Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

And splitting the A's into 2 movies just means more money. :/ Though I have a feeling the same basic errors would pop up

LOL Two Fate-centric movies filled with Nanofate with the Wolks playing a small part in the background xD?

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

LOL Two Fate-centric movies filled with Nanofate with the Wolks playing a small part in the background xD?

Oh quiet you. Pretty sure the next movie could be a Wolkie sex tape, and you'd still complain. :3

But yes, that's entirely possible too, for better or for worse.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Oh quiet you. Pretty sure the next movie could be a Wolkie sex tape, and you'd still complain. :3

You're actually implying there could be a piece of fanservice-oriented Nanoha material that doesn't have Fate in a prominent role?

Blasphemy oOo!

xD

[Archon_Wing]

And this is why we can't have good things.

[Nanya01]

It would obviously be Fate+Signum if that was the case with Hayate and Nanoha playing with Vita in the background.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

The more I read this discussion, the more I'm not sure we as a group really know what we wanted in a movie.

To some of you, the only way the movie would be great if it was basically A's re-done as a movie - which would make it roughly 6 hours long, give or take, which would make it even longer then a single Lord of the Rings movie. I don't think many people could sit in a theater for 6 hours

4 hours. Give or take a few minutes. No cinema would even consider that. They'd be airing one less movie for each time they'd show this one.

Originally Posted by krisslanza

Alternatively, it would mean splitting the movie in half and having two three-hour length movies, but that's still pretty crazy (I can't think of any actual theatrical released movies that were three hours in length)

All of the Lord of the Rings movies. Third even clocked 201 minutes, almost 3 and a half hours. But that's because this was Lord of the Rings, which... is not comparable to Nanoha, to say the least.

Originally Posted by krisslanza

But hey, Tsuzuki at least isn't whoever thought to make that Tales of Phantasia OVA. Sure, let's just turn a 40+ hour game into like, an hour long OVA episode.

Yeah, it drops you in with barely an explanation, keeps going with even less and doesn't even bother with a decent conclusion.

If we're talking about "made purely for fanservice" then the Phantasia leaves the A's movie in the dust. For the A's movie, someone who hasn't watched the series will be able to follow the movie with no trouble whatsoever. If you haven't played Phantasia though? Good luck making sense of that OVA.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Then let me boil it down to a preference for which characters get developed. On one side, you have a preference for 1 or 2 characters. On the other, you have a preference for more, especially ones that have a bigger connection to the plot.

Let me state another difference. Nanoha is my favorite character, but I recognize that she didn't need much development here. Maybe just her reaction and decision to tell her friends and family about her magic. It could have made a nice contribution to her character if she grappled with the decision, like Fate grappled with her mommy issues. But I at least recognize it wasn't needed in the context of this movie.

Strictly speaking, more Chrono and Lindy focus isn't needed either. I made this clear in a previous reply I made to you that you chose to ignore.

Chrono and Lindy's connection to the Book of Darkness was touched upon to a significant degree in the movie. It was not ignored. There were some scenes in the movie indicating how much this meant to both of them. We even had a flashback scene focusing on Chrono's dad, how he died, and how Lindy and Chrono reacted to his death. We know that Chrono and Lindy visited the grave of Chrono's dad following the conflict of this anime. It is clear that a measure of closure was gained for both characters here.

This isn't bad for supporting cast characters. And Chrono and Lindy are no more tied into the main plot than Nanoha and Fate are.


You are not being fair in this discussion, Kaijo. Your side of the argument would likely make the movie less enjoyable for Fate fans and NanoFate fans, and all for the sake of greater unneeded emphasis on supporting cast characters.

I also don't see any fairness in basically saying that people who want to see some heartwarming NanoFate and Fate scenes are "fanatics", yet making it seem that those who are disproportionately focused on supporting cast characters are apparently perfectly normal.


In short, I strongly disagree with you and your priorities in this thread. And I do not think you have truly given the other side of the argument real consideration.

[Nanya01]

In short, I strongly disagree with you and your priorities in this thread. And I do not think you have truly given the other side of the argument real consideration.

The same can be said to you, Triple_R. No matter how much myself, Keroko, Kaijo, RD and even Aki point out to you that certain things just aren't right, you, and I don't mean to insult you, but...

