilla went on a rampage in order to save her neat and orderly view of the world. Now, while I do remember her calling out to father to save her that the fear resulted from having her world-view savaged by Teresa more so than Priscilla just simply being beat. Therefore, I would conclude that it was not so much that she was about to die, but rather she could not take out "evil" before dying.

Another reason I would argue her breakdown was more directed at not being able to "vanquish evil" than looming death was that Priscilla repressed her strength to the point that it was counter-productive to her survival. If avoiding death was Priscilla's only goal then she could easily have released all her youki far earlier. Yet, until she had that internal monologue she did not released her yoki. Hence, I do not think fear of death alone accounts for Priscilla's actions. She was incredibly screwed up to begin with.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

I did not say that pain was necessarily indicative of "extreme" damage, simply that it indicated that Pris was in no way "that" powerful that she did not feel damage or that damage was inconsequent.
We -know- that damage whittles down Yoki, and that eventually it depletes the pool. As per the sheer amount of Yoki that Pris possesses, it can only be deducted via approximations. The best source of approximation right now is that the Destroyer (made of 1 AO and 1 #1 equivalent that have merged) are containing her with the help of Clare for whom we have no real estimation of her real power (estimated to be in the single digits at this point). It all makes for something superior to 1 AO, but by how much exactly?

Imo the closest that she has been to be really seriously injured was during the Dauf fight, when she almost fell in darkness while experiencing the memories of the Theresa fight. At that point, a memory triggered her self - preservation reflex, regenerating instantly and unleashing a devastating attack in a flash - chap 103, pg 17)

Yet, Priscilla's show of pain is inconsistent with the damage she has received at times, especially when zombie Dauf smashed half her face off versus when Beth poked her with her tail.

Personally, I think the Destroyer/Claire blobbing(is there even a verb for this?) of Priscilla is in many ways an intermediate fusion such as what Luciella/Raphaela did. However, they do not have the power to overtake Priscilla, but rather put her asleep like the dormant state Raphaela lived in with her body fused to Luciella.

[Shiek927]

I believe that Pris choosing to try to avoid attacks at times is actually a very important point when some seem to consider outright that Priscilla does not fear any form of damage (it is implied by your and many's consideration of Pris, including Shiek).

It's arrogance Elandyl -- she knows she could almost instaneously regenerate from almost any attack, but it's hard to ignore a huge assault coming right at her face...whether or not she feels like actually dodging is up to her and her assessment because, more likely then not, it's not gonna make any difference to her either way if she gets hit or not. Again, that's just arrogance on her part.

1) sucks at avoiding damage (even when trying to, as portrayed by the manga). She simply does not have the skill
2) her attacks are not completely unavoidable, has it has been shown

1) Again, it's not that she stinks at avoiding damage; it's that she usually doesn't need to avoid them because it probably isn't gonna make any difference to her either way.

2) Well, of course -- that point though also greatly stems from how much of her power she is actually using as, as before, she uses her power conservatively.

But yes, she eventually has her limitations in her capabilities as does everyone else; she is merely an slight exception in that we have yet to actually see her limitations.

Dodging is absolutely relevant, as it implies that not only she can be hurt, but she could also be killed eventually. For the destroyer, it is important to note that she merely destroyed a shell, from a creature that has at that point little sense of self or self-conservation.

Well...yes; was it ever a question that she could eventually be hurt? or killed? That's a given -- it's just a matter of finding something else that's on par with her enough to actually truly hurt her, the same way the Eaters and Alicia were to Riful.

To a point. If Riful has a limit, there is nothing to tell us that Pris doesn't, even if the bar is much higher than Riful.
Riful has also indicated several times that her core is not her head.

Agree entirely -- Priscilla is merely on a level higher then Riful or just about anybody...that doesn't mean she doesn't eventually have her limit(s); we just have yet to really see them, since she's never been pushed hard enough yet.

