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Old 2015-06-03, 22:04   Link #1161
Birdway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I never said it was told completely from Kumiko's perspective. Perhaps a better way for me to put it is that it's about 'what's important for Kumiko' at this point in time.

Which connects me to this:


That depends on what you think the show is about. If it's just about getting to the competition, then sure, it'll be like most of the sports anime out there.

But if it's about Kumiko and the important things that make her who she is at this point in her life, then how is it not important? Wherever Kumiko's relationships with Reina and Shuuichi end up at the end of the season, they will have changed from how they were at the start. And both are important to the story that the show is telling for the effect that they have on Kumiko herself.



But he is being developed as his own character. You just don't seem interested in engaging with the scenes and details that do this.

-------
In any case, I've said all I want to say on this topic.
I agree with you there.
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Old 2015-06-04, 01:30   Link #1162
Kaoru Chujo
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What a great thread. Interesting reactions and ideas, and mainly mutual respect, except from a couple of people. Really interesting comments (not all of which I agree with) from Haak, Kazu-kun, Triple_R, karice67, BleedingUranium, Romanticide, rulfo, HandofFate, SeijiSensei, Salva, Nicaea, BBOvenGuy, Hidetoshi Nakata, novalysis, Takigan, GMT and others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I would say Kumiko is definitely romantically interested in Shu: She just doesn't realise it yet....
That's what this ep is trying to hit us over the head with (repeating the previous statement of the same thing). Like you, this might not be my preferred outcome here, but it appears to be what they are trying to signal. The feelings portrayed don't actually support that, so far, but social convention and normal expectation do. And so does the fact that KyoAni doesn't swing that way, lol. The statement from someone a few pages ago that yuri is the normal cliche when there is a female lead doesn't seem true to me. Most female leads are in shoujo heterosexual romance.

Shuuichi is blind and self-centred (the way he interpreted Kumiko's glance when she left the room in the previous episode). He is still being portrayed as a bit of a kid, more than Kumiko is (the thing he did last year, calling her ugly and saying not to talk to him, is a standard little-boy trope). But he's a nice enough guy, and easy to identify with. He treated Hazuki well, in the circumstances. And I love the innocent new-found enthusiasm for band he showed in the previous episode.

But if yuri were possible in a KyoAni show, the relationship with Reina would be far more likely to develop. Kumiko being willing to die on that hillside. Physical contact. (And in this ep Kumiko returns the same physical touching of Reina's face). The use of first names (a huge deal in Japanese culture). Kumiko's first-name use with Shuuichi is the first-name use of children. With Reina, it is a new relationship blooming. But it is likely not to be, except on pixiv and sankaku.

A few impressions:
-- Toyota Moe gave us great disappointed energy as Midori when Hazuki actually accepted the gift of Tubacabra.
-- Hazuki really is unhappy. You don't eat a good corn-dog like that so fast unless you've got something on your mind. But she shouldn't let it lead her to perversely push Kumiko toward Shuuichi.
-- Kumiko is definitely much more aware of Shuuichi, and although she really feels she doesn't see him in that way, the very idea gets her wondering. She jumped when she heard him announced as in the group, so she's definitely aware.
-- Asuka was great, finding an excuse to get Midori out of the room. Is her upsetness at the distractions because she wishes she herself had a romance? Her hugging her euphonium in an earlier episode made me think so. I don't like her saying "Sapphire Kawashima" as if Midori were a foreigner, but lots of good people can be hard to deal with.
-- I loved Haruka's line about wanting Kaori not to force her to find potatoes. Well voiced by Hayami Saori, with an achingly warm edge.
-- I liked how Kumiko's mother just accepted her taking a piece of toast as her only breakfast, rather than giving us the performance we usually get, with the mother either pleading with or chiding the child to eat more. Real life.
-- the scene between Kumiko and Reina was outstanding, even though so short. Reina's intensity -- and physical contact -- both calmed and energized Kumiko. Kumiko can now actually give Reina back the physical contact she gets: not a kiss, but awfully similar, even to the flesh sounds. "Baiting" could be the word, depending on how things work out. But I don't mind being baited a bit, lol.
-- Taki-sensei is tough but really grand, and is setting these kids up to be proud of their work and to succeed. But was Natsuki really so bad that she had to be dropped, leaving only two euphoniums?
-- the rhythms of how the audition sequence played out were great, creating and sustaining that light but intense tension.
-- I don't think there has really been much ambiguity in Kumiko's denials. It is more like the writers and the other girls are trying to force her that way. "She must feel that way, since he is her old friend, so we will imagine it to be true and thereby make it true." She isn't even thinking of romance, but time together and hormones are powerful things.... The show could continue to be excellent even if nothing truly romantic develops in any direction.
-- when Reina on the hill last week talked about Kumiko worrying about Shuuichi, and Kumiko denied it, the expression on Reina's face seemed to me to be more a pleased smile than an ironic one. At least there was some ambiguity there.
-- Kumiko probably doesn't identify her relationship with anyone as romantic, but being willing to die at that moment on the hillside with Reina was a very, very powerful love/death type of feeling.
-- I sense no romantic feeling from Reina to Taki-sensei. Admiration and trust, however, definitely.
-- I think that just about all characters are getting some development, including Kumiko and Shuuichi, as well as Reina, Asuka, Midori, Natsuki, Kaori, et al. I find myself finding out more about them, feeling them better, and seeing them shift a bit almost every week.

