2012-03-03, 13:56 | Link #28042 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Although with the eighth game, Battler designed the gameboard in such a way that everything would go fine for the family. That there would be no need for fighting over money. Given that the point of the game was not guide Ange away from fixating on a certain truth, that she should keep the memories of a happy family in her. He would say what he can to convince her to accept it. |
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2012-03-03, 13:56 | Link #28043 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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The scenes match up with the conspiracy theories Ange read, so maybe they were filled in by Reading. We already have reason to believe that other stuff in the first two games wasn't in the text.
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2012-03-03, 14:11 | Link #28044 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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The message bottles might be little more then synopsis of the given stories. Something like Bern's game in arc 8, of the whole of OC (well, perhaps not from the murderer's pov) could very well be what the two are. Also, just to know, is there anything in any games that actually suggest arc 1 and 2 are depicting the same events as we read ? (like, is it possible they are entirely different arcs from anything we've ever seen?). Counterpoint: To be fair it could be possible that Ange reached that conclusion long before the message bottle were publicly released, making Battler's statement still valid tho... |
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2012-03-03, 21:41 | Link #28045 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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As far as I can remember Ange didn't comment about EP 1 & 2... though her words seemed to imply there were differences between the EP 3 we read and the one she read. |
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2012-03-05, 17:31 | Link #28047 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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If I'm not wrong Ange said something along the line of how 'EP 3' (okay, the book she read written by Hachijo Toya) described how Eva ended up in Kuwadorian... while we learn Eva reached Kuwadorian only thanks to EP 4. Also, if 'Ep 3' in Ange's world mentioned Kuwadorian it likely also mentioned the explosion, who wasn't mentioned in our Ep 3.
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2012-03-05, 17:43 | Link #28048 | |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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But i have to agree that EP3 =/= Banquet etc, but i don't think the "other versions" that we didn't saw, have more content than the ones we could see (Aside from the ORIGINAL End o.t.g.W. that in my opinion was a witch hunter's forgery which was later edited by Tohya and/or Ikuko). But i find it quite possible that the published works could have been cut short (Meta scenes for example). |
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2012-03-05, 18:00 | Link #28049 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Hey, wasn't there some issue in EP1 about a survey of the island not turning up Kuwadorian? I wonder if the Reader insertion theory could account for that too. Maybe the Reader saw the forged results of the survey in the future, mistakenly believed they were genuine, and projected them back on the family conference.
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2012-03-05, 18:13 | Link #28050 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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Just one question. What is the general consensus on the golden truth here? How it can be used and how it can defeat/lose to red?
My interpretation is that the golden truth are truths that are at the heart of the Umineko games that can or cannot be disproved by red. For example the elder Beatrice golden truth can be defeated if another person watched the "magic" would just state in red that it was "sleigh of hand". Quote:
Although speaking of different games being read people. Something bugged me in the past. In episode 4 where we read it, where a large chunk of the episode was dedicated to Ange. IIRC Toya wrote episode 4 but even if he/she did not. Wouldn't it be odd for someone to write so many personal stories about someone who is alive after the Rokenjima incident. So at least that part shouldn't be part of the episode. |
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2012-03-05, 20:01 | Link #28051 | ||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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This make possible: - for Hachijo Toya to speculate about her future and include it in his book as an extra in order to show how none of the Ushiromiya survived - for Toya and/or Ikuko (who also might or might not be Yasu) to wonder/worry about Ange's future and picture it in his mind as we see in Ep 4. This would cut Ange's future out of the book, like the meta though. - for Ange to imagine that would be what she would do after Eva's death. As she has through Umineko 4 endings, Ep 4 ending can be merely one she fantasized about. - for Ep 4 to be the truth. Then the other 3 ending we see in Ep 8 would be mere fantasy though. - something else I can't think right now. Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-03-05 at 20:11. |
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2012-03-06, 03:44 | Link #28052 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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If you look at the literature I dug up on Battler/Tooya, it's clear he's working through the issues with his memories. EDIT: And also, I guess it's obvious from the story...
I've always thought (well, after EP8) that he is definitely speculating on Ange's fate after she disappeared. But more than just speculation, the Battler memories still hold enough sway that makes him concerned about Ange's thoughts and feelings. So I think he wrote a few episodes to try and work out how she could be feeling and perhaps EP8 was his last reminder to her that she must think of her family as she remembers and not as the media portrayed them. Assuming EP8 was one of his forgeries. |
2012-03-06, 06:27 | Link #28053 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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I would say that the second one is the most likely. |
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2012-03-06, 12:55 | Link #28054 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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For example, nowhere in Legend's endscroll is it specifically stated that the story which was just shown was what was in the bottle. And nowhere in ep4's discussion of the bottle letters is the actual content of the stories explicitly laid out. We have no idea what the actual message bottle letters said. Indeed, it's impossible to determine from the statements made by any character precisely what stories were what. Honestly, there's no provenance of any kind for Turn. Not even a hint. We just have made the assumption it's the second message bottle because... it was the second episode? There's nothing that actually proves it. Hell, even if Legend and Turn were the message bottles, it doesn't prove what order they were found or released in. About the most definitive thing we get is the claim that Land was a story in a lost message bottle... which may not actually be true or which may be metaphorical, and which helps us in no way because we've never seen what Land was like in the first place. Quote:
I also think it's clear that there is some authorial skewing on Ryukishi's part, because if what we got in each episode were mirroring the true text of the works, we'd have this weird situation where only Legend bothers to go into any detail about the family in an introductory expository sense. That makes absolutely no sense for message bottles or forgeries designed as discrete stories. Either they all contain the same level of introductory text, or none do; to have one story that's very clearly an "introduction" either means that the intended introductory arc was discovered and published by random chance, or that it was a deliberate hoax and no one was ever smart enough to catch on to the fact that the first Rokkenjima story ever found just happens to lay out all the necessary background information like it's trying to instruct everyone on how to set them up. The whole thing is suspicious, but the question is, at what layer is the suspicion supposed to lie? Reader, Author? Prime Universe, Meta-World? The original text, or the text we actually see?
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2012-03-06, 13:09 | Link #28055 | |||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I love how good you are at outlining these kinds of complex, abstract issues. I'll comment later, when I have time. |
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2012-03-06, 15:46 | Link #28057 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
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How - With magic Why - Because she's bored Seriously though, you should try reading the visual novels. The anime cut out a lot of good stuff. |
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2012-03-06, 15:52 | Link #28058 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
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I'm not interested enough. Just wanna know who was the culprit. Seems like ruykishi leaves that open from what I've heard though. Would probably throw my computer out of window after reading 50 hours of these and just to notice the mystery is left unsolved.
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2012-03-06, 16:12 | Link #28060 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
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That's a weird way to think about it. I mean I'd just like to know. You don't gain anything from not telling me if you know the answers. I'm not gonna read it anyway. You are just making me sad. Well if you enjoy making me sad then it's ok
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