Riful's core is really whatever Riful makes it, since she can move around her innards, dodging Claire's sword for instance. Priscilla seems to have that, but to an even higher degree (losing half her face) -- really all Awakened Beings can manipulate their own body....how much is the question as, the more power they possess, the more they are capable of; spawning organic weaponry for instance.

No. The problem is that Riful was progressively depleted of her Yoki, most of the damage in that sense having been already done by the Feeders and the shards (when near 50% of her human form body was obliterated - cf manga).
You forget that "the head" does not matter when we talk about an Abyssal (or any strong AB in general). It's about where they true "core" is, and for Pris we still have to determine where it is. In fact, the occasions where she has tried to dodge might indicat that the original attack was getting too "close" to home?

That last bit, is just speculation -- again, we don't know if she was dodging because she saw herself in actual danger, or because she was merely dodging for the hell of it (because as much as she could regenerate herself, it's still hard to ignore a monstrous-sized attack coming straight for you).

I honestly do not think it is about Hubris (well, maybe a little), but it actually is mostly Psychosis.
She simply does not know fear anymore, has a very rudimentary sense of self preservation (that flew right out of the window when Dauf was beating her to a pulp, simply to experience the sensation she had known when fighting Theresa).
She has cracked a first time when she killed her own "father" back when a yoma killed her family, and then while fighting Theresa she ended up completely losing it over that fear of losing her life. It simply derives from that.

Mmm, this bit is personal opinion and I'm not gonna debate you much on that -- though, if their were moments where she was in actual danger and that's why she dodged, as you say, it's no longer correct to say she has no sense of self-preservation. To say that would make it seem like she doesn't care whatsoever whether or not she gets damaged, and the moments where she had dodged, or realized she could (or could have) been in danger, such as when she noticed her arm had a parasite in it and repelled it from her, says otherwise; and we know she can feel fear because it did seem like she was worried when Helen/Deneve told her what happened with Claire; not to mention, saving Raki's life with her arm.

I don't want to argue with you too much on this bit, but their is too much in my opinion that shows, even in her monstrous Awakened persona, has emotions, sense of self-preservation etc....it's just all very twisted because that's just how she is.

I did not say that pain was necessarily indicative of "extreme" damage, simply that it indicated that Pris was in no way "that" powerful that she did not feel damage or that damage was inconsequent.
We -know- that damage whittles down Yoki, and that eventually it depletes the pool. As per the sheer amount of Yoki that Pris possesses, it can only be deducted via approximations. The best source of approximation right now is that the Destroyer (made of 1 AO and 1 #1 equivalent that have merged) are containing her with the help of Clare for whom we have no real estimation of her real power (estimated to be in the single digits at this point). It all makes for something superior to 1 AO, but by how much exactly?

Agree with the first paragraph, and as for her power....heh; I'm not sure how I can tackle this without just going over the same things as we did on the first debate (or is this just a continuation?)....giving our too-different ideas -- I think we can at least agree with this: both Raciella and Priscilla are vastly stronger then an individual Abyssal One, which pretty much goes without saying.

Imo the closest that she has been to be really seriously injured was during the Dauf fight, when she almost fell in darkness while experiencing the memories of the Theresa fight. At that point, a memory triggered her self - preservation reflex, regenerating instantly and unleashing a devastating attack in a flash - chap 103, pg 17)

Again, I wouldn't call that as being actually damaged.....if anything, it happened as you described: as the memory resurfaced (incredibly, her Awakened persona seems to be lacking what her human persona remembers and vice versa :O, or at least that's what I began to realize not that long ago), the shock of it made her instinctually lash-out at Dauf; not so much because she realized she was in danger, but merely at the surprise that she remembered. If anything, you could even call her death of Dauf "accidental"; she was far more concerened with her resurfacing memories then she was of him, and his death was merely a product of her shock in remembering.

Originally Posted by Nixl

One question, I thought Priscilla killing her Dad was an anime only factor, I need to reread real quickly.

Nope, it was in the manga as well; ironically enough, when she began to transform did she reveal this -- she killed him which obviously let it's mark.

