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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 20 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 24 | 39.34% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 23 | 37.70% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 8 | 13.11% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 4 | 6.56% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 1 | 1.64% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 1 | 1.64% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll |
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2013-03-12, 11:05 | Link #221 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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On a related note, everything about the criminal coefficient so far has been to address violent crime. So how is white-collar crime handled? Arguably, this kind of crime can be potentially have worse repercussions than the violent versions.
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2013-03-12, 12:00 | Link #222 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Before someone commit a crime, that person is still innocent. The world isn't divided between good guys and bad guys from birth. You can't just sort them out before anyone has tried to do anything.
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2013-03-12, 13:04 | Link #223 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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A consideration about Sibyl might be the following.
Even in our world, people who hold power tend to be sociopathic. People who desire to control others typically have little empathy, are egocentric, are unable to see other people's points of view, are rude, etc. Essentially our leaders are pretty sociopathic to begin with. Politicians don't typically want to become politicians out of a desire to work for others, but to further their own ambitions. They want to obtain power and are usually desperate to maintain that power. People get high off power. It gets worse when you peer into the world of greedy corporate CEO's. Essentially, even if we view Sibyl as a bunch of sociopaths, there's actually little difference between them and the people who hold power in our society today.
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2013-03-12, 13:36 | Link #224 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Sybil is not an unnaturally bad form of government; there are plenty of real life tyrannical societies in history that are just as bad or worse. But just because it isn't uniquely bad, doesn't make it good. People need to know what is actually running their country. This is the bottom line. If your rule depends on the population not knowing what you are doing, then you are running a scam.
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2013-03-12, 16:09 | Link #225 | ||||
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Could you tell us the episode and scene where they say that there aren't any judges or lawyers anymore? While it is obvious that criminal law has been greatly simplified, that doesn't necessarily hold true for the other types. Quote:
What constitutes 'proof that he is actually trying to commit a crime'? Nobody has claimed that the world is divided between good and bad guys from birth. I have no clue where you got that idea from, but as it is, that last sentence is a useless truism which doesn't contribute to your argument at all. Also, you completely failed to address my argument about gun control laws and the like. Am I to understand that you are ceding my point? Quote:
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Last edited by merakses; 2013-03-12 at 16:24. |
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2013-03-12, 16:19 | Link #226 | ||||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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2013-03-12, 16:50 | Link #227 | ||||
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Join Date: Mar 2013
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Last edited by merakses; 2013-03-12 at 17:01. |
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2013-03-12, 17:23 | Link #228 | ||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 33
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Take the story of Perseus, for example. His grandfather got a prophecy saying his grandson would kill him, so he locked his daughter up and then we she got pregnant anyway, he set them adrift on the sea. Would you say that he made the right choice to do that?
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2013-03-12, 17:51 | Link #229 | |||||
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Let me clarify what I'm trying to do here: I am performing reductio ad absurdum to the following argument made by Vallen:
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According to you, I should be prevented from putting the bomb. That's denying me the privilege of changing my mind later and not activating it. It's no different whether you're going to read my mind and stop me before I have placed the bomb, or wait until I place the bomb and stop me before I have detonated it. In both cases, you have acted in order to prevent a crime that hasn't even happened yet. Quote:
Last edited by merakses; 2013-03-13 at 02:41. |
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2013-03-12, 18:02 | Link #230 | |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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Before you go all apeshit on me, the point I'm trying to make is that it's either or. You can't protect your "innocents" and your victims at the same time. And are you in a position to decide who has more right to life? A victim, or an "innocent"? |
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2013-03-12, 18:29 | Link #231 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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Your concerns are reasonable of course. I too have doubt as to whether an aggregation of criminally asymptotic individuals can even understand the general populace, but let's put it this way: Once upon a time, Sybil was simply composed of a handful of individuals. At that time, just about all of the people they encountered could be evaluated as asymptotic (but not criminally so), but over time, as the system incorporated more and more minds into itself, the range of asymptotic individuals decreased thanks to a much expanded perspective. Eventually, we reach the current point of the series where the only characters that could be identified as asymptotic would be outright sociopaths. That still leaves the problem of using criminals though. I'm willing to chalk it down to practical concerns, where an asymptotic individual could be gauged by his/her capacity to commit a crime without being detected by the system. I agree it was a fairly questionable decision to use criminals, but it does at the very least take diversity into account from how I see it. Fair point. I had hoped that their capacity for logical thinking could override that collective ego of theirs, especially when it came to vital lifelines like the nation's food supply. Still pretty stupid, I'd say, like the dastardly villain spoiling the details of his evil plan to the hero at the last moment.
