[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[DokEnkephalin]

Ach, this just occurred to me. After solving Berkastel's ep8 mystery, it was stated in Red "If George committed murder outside the island, sometime before this crime, he could be a 'culprit' without killing anyone on the island, and it would be possible for him to lie."

This means that Kanon and Shannon could've been alive until dead any time before the game started. Then it wouldn't matter when "Kanon is dead" or "Shannon is dead" was delivered, it would always be true.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Ach, this just occurred to me. After solving Berkastel's ep8 mystery, it was stated in Red "If George committed murder outside the island, sometime before this crime, he could be a 'culprit' without killing anyone on the island, and it would be possible for him to lie."

This means that Kanon and Shannon could've been alive until dead any time before the game started. Then it wouldn't matter when "Kanon is dead" or "Shannon is dead" was delivered, it would always be true.

George would be a 'culprit' of a separate crime that didn't occur on Rokkenjima in such a hypothetical scenario. Such a scenario cannot be used to establish George's guilt.

If guilt were to be established, it would have to be proven that Crime 'X" was related to Crime "Y".

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Ach, this just occurred to me. After solving Berkastel's ep8 mystery, it was stated in Red "If George committed murder outside the island, sometime before this crime, he could be a 'culprit' without killing anyone on the island, and it would be possible for him to lie."

This means that Kanon and Shannon could've been alive until dead any time before the game started. Then it wouldn't matter when "Kanon is dead" or "Shannon is dead" was delivered, it would always be true.

Which is why (amongst other things) I despise shannon/kanon/yasu/beatrice. They can cheat pretty much any red and you can still argue it as "true".

edit:

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

George would be a 'culprit' of a separate crime that didn't occur on Rokkenjima in such a hypothetical scenario. Such a scenario cannot be used to establish George's guilt.

If guilt were to be established, it would have to be proven that Crime 'X" was related to Crime "Y".

Nope. The rules were "cuplrit = murderer". A murderer is a murderer whenever he killed. Could be 20 years ago and unrelated, still a murderer. Don't remember it was stated that "cuplrit = a person who killed on the island"

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

George would be a 'culprit' of a separate crime that didn't occur on Rokkenjima in such a hypothetical scenario. Such a scenario cannot be used to establish George's guilt.

If guilt were to be established, it would have to be proven that Crime 'X" was related to Crime "Y".

I'm not trying to establish guilt, just pointing out that history prior to the game will be a factor in the premises established in read. So delivering the Red Truth "George is a killer" doesn't necessarily mean he's responsible for the death of anyone on the island. It does imply that he's capable of it, and that can't be ignored. But by the same prior history, Shannon and Kanon could be dead before we, the audience, ever knew them.

[Kealym]

This isn't a strong arguing point, because it works for literally anybody.

You can literally say "Battler is dead" at any point, and be referring to Asumu's baby, or Eva is dead, and be referring to Eva Peron.

It's a word trick that is possible, I guess, but really, really unlikely to be in actual use anywhere.

[DokEnkephalin]

How strong a point does it have to be if it weakens every other point? When did anyone define their terms? "Battler is dead!" was asserted; did anyone define it as a temporal truth or contextual truth? Or a truth so absolute that even a resurrection could re-assert it?

[Kealym]

Oi, I guess you're right.
I just mean that it's a logic that can apply universally, not just to Shannon, Kanon, and George.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Better question is "what's up with Beatrice being seen by Rosa giving the chapel key to Maria?" As hammy as she is across the board, she doesn't make an appearance on it unless that appearance serves some purpose.

To make it harder for Battler to dismiss her as not existing? I actually don't think that either Rosa or Kyrie saw anyone they didn't recognize; I think they just lied and said they did.

I still would like to know why Maria had to have the key at all. That's what I was asking about.

Also it just dawned on me that you seem to be suggesting that the adults decided to have a Halloween party in the chapel by themselves in the middle of the night. Can you expound on that?

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

This is a clue that Shannon/Kanon had nothing to do with it, just like Beatrice appears to be out of the loop in the fantasy scenes.

I don't understand what you mean when you say "Beatrice was out of the loop in the fantasy scenes" when in the fantasy scenes she was, like, the whole orchestrator of George's trip to the parlor.

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Ach, this just occurred to me. After solving Berkastel's ep8 mystery, it was stated in Red "If George committed murder outside the island, sometime before this crime, he could be a 'culprit' without killing anyone on the island, and it would be possible for him to lie."

This means that Kanon and Shannon could've been alive until dead any time before the game started. Then it wouldn't matter when "Kanon is dead" or "Shannon is dead" was delivered, it would always be true.