You seem to be going "lalalala, can't hear you" when we bring this up and call us being unfair.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And no, it would be easy to keep this movie to 2.5 hours and still have the necessary character and plot development. And still make about the same amount of money.

Not with the scenes you want to cut. There are series fanatics, and there are character fanatic. The latter will not be amused. With all the battle time they removed from Fate, if they removed the dream scene too...I can't see how any Fate fan would be even remotely content. As they would have effectively removed her two most shining moments. It's got to be one or the other.

Originally Posted by bhl88

Arisa hugging Fate and bidding her good bye as she goes to her friends.
Nanoha's about to Starlight Breaker Natchwal
Hayate crying that Reinforce shouldn't leave her.
Nanoha's Drive Ignition Excellion Mode Strike Flame
Fate's transformation scene XD (with the upgrade)

Well yes, though I mean't the names of the scenes. :3

1.) Garden of Time
2.) Final battle. The fight against natchwal
3.) Reinforces departure (her death)
4.) Nanoha vs. Reinforce
5.) Transformation scenes

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Strictly speaking, more Chrono and Lindy focus isn't needed either. I made this clear in a previous reply I made to you that you chose to ignore.

If you did, then I didn't see it; my apologies. But I've made a few post responses to you that you didn't reply to. I just figured you didn't have time.

Chrono and Lindy's connection to the Book of Darkness was touched upon to a significant degree in the movie. It was not ignored. There were some scenes in the movie indicating how much this meant to both of them. We even had a flashback scene focusing on Chrono's dad, how he died, and how Lindy and Chrono reacted to his death. We know that Chrono and Lindy visited the grave of Chrono's dad following the conflict of this anime. It is clear that a measure of closure was gained for both characters here.

This isn't bad for supporting cast characters. And Chrono and Lindy are no more tied into the main plot than Nanoha and Fate are.

Oh yes, their connection was brought up... but as characters, they never had any real cathartic moment or confrontation with any inner demons or feelings regarding the book. Their story arc didn't really have any real depth, nor real conclusion. To repeat:

"Oh, hey, here's that thing that killed my husband. Interesting."

"So this is what killed my dad? Why should I care again?"

Are you honestly telling me that you don't care that two people, who lost a loved one to the antagonist of the series, have ZERO emotional moments confronting said antagonist (and confronting their feelings at the same time)? That a "good" movie totally ignores the feelings about someone confronting the murderer that killed a loved one?

You are not being fair in this discussion, Kaijo. Your side of the argument would likely make the movie less enjoyable for Fate fans and NanoFate fans, and all for the sake of greater unneeded emphasis on supporting cast characters.

I suppose you could say I am not being fair. Sorta like not being fair to the person who has been cheating the entire game. Seriously, TR, the only character with their name in the title is Nanoha. Not Fate. Anyone other than Nanoha is a supporting cast member... including Fate. And yet Fate gets more development than the titular main character.

Also consider this: After this story, Chrono and Lindy fade into the background, but Fate stays in the foreground. She has MANY more chances to take the stage and get development. The Harleowns are done after this. Do you really object to letting them have some actual development before they get shuffled off? Are you really okay with a supporting cast member getting more emphasis than the main, after all?

Person A: "Hey, out of my way! I'm more important here, so I get to go on this ride FIRST!"
Person B: "But you get to go on this ride all day! Do you really have to keep cutting in front of people and preventing them from riding at all?"
Person A: "Hey! STOP BEING UNFAIR TO ME! I said I was more important, didn't I?"

If you want me to understand, then understand it from this viewpoint, about how you sound to this thread. Few people would be sympathetic to the above. When even the titular main character gets shafted, you have to acknowledge there is a problem.

I also don't see any fairness in basically saying that people who want to see some heartwarming NanoFate and Fate scenes are "fanatics", yet making it seem that those who are disproportionately focused on supporting cast characters are apparently perfectly normal.

In short, I strongly disagree with you and your priorities in this thread. And I do not think you have truly given the other side of the argument real consideration.

You didn't read all of my post, then, or the rest of my posts where I said I understood. I will repeat this bit, though, that I said in an earlier thread:

"Nanoha is my favorite character, but I recognize that she didn't need much development here. Maybe just her reaction and decision to tell her friends and family about her magic. It could have made a nice contribution to her character if she grappled with the decision, like Fate grappled with her mommy issues. But I at least recognize it wasn't needed in the context of this movie."