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2013-03-12, 18:41 | Link #232 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
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I know this is simply speculation, but personally, I'd prefer a Sybil that is constrained by practical limitations, rather than simply a stupid/extremely arrogant one. The latter kind of ruins the suspense and makes things way too one-sided |
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2013-03-12, 20:37 | Link #233 | |||
Senior Member
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Logically speaking, why would Person A be pointing a gun at Person B? Well, in all likelihood, it's one of these three reasons: 1. Person A intends to shoot and kill (or at least maim) Person B. 2. Person A is threatening Person B, and using the gun to add credibility to his threat. For this, keep in mind that even the act of simply threatening a person can be criminal if you take it to a certain extreme. 3. Person A is out of his mind. Perhaps he's drunk, or on heavy drugs, and isn't fully cognizant of what he is doing. So you have a man out of control, wielding a gun. In either of these three cases, the police should intervene if they're in a position to effectively do so. I'm fairly confident that everybody here would agree with that. Now, could it be that Persona A is just somebody pulling an ill-conceived prank on one of his buddies? Yes, that is possible. But I think it's less likely than the three possibilities I listed above. Sometimes police officers have to use their best personal judgement in making tough calls. That's part of the challenge of being a police officer in the modern world, and one could argue that it relates to the challenge of being a person in a free society. Yes, our world is messier than Sibyl's, in many ways. I would argue that's the inevitable cost of freedom. You either give people freedom and the responsibility and risk that comes with it, or you take freedom away to increase security. You can't always have the best of both worlds. This is one of the questions that Sibyl poses. Personally, I'd rather be a free man in a somewhat messy world than a man who lives in a relatively clean word that is heavily micromanaged by a system like Sybil. Quote:
There comes a point where theoretical discussion becomes so very divorced from reality that it loses all value. Quote:
You don't see anything philosophically troubling about punishing a man for a crime he never committed based purely on some predictive method? For me, that greatly undermines the concepts of justice or fairness. I think you send human society down a very dark path if you embrace a system that dispenses entirely with both of those concepts. I mean, what about the principle of innocent until proven guilty? This is a principle that our criminal justice system is rooted in. I think it's a principle that most people agree with. With this in mind, suppose a police officer sees one man pointing a gun at another, and reacts quickly by tackling the gun-pointer to the ground. The police officer is then informed that the two were actually filming a student movie, and this was part of an action scene. The gun isn't even loaded. The police officer made a honest but very understandable mistake. Well, the police officer will feel sheepish, hopefully apologize, and the gun-pointer isn't arrested. He was never proven guilty of anything. Suppose the police officer pointed a Dominator at the gun-pointer's head, while the police officer was off to the side out of the gun-pointer's field of vision. The gun-pointer tries to think like a criminal in order to perfect his acting performance. The Dominator misreads that as him actually being a criminal. BANG! The actor gets exploded. So much for innocent until proven guilty... Agreed. And given what I think of Tomomi and Yayoi...
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-03-12 at 20:51. |
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2013-03-12, 21:18 | Link #234 | |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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2013-03-13, 00:22 | Link #235 | ||||
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Join Date: Mar 2013
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Do you see anything philosophically troubling with allowing innocent people to die violent, meaningless deaths every day - deaths which could have been avoided, had we utilized such a system - so that we can cater to the general public's opinion of 'justice' or 'fairness'? And if one of these meaningless deaths is someone close to you? The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' would remain basically the same. It's just that we would conceivably be able to prove 'future guilt'. The dominator's readings (or whatever we're using) could hold large legal power in court, for example. Quote:
Also, even if the police is equipped with Dominators, it doesn't mean that they won't try and take suspects into custody first. Quote:
Last edited by merakses; 2013-03-13 at 00:35. |
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2013-03-13, 02:32 | Link #236 |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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I believe Tomomi and Yayoi were deemed latent criminals for a reasn.