I....would not use the same choice of words as you Nixl; she was just a child after all, so her idealistic black/white views on good and evil really could not have been all that surprising....everything that happened to her really was no different then what happens to most of the people who become warriors; it just had that much more of an effect on her because of her age and idealism.

And really..... it's not like we can forget that Teresa's death was as much as her own fault as well (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...on#post3513724).

[Nixl]

You know, sometimes I feel that when writing a python quote/reply I forget what I was doing after a while.

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

It's arrogance Elandyl -- she knows she could almost instaneously regenerate from almost any attack, but it's hard to ignore a huge assault coming right at her face...whether or not she feels like actually dodging is up to her and her assessment because, more likely then not, it's not gonna make any difference to her either way if she gets hit or not. Again, that's just arrogance on her part.

Dodging Helen's long arm attack to end up surprised by Clare's jump and slash is arrogance ?
I would also hardly call that attack "a huge assault".

1) Again, it's not that she stinks at avoiding damage; it's that she usually doesn't need to avoid them because it probably isn't gonna make any difference to her either way.

Then why does she try to avoid to be hit at times?

2) Well, of course -- that point though also greatly stems from how much of her power she is actually using as, as before, she uses her power conservatively.

But yes, she eventually has her limitations in her capabilities as does everyone else; she is merely an slight exception in that we have yet to actually see her limitations.

And my conclusion is that (as it has been debated before I believe) Priscilla is quite obviously a glass canon. Enormous offensive potential, little ability to avoid or diminish damage. The only thing (albeit huge) that offsets this is her ... dare I say "retarded" overpowered ability to regenerate.

Well...yes; was it ever a question that she could eventually be hurt? or killed? That's a given -- it's just a matter of finding something else that's on par with her enough to actually truly hurt her, the same way the Eaters and Alicia were to Riful.

Well that's the thing. I believe -and many others as well- that Clare with the Destroyer, once they achieve their potential are absolutely on par for the course.



...

That last bit, is just speculation -- again, we don't know if she was dodging because she saw herself in actual danger, or because she was merely dodging for the hell of it (because as much as she could regenerate herself, it's still hard to ignore a monstrous-sized attack coming straight for you).

So ... do you even see the contradiciton here?
On one hand you and Nixl say thather style is simply to fight "conservatively". Then you say that she dodges "for the hell of it"... Please make up your mind.

Mmm, this bit is personal opinion and I'm not gonna debate you much on that -- though, if their were moments where she was in actual danger and that's why she dodged, as you say, it's no longer correct to say she has no sense of self-preservation. To say that would make it seem like she doesn't care whatsoever whether or not she gets damaged, and the moments where she had dodged, or realized she could (or could have) been in danger, such as when she noticed her arm had a parasite in it and repelled it from her, says otherwise; and we know she can feel fear because it did seem like she was worried when Helen/Deneve told her what happened with Claire; not to mention, saving Raki's life with her arm.

I don't want to argue with you too much on this bit, but their is too much in my opinion that shows, even in her monstrous Awakened persona, has emotions, sense of self-preservation etc....it's just all very twisted because that's just how she is.

Well, yes. But on one hand you say she is arrogant (Nixl uses "hubris a -lot-), fights conservatively, but on the other hand we can easily point out that she dodges attacks at time, and also seem sometimes to ignore pain and damage entirely while at other times she is surprised by attacks an can show a lot of pain.
Either Yagi just goes along making things up about Pris according to what he believes will make the most interesting scene -at the moment-, or Priscilla is truly Psycho and changes behavior from one moment to the next. Either way, it means neither of us can really interpret her reactions during fights.

...

Again, I wouldn't call that as being actually damaged.....if anything, it happened as you described: as the memory resurfaced (incredibly, her Awakened persona seems to be lacking what her human persona remembers and vice versa :O, or at least that's what I began to realize not that long ago), the shock of it made her instinctually lash-out at Dauf; not so much because she realized she was in danger, but merely at the surprise that she remembered. If anything, you could even call her death of Dauf "accidental"; she was far more concerned with her resurfacing memories then she was of him, and his death was merely a product of her shock in remembering.