When a Fate, or NanoFate person, can make the same sacrifice for the good of the plot, we'll be on even ground again. I'm willing to give up Nanoha development, despite her being my favorite character, if it means we can better characterize the plot and secondary characters. I am willing to give up what is not needed, in order to make sure we fit in what is important to the plot.

Even if you ignore everything else, can you say the same?

Last note: I do understand your argument. You feel that Fate is a main character, and that NanoFate is important. I understand that, and to a degree, I'd even agree with that. However, you also feel that those two things are more important than anything else in the A's movie. You'd sacrifice anything else, if it means you get more Fate and NanoFate. I'm sorry, but I can't agree to that. Let me know if you don't understand why.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

The same can be said to you, Triple_R.

No, it can't.

I have considered your argument. I have considered the amount of NanoFate and Fate focus in this movie. I have considered the amount of Lindy and Chrono focus in the movie.

I think the amount of NanoFate and Fate focus in this movie is perfectly normal for major characters and the main pairing of an anime movie. If anything, in fact, it's minimal. As even Kaijo admits, it's a measly 5 to 10 minutes of NanoFate focus. Any less than that, and I'd feel substantially short-changed as a NanoFate fan.

And why shouldn't I? These are the main protagonists and the main pairing in a 2 and a half hour movie. A measly 10 minutes of focus on their relationship is too much to ask for? Seriously, Nanya?

No matter how much myself, Keroko, Kaijo, RD and even Aki point out to you that certain things just aren't right,

Because I don't agree with you. I do not see this supposedly grievous shortchanging of Chrono and Lindy. I think they did decently well for supporting cast characters.

You seem to be going "lalalala, can't hear you" when we bring this up and call us being unfair.

No, I disagree with you. Disagreeing with someone is not ignoring them. I am obviously not pretending to not hear you.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, it can't.

I have considered your argument. I have considered the amount of NanoFate and Fate focus in this movie. I have considered the amount of Lindy and Chrono focus in the movie.

I think the amount of NanoFate and Fate focus in this movie is perfectly normal for major characters and the main pairing of an anime movie. If anything, in fact, it's minimal. As even Kaijo admits, it's a measly 5 to 10 minutes of NanoFate focus. Any less than that, and I'd feel substantially short-changed as a NanoFate fan.

And why shouldn't I? These are the main protagonists and the main pairing in a 2 and a half hour movie. A measly 10 minutes of focus on their relationship is too much to ask for? Seriously, Nanya?

hmm...

Do you want my honest answer towards how it affects the plot?

Because, if you want it, you won't like it.

Let's be honest here, Triple_R, 5-10 minutes of screen time is still more screen time than Chrono or Lindy got to deal with the Book of Darkness issues they had.

5-10 minutes of screen time was more than almost any (Reinforce v Nanoha) action sequence in the movie.

You would feel short-changed as a NanoFate fan?

Well, guess what?

As a fan of the franchise and characters NOT named Fate, I feel short-changed!

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I suppose you could say I am not being fair. Sorta like not being fair to the person who has been cheating the entire game. Seriously, TR, the only character with their name in the title is Nanoha. Not Fate. Anyone other than Nanoha is a supporting cast member... including Fate. And yet Fate gets more development than the titular main character.

Haruhi was the titular character in the Haruhi movie, and what happened to her exactly? And this was Canon off of the novel to boot. Having your name in the title does not make you the only one deserving of copious amounts of screentime. I certainly don't think Fate is more important than Nanoha, but they are the two main characters of the franchise. They're the only ones that have stuck around all three seasons, and still had a fair share of screen time. There is no reason for that to change in these movies.

Fate gets more development than Nanoha because Fate has more room to develop. What Fate does not get, however, are the key battles of every season. And she's certainly not the one to bring them down. This is how the titular character has always worked in Nanoha. Also, Nanoha is not shafted, she never has been. Her screentime is always on par, if not more than Fate's. How can someone be shafted when they have more screen time than the accused shafter?

If you want me to understand, then understand it from this viewpoint, about how you sound to this thread. Few people would be sympathetic to the above. When even the titular main character gets shafted, you have to acknowledge there is a problem.