Except that there are lots of reds that require them being alive at points during the games, like Kanon being the 9th victim in EP4 for example.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

To make it harder for Battler to dismiss her as not existing? I actually don't think that either Rosa or Kyrie saw anyone they didn't recognize; I think they just lied and said they did.

For the sake of the EP2 narrative they did.
This is most likely achieved through (A) Rosa's fragile mental state concerning Beatrice and a disguise (though simple) would possibly throw her off, and (B) Kyrie probably only saw her for a second and did not pay too special attention. It's a usual "disguise" trick in mysteries...it's forbidden for them to be employed on a larger scale, like for example if somebody disguised as Beatrice was constantly with them.

I don't understand what you mean when you say "Beatrice was out of the loop in the fantasy scenes" when in the fantasy scenes she was, like, the whole orchestrator of George's trip to the parlor.

I think out of the loop rather refers to the fact that she is no longer the one calling the shots on the board. Actually, Gameboard-Beatrice seems to vanish from the Banquet board altogether once EVA has been crowned the witch of this game. The ghost-like being appearing to EVA seems to be the Beato from the meta-plane and seems qute different from the Beato who appeared on the board of the EP2 and EP4 narrative.

She appears to George and tells him of a "way to revive Shannon by borrowing his magic potential" but all these things fall pretty much out of the usual way she is shown...even further she has no influence on the board altogether, down to having to ask Ronove to take care of the stakes.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

For the sake of the EP2 narrative they did.
This is most likely achieved through (A) Rosa's fragile mental state concerning Beatrice and a disguise (though simple) would possibly throw her off, and (B) Kyrie probably only saw her for a second and did not pay too special attention. It's a usual "disguise" trick in mysteries...it's forbidden for them to be employed on a larger scale, like for example if somebody disguised as Beatrice was constantly with them.

Yeah, Kyrie saw her only very briefly. If someone is in a disguise, what are you going to think if they have some particularly distinct feature - like say, blonde hair - and you only got a quick look at them? No doubt Kyrie would've figured it out in time, but she didn't have that.

And as for Rosa, as you said there's the trauma explanation, but there's also the accomplice explanation. Beatrice meets Rosa, Rosa acts as the accomplice thereafter. Coincidence? Probably not. So it wouldn't matter if Rosa actually recognized Beatrice at some point after they met, because if she's in cahoots with Beatrice she's going to pretend like she doesn't know who she is regardless.

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

To make it harder for Battler to dismiss her as not existing? I actually don't think that either Rosa or Kyrie saw anyone they didn't recognize; I think they just lied and said they did.

I still would like to know why Maria had to have the key at all. That's what I was asking about.

Also it just dawned on me that you seem to be suggesting that the adults decided to have a Halloween party in the chapel by themselves in the middle of the night. Can you expound on that?

Yeah, that part didn't become plausible until Battler insisted to Ange in EP8 that it wasn't unusual for the family to celebrate Halloween. It's possible that Beatrice was supposed to be the 'Santa' for the party, and everyone was playing along with her presence, whether or not they identified her as Shannon in costume (though that part seems unlikely.) Since Maria was Beatrice's apprentice and friend, Beatrice knew she would obey her, so she could be seen by Rosa placing the key without Rosa opening the envelope. Maria loves Beatrice, she would certainly be her most helpful and willing accomplice.

I don't understand what you mean when you say "Beatrice was out of the loop in the fantasy scenes" when in the fantasy scenes she was, like, the whole orchestrator of George's trip to the parlor.

I thought I was talking about EP5, not EP4; that was the one where George and Jessica died but not Shannon and Kanon, and piece Beatrice acted surprised that the first twilight even happened.

But on the subject of EP4, George was found with a clean hole and little blood when everyone else had half a head. Battler isn't a doctor and didn't actually touch George's body, so his death at that time isn't certain. I suggest Shannon had disguised George as dead to protect him, but after Battler failed to remember his sin, Beatrice killed everyone remaining, including herself, before declaring in Red that everyone was dead except Battler.

Except that there are lots of reds that require them being alive at points during the games, like Kanon being the 9th victim in EP4 for example.

I realized that after sobering up;] At the very least they would have to be present when their locations were declared, and would have to have died where Beatrice declared they died.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

But on the subject of EP4, George was found with a clean hole and little blood when everyone else had half a head. Battler isn't a doctor and didn't actually touch George's body, so his death at that time isn't certain. I suggest Shannon had disguised George as dead to protect him, but after Battler failed to remember his sin, Beatrice killed everyone remaining, including herself, before declaring in Red that everyone was dead except Battler.