Well, I guess it can depend on how you interpret the scenes and frames of chapter 103 pages 16-17, while her world is going dark and the memories of her fight with Theresa are coming back.

And really..... it's not like we can forget that Teresa's death was as much as her own fault as well (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...on#post3513724).

Interestingly, by re-reading the Pris/ Teresa fight recently, I just realized then that when Pris struck (chopping both hands), Teresa was not using 10% of her Yoki anymore, probably explaining the difference between the few pages preceding and then.

Teresa clearly let her guard down, and paid dearly for that.

[Nixl]

Personally, I do not see the same conflict with dodging and conservative fighting style Elandyll. The reason I say that is due to the fact that Priscilla follows largely idiosyncratic tendencies. It barely makes sense, but Priscilla as a character never made sense even to other claymores. In fact, Priscilla's fighting style can be seen as either completely illogical and terrible or some Sun Tzu's Art of War technique in play. It freaked Irene out, it freaked Teresa out, it freaked Rigardo out, and it freaked Isley out. Most other characters found it completely illogical, but in a sense that is how Priscilla wins, even against Teresa. It is that element of surprise and Priscilla is a natural at it.


It is not dodging "for the hell of it" per-say, but rather those are the motions of a fight. Priscilla is going to engage. However, she always starts out the fight reserving her strength, hence the "suck" factor. Could she just take almost every hit and regenerate? Yes, probably, but Priscilla is trying to win, but she always starts out sucking.

To take your own words she does act like a Glass Canon, but in truth I do not think that she is. That aspect is due to idiosyncratic nature since her introduction in the Teresa arc. She plays meek and terrible just before she explodes. Dauf was just poking the dragon and rule 1, don't poke the dragon....or kick a bear in the nuts. It's a no-no.

Edit: Also I blame the school system for my use of hubris. It is what happens when the Odyssey and the Illiad as well as other Greek myth were drilled into my classroom.

Edit 2: I brought up Sun Tzu's Art of War, but thinking over it, Priscilla's fights so far do kind of remind me of a chapter or two.

[Shiek927]

Dodging Helen's long arm attack to end up surprised by Clare's jump and slash is arrogance ?
I would also hardly call that attack "a huge assault".

*sigh, I was just trying to make an example -- An elephant can be charging at me; I can be totally invulnerable to it, that doesn't mean I don't notice it; sometimes avoiding it can't be helped, regardless of whether or not it actually hurts me.

And my conclusion is that (as it has been debated before I believe) Priscilla is quite obviously a glass canon. Enormous offensive potential, little ability to avoid or diminish damage. The only thing (albeit huge) that offsets this is her ... dare I say "retarded" overpowered ability to regenerate.

Well, as I've expressed, I disagree with that-- her general lack of interest in avoiding attacks isn't so much that she 'can't, but more so because she's bored; yep, she's so bored at all this weaklings around her and all their silly attacks that she is barely gonna put any effort into it. She plays with her opponents and whether or not she dodges them, how quickly she kills them, everything....it all depends really on how interested she is in the fight to begin with.

(conceited huh?)

So ... do you even see the contradiciton here?
On one hand you and Nixl say thather style is simply to fight "conservatively". Then you say that she dodges "for the hell of it"... Please make up your mind.

Roflmao, my mind was already made up -- for some reason, it's taking more effort to express it then should be. If anything, we both agree that she's almost excessively overpowered, and she is very well aware of it -- so aware of it, that she only gives what it takes to destroy her opponent. You push, she pushes a little bit more, and so on...if you barely give any, she barely tries if even that.

Her willingness to avoid attacks isn't too different -- which may one day come to bite her in the rear if she ends up getting damaged far more then she expected (in which case, she'd then turn up the heat to match and go over said power, assuming she was still alive); depending on how invested she is in the fight, she may or may not even attempt to avoid or put much effort into defending herself....90% of the time, it really doesn't matter either way because almost everything doesn't tickle her, so she'll charge in not caring, or perhaps even noticing. This is a person who is all too aware of the power she has -- it's not that she doesn't avoid attacks most of the time because she can't, but because....well, why should she even bother?