BleedingUranium, if you like this show, do look at Hyouka. But don't be put off by the first few episodes, which seemed to me very different from and far less interesting than the way the show developed later.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2015-06-04 at 13:33.
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Old 2015-06-04, 02:24   Link #1163
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While I think the discussion is interesting, I had to hide some previous posts in this thread for further moderator review because the discussion is veering too far in the direction of spoilers. It's very important that novel readers not post interpretations of current events based on their knowledge of the future story content in this thread. I realize that it's like "oh, if anime-only viewers knew what I know, they'd see where all this is leading" and so on, but that's just not an okay conversation for this thread. It violates our policy on spoilers. If anime readers want to have that conversation and understand where the story is heading in relation to the novels, I would direct them to the novel thread. But in this thread, only novel comparisons for things shown may be posted, and even then only behind clearly-labelled spoiler tags. Any form of novel comparison, even to things shown, must never be posted in the open.

Please respect the spoiler policy to ensure that conversation remains centered on what the anime has shown, and not the things you would know by now if only you read the books. Thanks.
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Old 2015-06-04, 04:01   Link #1164
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Kinda nice that ANN is rating Hibiki with B+s to As straight too...
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Old 2015-06-04, 08:56   Link #1165
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When I was looking for some scenes on early episodes I saw the scene where the new members of the club are choosing their instruments. There Reina says that besides being in the band club before, she also takes classes. Which made me think that if she already knew Taki, then maybe he is the one she takes lessons from?
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Old 2015-06-04, 09:14   Link #1166
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Shu is fine for a supporting cast character. In that role, I have no issue with him. He's reasonably likeable, believable, and consistent. He's a bit pushy and insistent, maybe, but Kumiko is appealing enough that I can understand him not giving up on her easily. Shu doesn't have a lot of distinctive traits, and there's probably not a whole lot that can be definitively said about him, but that's fine for a supporting cast character. Taki, Shu, and Goto adds some testosterone to a cast that definitely benefits from it, and each of the three brings something a little bit different in this regard.

But given that Hibike spends about half of its time on character relationship dynamics, I have to agree with Kazu-kun. I don't think that Shu has been developed well enough for the role of "main character's boyfriend/girlfriend", in a show like this one (it might be different if this was more of a pure sports anime where romances are a side-attraction at most).

Now if Hibike gets a second season, or a movie sequel, then that certainly can change. But for this season alone, I'm not really feeling it. And I would argue that with romance it's not enough to just make the audience intellectually aware of it. There should also be some real emotional depth and appeal to it.

All of which is to say that I don't think it would be creatively wise of KyoAni to end this season on a Shu/Kumiko confirmation. It might happen anyway, but it would likely leave the season as a whole feeling pretty uneven and lacking in consistent direction to me. Maybe they can have Kumiko clearly get over her grudge of sorts with Shu, but stop short of a full romance. That is something I would probably support, given that Shu's role in the narrative has received enough focus that, yes, it should get some sort of resolution at least.