Wasn't George lying face up in the rain with his eyes open, though? I don't think you can fake that. Your blink reflex would give you away instantly.

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Wasn't George lying face up in the rain with his eyes open, though? I don't think you can fake that. Your blink reflex would give you away instantly.

The graphic shows him on his side, with glasses on, and the description doesn't contradict that, but it does say the rain was spraying into his eyes. The glasses would've shielded him from some of that, and he only has to keep his eyes open for the time Battler is looking at him. It doesn't seem as plausible that George would distrust Battler so much as to show that determination, to continue faking death, unless George knew Kyrie to be a culprit.

It's also possible that George and Jessica were forced to fight -- my suspicion is that the twilights of this episode were a complete free-for-all rather than single-culprit -- and all Shannon/Kanon did was watch when Jessica killed him.

EDIT: On another topic, does 'suspicious' have the same double connotation in Japanese as in English? When Nanjo in ep2 2nd twilight says, 'The most suspicious are usually the guilty,' it implies 'the most suspected', but might he be dropping a hint if he meant 'full of suspicion'. No one appeared more suspicious of everyone and anyone than Rosa.

[magnum12]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

But on the subject of EP4, George was found with a clean hole and little blood when everyone else had half a head. Battler isn't a doctor and didn't actually touch George's body, so his death at that time isn't certain. I suggest Shannon had disguised George as dead to protect him, but after Battler failed to remember his sin, Beatrice killed everyone remaining, including herself, before declaring in Red that everyone was dead except Battler.

Actually, there may be a less convoluted explanation for that.

The simpliest explanation for the difference in the size of the holes is the range at which the gun was fired. In the case of George, this shot was most likely fired at medium to long range. George's expression is further evidence that this was an ambush kill from a long distance.

For the sake of argument, I call "bull" on the notion that it would be impossible to overpower Krauss even with his size. we're ignoring something quite interesting and not commonly known that definiately relates to the EP3 scenario, the scientific effects of martial arts training on the human body.

Much of the human body's strength potential is "locked" by mental barriers. This is intended to prevent self-destructive uses that would destroy tendons and the like.

Take X/Y. X represents "at will strength" aka strength that can be used consciously even with the "mental locks" activated. Y represents maximum strength potential.

Traditional strength training increases both X and Y because it works directly on the body's muscle strength.

Martial arts training on the other hand, acts by breaking some, but not all of the body's "mental locks". Enough to still be safe to use without wrecking self harm. In short, the primary effect is on X. This leads us to this:

Eva and George have the capability kill Kraus in EP3 without the use of sedatives.

I do admit there is a hole in this theory, namely that we are never told the fighting style of Eva and George.

It is reasonable to assume that George's martial arts style is the same or similar to his mother, since she was the one who taught him how to fight.

With the right style, for example one with extensive usage of leverage, grapples, and holds, the above blue is plausible.

[Renall]

Battler's investigation in ep4 suggests a large-caliber weapon was used, akin to a "magnum" round or a shotgun. Range will not make the bullet hole of a large-caliber weapon that much smaller, although it may prevent destruction of the face like the other victims seemed to have. The way Battler describes it, the wound doesn't appear to be all that large; it's at least small enough to overlook at first glance until he examines George closely.

Now, Battler's investigation could have been mistaken. He didn't ever find the gun, after all. But it is a bit odd that George has a relatively small wound in comparison to what appears to have been used on anyone else. But the simplest explanation for that would be two guns, really. George faking it seems incredibly difficult given how he's described.

[magnum12]

There's an even simplier explanation to EP4. Don't get me wrong, your reasoning makes sense to me, I'm just adding to it.

The winchiester 45 (IIRC the guns in umineko) are compatible with both .45 rifle rounds and 410 shells (essentially low grade shotgun ammunition.

Secondary fire is central to the solution of EP 4.

When I refer to the concept of secondary fire, I refer to the culprit switching between the primary ammo (the rifle ammo) and the secondary fire (the 410 shells).

Therefore, George's death was done with the "rifle mode" at a relatively long range. The 1st twilight was done with the 410 shells.

Come to think of it, the naming of the Chiester Sisters may have actually been foreshadowing the solution to EP4. Another thing of note is that the way the guns are drawn is actually much closer to the real thing than one would think. They look more like the carbine model than the traditional model.

[jjblue1]

I've been wondering if it's possible that, at the start of the game, Yasu make sure everyone minus Battler will be her accomplice hiring them separately, then, according to how things go kills off the unncessary accomplices.