As I said, she plays with her enemies. It's an attitude, again, that may come back to get her in the end, if she is wrong in her assessment of her opponent and they initially damage her far more then she expected.

Well, yes. But on one hand you say she is arrogant (Nixl uses "hubris a -lot-), fights conservatively, but on the other hand we can easily point out that she dodges attacks at time, and also seem sometimes to ignore pain and damage entirely while at other times she is surprised by attacks an can show a lot of pain.
Either Yagi just goes along making things up about Pris according to what he believes will make the most interesting scene -at the moment-, or Priscilla is truly Psycho and changes behavior from one moment to the next. Either way, it means neither of us can really interpret her reactions during fights.

Well, we've gone into the whole pain-bit already, and we've already established that she's far from perfect and she can be taken by surprise...She is really just a person that, in my opinion, is very arrogant because her back-and-forth behavior which confuses you, honestly fits that -- to me, it makes sense because what she does fits with her mood, which, as you say, sometimes gets the better of her when she is genuinely surprised by her opponent.

By considering the persona we're dealing with, hell, I can't argue too much if you just call her psycho -- I would disagree with calling her retarded, because she is far far from it in either persona; if anything (since we're talking about it specifically), her Awakened persona is very intelligent in her assessments of Alicia/Beth, Dauf etc...she's almost analytical you could say. She still however, sometimes misjudges her opponents and they end up surprising her.

So far, they haven't surprised her in a way that actually has put her in danger's way, but that could very well change. Hell, you could say it has considering the state she's currently in.

Well that's the thing. I believe -and many others as well- that Clare with the Destroyer, once they achieve their potential are absolutely on par for the course.

That's too personal; not gonna delve into that too much. To believe that, you'd probably have to be a believer in the Teresa-black-box in order for Raciella to have a big enough boost....or even that, perhaps, Raciella always had the power to subdue Priscilla but simply lacked the control in order to do so because she was too random and chaotic before.

Their's a million ways you can look at it all, so I'm not go too deep on this one.

Well, I guess it can depend on how you interpret the scenes and frames of chapter 103 pages 16-17, while her world is going dark and the memories of her fight with Theresa are coming back.

I can believe that -- really so much of what makes Priscilla so fascinating to me is because she is such a huge mystery. While Yagi, in my opinion, did extremely mess up with all this scent nonsense recently, throwing a wrench at everything we knew about her...she is still in many ways, how she's always been -- this intriguing puzzle that is so difficult to solve. While I do hope that, for Claire as well, we get many answers to all sorts of things that can finally be cleared up, I hope their is still things we don't know the answers to in order to retain that mystique.

Interestingly, by re-reading the Pris/ Teresa fight recently, I just realized then that when Pris struck (chopping both hands), Teresa was not using 10% of her Yoki anymore, probably explaining the difference between the few pages preceding and then.

Teresa clearly let her guard down, and paid dearly for that.

Pff, as I said in that link, she got what was coming -- that whole sequence of events was her own fault because she let everything happen the way she did. Considering she was essentially in control from the very beginning, it's no one's fault but her own that everything went down the way it did.

Whether ahniliating her opponents early on, or letting the Slayers pass on by, or convincing them to stop...whatever scenario you come up with, she could have done any of them at almost any time. As I said, she spent too much time being a bad-ass, and got killed for it.

[Demon6666]

So if awakened Priscilla is said powerful, then imagine how overpowered Teresa would have been if she had lived up till now. assuming we use her battle with Priscilla as a benchmark for the amount of Yoki they possess, then Priscilla would be nothing more than a fly to an awakened Teresa. No wonder yagi had to kill her off. Sad but probably true.

i'm not sure if there's been much debate on this but was Teresa half awakened? if not then that would make her even more Godlike than ever.

/closes Teresa bible