Hibike is a very good anime show, my favorite thus far of the Spring 2015 season, but I hope it doesn't fall into the trap of trying to be too many things to too many different people.
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Old 2015-06-04, 09:34   Link #1167
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@Kaoro Chujo, this was the only time that I like Saori's voice as Haruka. I really love her voice but I feel she's a bit miscast. I don't know.
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Old 2015-06-04, 10:26   Link #1168
blakstealth
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ANN posted this little article about the show and the article author's, who was also in his high school band, impressions and thoughts. It's a pretty short, insightful and interesting read.

Spoiler:
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Old 2015-06-04, 10:58   Link #1169
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Shu is fine for a supporting cast character. In that role, I have no issue with him. He's reasonably likeable, believable, and consistent. He's a bit pushy and insistent, maybe, but Kumiko is appealing enough that I can understand him not giving up on her easily. Shu doesn't have a lot of distinctive traits, and there's probably not a whole lot that can be definitively said about him, but that's fine for a supporting cast character. Taki, Shu, and Goto adds some testosterone to a cast that definitely benefits from it, and each of the three brings something a little bit different in this regard.

But given that Hibike spends about half of its time on character relationship dynamics, I have to agree with Kazu-kun. I don't think that Shu has been developed well enough for the role of "main character's boyfriend/girlfriend", in a show like this one (it might be different if this was more of a pure sports anime where romances are a side-attraction at most).

Now if Hibike gets a second season, or a movie sequel, then that certainly can change. But for this season alone, I'm not really feeling it. And I would argue that with romance it's not enough to just make the audience intellectually aware of it. There should also be some real emotional depth and appeal to it.

All of which is to say that I don't think it would be creatively wise of KyoAni to end this season on a Shu/Kumiko confirmation. It might happen anyway, but it would likely leave the season as a whole feeling pretty uneven and lacking in consistent direction to me. Maybe they can have Kumiko clearly get over her grudge of sorts with Shu, but stop short of a full romance. That is something I would probably support, given that Shu's role in the narrative has received enough focus that, yes, it should get some sort of resolution at least.
It's no surprise to me that some people consider Shu bland in comparison to Reina. Reina has had tons more development and insight into her character than Shu and she's already had at least four big impact character moments with Kumiko (whilst Shu hasn't had a single one - even his confession was underwhelming in comparison). In fact, the show even began on a big moment between Kumiko and Reina. Now what does that tell you? It tells you that regardless of how they want to play it, the relationship between Kumiko and Reina is going to be one of the most fundamental themes of this story.

The bit that doesn't make sense is the fact that they gave the Kumiko-Reina relationship blatant romantic subtext. Had they left it platonic, it would've been fine to just have a Kumiko-Shu romance as a smaller side plot, but now it doesn't make any damn sense anymore. Having a romantic relationship that's more integral to the plot, directly compete with a romantic relationship that isn't - it's obvious which one the narrative structure suggests should win. And yet the individual narrative hints suggest the opposite. Mixed messages much? It's like if Hanasaku Iroha explored a genuine romantic link between Ohana and Minko: No way in hell would Ohana end up with Ko.

(But for the record, I still really like this show).
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Old 2015-06-04, 11:46   Link #1170
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
While I think the discussion is interesting, I had to hide some previous posts in this thread for further moderator review because the discussion is veering too far in the direction of spoilers. It's very important that novel readers not post interpretations of current events based on their knowledge of the future story content in this thread.
Thank you. It has been a problem. I understand how people feel, having done the same thing in the past myself. But please, no. I just keep comforting myself that maybe the anime doesn't have to follow the novel plot exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by made_season
...this was the only time that I like Saori's voice as Haruka. I really love her voice but I feel she's a bit miscast. I don't know.
I get what you're saying. I don't have a clear enough idea of who Haruka is to say she's miscast, but I have felt that the role hasn't given Hayamin a chance to show the best things about her voice...until now.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2015-06-04 at 13:28.
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Old 2015-06-04, 11:54   Link #1171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blakstealth View Post
ANN posted this little article about the show and the article author's, who was also in his high school band, impressions and thoughts. It's a pretty short, insightful and interesting read.

Spoiler:
An interesting article! Thanks for drawing attention to it.

Ep 09

Regarding the ep...well, it mainly further cemeted my enjoyment of Kumiko's character, and finally the flashbacks to Middle School began to shed a little more specific light on a teeny part of her. My guess is that she beat out someone older than her in something and the seniorwas NOT pleased about it, possibly even asduming Kumiko did it to spite her somehow.