I'll explain myself better. We know that in her planning Yasu takes into consideration that things might not go as she originally planned, for example in EP 1 Natsuhi had a scorpion charm on her door, in EP 2 Jessica might not have left the group and so on.

Beatrice herself said that:

"......I formed my plan with great care and constructed several alternatives. I envisioned all of the actions you might take from tonight and through tomorrow...and prepared a mystery to deal with each of those. .........I'm afraid I cannot reveal those at this point, but it really was a tightly-knit set of pleasant closed room murders."

The best way to do so would be to have everyone as accomplice right from the beginning.

We know she hired Kumasawa and Gohda telling them it was a joke and offering them money (Our confession).

About the adults she could have hired all of them but not at the same time but hiring each couple separately.
We know from EP 8 manga version she tattled things out to them about Kinzo and Krauss but it's possible she contacted them separately. In Ep 5 we see Hideyoshi suggested Kinzo had already passed away... while Rudolf knows about his financial problems.

Let's assume it was Yasu who contacted Hideyoshi giving him that info without revealing her identity and promising him money in exchange for his cooperation as long as he keeps the fact she is the one who told this to him for himself and Eva, although he's free to share the info with the other siblings.
Then she does the same with Rudolf.
Rosa might have been blackmailed by mentioning Beatrice's death.
We know she might have decided to blackmail Krauss and Natsuhi together (Our confession) or separately (Ep 5).

Anyway we've all the siblings willing to help Yasu without knowing they're all in. Then she might decide to reveal to them all the truth or just to some. Ep 4 & 2 might have them all knowing she's willing to give them the gold if they'll do something for her while Ep 1, 3 & 5 might have the siblings still bribed but unaware they're all under her orders.

In this way if she's forced to change the plan and needs to off an accomplice she'll have another ready.

Maria is likely in as she believes/want to believe in Beatrice and the golden land. Though maybe deep down she thinks it's just a game and Beato is using tricks to make them look dead... which might explain Ep 3. In it Yasu thought to kill only Beatrice and that Maria will side with her (Our confession tells us dividing the two who're close doesn't necessarily mean to kill them) but something clicks in Maria as she sees her mother is dead and she refuses to play their witch game any longer forcing Beato to kill her as well (I've the feeling that Maria isn't that dumb/pure, she just wants to believe so much she deceive herself so well she believes in her own deception).

Jessica and George can be in if they're tricked into believing it's a game, which likely would explain Jessica's phone call in Ep 4 or them playing dead in Ep 5.

Funny enough the harder to get involved are Nanjo and Genji.

Nanjo is a doctor. While all the others can believe that it's all a game and the dead ones are merely playing dead very well thanks to a good make up Nanjo should realize people is dead for real and they're not fake corpses or people pretending to be dead which should either scare him into understanding it's not just a game or made him say something along the line of 'we've to stop the game because this guy died for real'.

A good option can be that Yasu bought him by promising him money to save his grandaughter. Theoretically she could have also blackmailed him using the fact he helped Beatrice Castiglioni, or how he was an accomplice in the Kuwadorian Beatrice matter or how he hid Kinzo's death. Even both might work: do what I say and I help you, don't and I'll ruin you. Still he would have a great advantage compared to the siblings as he would know Yasu is behind this.

The last is Genji. He doesn't seem the type that would sell himself for money. He should have affection for Kinzo's children and grandchildren. He tried to save Yasu from having the same destiny as her mother sort of defying Kinzo to protect Yasu and now... he's willing to let her kill everyone? Did he believe it was all a game? Somehow the more the game progresses the harder it seems to do it and Genji lived quite a bit in Ep 1 & 3. But maybe yes, he decided he wanted to believe Yasu it was all a game.

Also, about Beatrice Castiglioni.
The fantasy narrative in Ep 3 insists that Beatrice felt flattered by Kinzo's feelings for her but never loved him and so he trapped her using his power and in hope to be released killed herself. This seems to suggest the first Beatrice never loved Kinzo but ended up trapped by him.

Maybe when Kinzo planned to have the Japanese and the Italians go against each other it's possible Beatrice had been sort of an accomplice (the narrative said she garanted him the gold) as she was worried her countrymen would take for themselves the gold same as Kinzo's countrymen wanted to do so she might have turned to him for help maybe thinking he'll do something to stop them.

I'm not sure she planned to have things get that far and for herself to become Kinzo's hidden lover as the whole situation is way more beneficial for Kinzo than for her, exhiled in a foreign land with people talking a foreign language, tied to a man who's already married and that doesn't plan to ask divorce to marry her, not even later on when she'll be pregnant and that's using the gold for his own purposes.