Some of you are probably thrown off by the fact that they're pretty nice people. Are you under some kind of assumption that nice people don't do criminal things? Consider the possibility of Tomomi constantly ending up decking his superiors because nothing works the way he is used to? Or going rogue like Ko did? Yayoi I am unsure of, but there was probably a reason as well. Fact of the matter is that she's an underdeveloped character so it's hard to say. Of course, whether there as a good reason probably doesn't even matter to both of you since you guys probably think they shouldn't be arrested until after someone ends up hospitalized or murdered. |
2013-03-13, 03:00 | Link #237 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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What's even more scary than unjustly shooting a person with a Dominator is how people like Yuki got assessed by Sibyl and pushed down a certain career path that made her unhappy. I wonder, just how many chances does a regular person get in Sibyl's world? Would Yuki be allowed to change her life, either via requalification or relocation, if she wanted to? All this talk about Sibyl's predictability models for criminal behaviour and career suitability might as well extend to predicting appropriate courses of education. After all, if it managed to cram Kagari into a prison at age five, what's stopping it from assessing that, for example, children coming from lower income families, who were born into a life of poverty with a whole slew of social issues, will most likely not finish second-level education? So Sibyl, and by extension society asks itself whether it should even invest into their education. Is taking a chance on a near-guaranteed loss for a system even worth the resources and collective effort? Or should it just send a dog with a Dominator after them, to dispense of them before they become a burden to society? We don't do that in our society because we've learned throughout history that we deserve more than one chance, that greatness can emerge from poor social conditions. Most of all, we have a need to believe that we are good people and that the people we surround ourselves with are good. We try to believe people can change, even though sometimes it's hard to keep an open mind, that a child born in Hamas' schools won't go down the path of a terrorist, that someone with bad grades won't resort to drugs, that a person with a drug addiction problem can clear his program and remain straight, that a man with an unhealthy obsession with drawn lolita porn won't molest children in real life, that a woman with a family that made her miserable throughout her life won't grab a knife and slash their throats in their sleep, and finally, that a police officer won't abuse the powers given to him, even though he could shoot anyone quite easily. Quote:
Are you aware on just how many levels that sentence is wrong? Stop being such a hipster. |
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2013-03-13, 03:20 | Link #238 | ||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Yeah I kind of believe that the setting loses its meaning if we don't at least believe the psycho-pass numbers are credible. Otherwise we just got a completely broken system and there's nothing to argue about. The system would just have to go. It's much more interesting to consider a system that actually does what it's supposed to do. Otherwise, why should we care about what Gen is trying to make a point about?
I still think the crux of the show is about the nature of free will and its importance to humanity. That's what Sibyl takes away most of all, and why in the end, it's not worth protecting. Sibyl does create a safe society, more or less (Ignoring the kinda ridiculous hyperoats issue), but that isn't enough. Quote:
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2013-03-13, 04:03 | Link #239 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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You know what's scary? That right now this discussion is equating life and limb as mere statistics. That we can mathematically justify the loss of innocent life if they are statistically insignificant (p<0.05) compared to the population at large.
And really, if some will argue the appeal to emotion that "What if it was your loved one who died because a system that could have predicted and prevented h their death wasn't used?" can be used, we might as well counter with the opposite: "What if someone you loved died because he was predicted a potential murderer even though they haven't even done or thought of such?" If you're a proponent of predictive dispensation of justice then you better be agreeable that it applies to all, and not complain if it happens to you or anyone cloase to you, because if not and you complain of unfairness to you, then you'll be no better than anyone trying to to insist they're above the system and society.
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2013-03-13, 04:39 | Link #240 | ||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Even the first definition of assault plucked off Google answers that correctly. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/assault Quote:
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