Next ep...I wonder if yellow bow wearing trumpet player and Reina are finalky going to publicly, visible clash?
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Old 2015-06-04, 13:24   Link #1172
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Something on a completely different topic that I wanted to point out. Since we learn in Episode 9 that Taki-sensei has a reputation, I thought this was a good time to bring it up.

I couldn't help noticing that he conducts with his hands instead of using a baton. That technique is more typical of choral conductors, not instrumental conductors. When conducting an instrumental ensemble, the players are more likely to be looking at their music and only looking at the conductor peripherally, so you use a baton to give them a visible reference point for keeping time. In a choir, on the other hand, the singers are more likely to have memorized the piece, or at the very least only need to look at the music occasionally for reference. The conductor therefore uses his or her hands to communicate things like phrasing and expression.

My own choir director only uses a baton for events like Christmas and Easter, where we've got an instrumental ensemble playing with us. The rest of the time he uses his hands, and so does his assistant and any guest conductors we have.

This concludes today's edition of Anime Cultural Enhancement.
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Old 2015-06-04, 13:35   Link #1173
blakstealth
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Originally Posted by Flower View Post

Next ep...I wonder if yellow bow wearing trumpet player and Reina are finalky going to publicly, visible clash?
Are you suggesting a full-on cat fight? Reina would probably eat her AND her bow for breakfast.
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Old 2015-06-04, 13:44   Link #1174
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Are you suggesting a full-on cat fight? Reina would probably eat her AND her bow for breakfast.
I'd love to see that.
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Old 2015-06-04, 13:44   Link #1175
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Are you suggesting a full-on cat fight? Reina would probably eat her AND her bow for breakfast.
Do you really think the bow girl is gonna face her alone and not with her groupies?
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Old 2015-06-04, 14:29   Link #1176
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I honestly have no fucking idea where Hazuki got that Kumiko is interested in Shuuichi. What? How the fuck did you reach that conclusion?! It's like the anime is trying to sell us that Shuuichi and Kumiko is a thing, while completely ignoring the reality of the characters. Does the creator not know her own characters?
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Old 2015-06-04, 14:44   Link #1177
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I think it's more a problem if wanting the cake and eat it too. KyoAni is a pretty conservative studio, so they probably wanted a Shuichi x Kumiko ending all along. But they also want to sell BDs, and a character like Shuichi doesn't sell. So I guess they hid the guy as much as possible while spicing Kumiko's interactions with Reina with romantic subtext. It's probably not meant to be taken seriously but it helps sell BDs because it's cute and sexy.

Unfortunately, the show is starting to feel a bit disjointed as a side effect of this scheme. Because of lack of development, now it kinda feels like the plot is forcing Kumiko to have feelings for Shuichi.
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Old 2015-06-04, 14:58   Link #1178
Klashikari
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^ you are thinking too deeply about that. The original story had also some subtext between Kumiko and Reina as far as I checked.
Regardless what they are planning for the rest of the plot, I really doubt they deliberately added the "bait" considering the original story had that to begin with.

Frankly, I don't see where there is a definite evidence Kumiko had the hots for Reina. Likewise, it isn't like Kumiko is definitely (not) in love with Shuichi. She never considered that matter to begin with, so it isn't like the answer is clear cut.
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Old 2015-06-04, 15:02   Link #1179
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Regardless what they are planning for the rest of the plot, I really doubt they deliberately added the "bait"
I disagree. It looks like obvious bait to me.
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Old 2015-06-04, 15:07   Link #1180
Klashikari
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I merely confirmed that plot part wasn't KyoAni fabrication and I didn't add any piece of information from the original material that couldn't be learned from the anime adaptation.

Also, the fact it looks like a bait to you is irrelevant to the point I was making. What I mentioned is that they didn't add anything for that part, meaning your conclusion they did that for sake of sales is a bit ludicrous.

If you want to extend this argument, I suggest you to check recent yuri shows sales, especially hardcore ones like Sakura trick. Yuri isn't a main driving sale point, and it is certainly not something that a studio would deliberately add to bolster sales whatsoever.
That point aside, going back to euphonium: If KyoAni really wanted to do something like that, they would have changed the script in order to make the romance even more prevalent with Shuichi.
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