Also I wonder if Kinzo really planned to die physically. He said he wanted to cut his strings and that there was a gap between him as Ushimorimya head and his mind. Can it be he wanted to kill just Kinzo the Ushiromiya head and not himself.

Maybe he planned to be sent to the frontlines and escape or let others think he was dead but his plan didn't work as he ended up on Rokkenjima. Which would explain much more easily why he would want the Italian gold so to get back in control of his own life.

[Kealym]

I still think you could take out Kratsuhi in EP3 by sheer sleeplessness. None of the adults slept at all over the course of EP3. It's not so much that they were killed at all, but that they were killed without a ruckus.

Also, while I kind of dislike it, Our Confessions openly says that Yasu also has a pistol at their disposal, though the only suggestions of this in the gameboards, proper, are the fact that there are consistently two type of "probably shot" wounds. I would personally argue that having two seperate guns is kind of a hassle, but carrying multiple types of ammo for the same gun feels ... I'unno, even sillier. The pistol has the benefit of being much easier to conceal, probably holds more rounds, and as implied by EP7, at least for an amateur, it's semi-automatic action would be simpler to handle than the WInchester's lever action loading.

About Nanjo, well, he's probably going into it thinking it's a prank of some sort, but similar to Kratsuhi in OC, is just threatened with the actual violence of the bomb once the storm has started. There is no way he's being fooled when people are really dead, and he's still lying about it, after all.

[magnum12]

Originally Posted by Kealym

I would personally argue that having two seperate guns is kind of a hassle, but carrying multiple types of ammo for the same gun feels ... I'unno, even sillier. The pistol has the benefit of being much easier to conceal, probably holds more rounds, and as implied by EP7, at least for an amateur, it's semi-automatic action would be simpler to handle than the WInchester's lever action loading.

I disagree. Having multiple types of ammo around is more common that one would think. It usually happens with rifles with the user carrying FMJ (full metal jacket) and AP (armor piercing) rounds.

I do acknowledge the existance of a pistol though. Its just that I don't think its usage in EP4 2nd twilight is very likely given the situation. I also think the pistol was most likely some form of revolver rather than something like a glock. However, EP4 seems to be an outlier case.

Usage of a "shotgun" only truly comes into play in EP4 and maybe once in EP2 for the 1st twilight. A shotgun being involved is probably the simpliest way to explain the wounds (the manga depicts them in such a way that it seems the most likely, but there was probably some form of sedative involvement.

I should point out that EP4 brings up a major inconsistency with the Yasu culprit theory when you compare Shannon's death in EP4 vs EP2. Both are supposedly a suicide involving a point blank range pistol shot. EP4 shows what's to be expected, an exit wound in the back of her head. Why then in EP2 does the same gun at the same range targeting the same point generate a vastly different wound profile (i.e. no signs of an exit wound in the back of Shannon's head)? Very jarring when one considers this:

The foresenics definition of "point blank range" is any shot fired at less than 3 feet away. This is due to any difference in the wound profile being neglible at best within any point within that range.

[Dormin]

First of all we should consider if Ryu has any kind of knowledge in guns. If OC said that Yasu also has a pistol, okay, but I can easily see different kind of wounds explained by Ryu simply not thinking about subject at all. Maybe the size of the exit wound etc etc never played important factor in the story, I myself haven't even considered this possibility, as I believed that any "hole" in a body can be written of as a gunshot.

But there are also other explanation for the variable sizes of the gunholes, like for example passage of the bullet inside the corpse. If the bullet contacts any major bone inside the body, the bullet usually shatters and results in much larger exit wound. If the shot is "clean" the gunshot wound can be relatively small.

We should also remember that range affects the gunshot wound, as shockwave from the muzzle and impacting bullet can also damage tissue and result in larger wound, but I'm pretty sure these factors are not considered as distance between targets is usually relatively small and stopping force is probably considered same in every shot.

I should point out that EP4 brings up a major inconsistency with the Yasu culprit theory when you compare Shannon's death in EP4 vs EP2. Both are supposedly a suicide involving a point blank range pistol shot. EP4 shows what's to be expected, an exit wound in the back of her head. Why then in EP2 does the same gun at the same range targeting the same point generate a vastly different wound profile (i.e. no signs of an exit wound in the back of Shannon's head)?

M-maybe the iconic shannonhat slumped over the wound?

About Nanjo, well, he's probably going into it thinking it's a bomb, but similar to Kratsuhi in OC, is just threatened with the actual violence of the bomb once the storm has started. There is no way he's being fooled when people are really dead, and he's still lying about it, after all.

Has anyone thought that maybe Nanjo just sucks at being a doctor? Who he did ever save?