This thread isn't fair to use as an example. You could go to any other Nanoha discussion on the internet, and you wouldn't find these views. Either you're all band wagonning to the same cause, or it's become such a bout of negativity, that everyone with the same opinion flocks here.

When a Fate, or NanoFate person, can make the same sacrifice for the good of the plot, we'll be on even ground again. I'm willing to give up Nanoha development, despite her being my favorite character, if it means we can better characterize the plot and secondary characters. I am willing to give up what is not needed, in order to make sure we fit in what is important to the plot.

Are you willing to give up Nanoha's fight with Reinforce? Because that's similarly what you're asking for Fate to give up with her dream scene. Fate gave up a large portion of her battle time, why is this being ignored? Let me ask you this, exactly what shining moment with Fate is left if you remove her dream scene? This is what you're failing to comprehend. They kept her best scene because it's most peoples favorite scene, but they cut a ton of other stuff from her screen time to make room for that dream.

[Nanya01]

Whether we like it or not as fans who have a ship that we like, the fact is, Nanoha (series) has NEVER been focused on romantic relationships.

The most relationships we get are family ones (Erio and Caro to Fate, Fate to Lindy and Fate to Precia, Vivio to Nanoha) with side characters getting married.

So, if you think that love-love time for NanoFate is important, remember this, it was NEVER a focus of the series.

Demi., while I'm not Kaijo, I have flat out said that I hated the lack of Fate's BDH moment at the start, haven't I?

Besides, what you said, about Fate not having any other shining moments...

Well...

Isn't another complaint that I had was that Yuuno was basically not in the movie (15 seconds outside of exposition), so any of his shining examples that were in the series were removed?

Not fun when the shoe's on the other foot, huh?

[Sansker]

Maybe not in a romantic level but their relationship it is a key element in the first season because that ends being the most important story. How Nanoha and Fate become friends.

[Nanya01]

This is A's, not first season.

And, again, the only real NanoFate scene I would have removed, myself, would have really been the walk home after school scene as it really didn't serve any real point to the movie.

Anyway, all of you who think I'm hating on this movie...

Find a movie from your childhood that you really liked...

Go see of the Nostalgia Critic did a review on it.

You want to see hating on movies? You should see him at times.

And, yes, he hates on movies that are popular and movies that flat-out suck as well.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Maybe not in a romantic level but their relationship it is a key element in the first season because that ends being the most important story. How Nanoha and Fate become friends.

But not in the second, their friendship surely receives some developement in the TV series but the main focus always was Hayate and the Knights and how they changed their ways but were forced to retake their role as villains due to circunstances. Or at least that's how it used to be until MOVIE 2nd came around xDU

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

If you did, then I didn't see it; my apologies. But I've made a few post responses to you that you didn't reply to. I just figured you didn't have time.

Ok, fair enough. Apology accepted.

Instead of re-hashing old arguments, I've decided I'm going to try to work outside the box. Let's look at some scenes that haven't been discussed much at all when it comes to the movie, and see if any of them are expendable.


Here's an idea:

In the movie, at approximately 2:24:28, we see a brief scene of Chrono and Lindy (joined by Fate, Alph, and... that girl with a crush on Chrono) gathered around the grave of Chrono's father. At least, I'm pretty sure that's his grave. This scene ends at 2:24:41. So yes, it is a very brief scene.

Instead of ending here, cut out what comes after - Hayate meeting up with her Doctor, and Nanoha revealing her magical truth to Suzuka and Arisa. That all ends at 2:25:40. That gives us an extra minute.

Hayate meeting up with her Doctor is a nice bit, but I'm confident we'd agree it's pretty expendable. Nanoha revealing the truth to Suzuka and Arisa is, in my view, pretty important. I think it deserves more than what it received here. However, I think the best solution might be to have this be a significant part of the next film since we now know it's coming.


From 2:23:34 to 2:24:01 there are scenes focusing on Shamal... and a bunch of soldiers that I don't even know. Not a bad scene, but surely expendable. So there's an extra 20 to 30 seconds.

Add this extra minute and a half to the Chrono/Lindy grave-site scene. Give them some dialogue. Let there be some smiles and tears.


If we need a bit more, shave a minute or two off of the lengthier action scenes. Or shave a minute off of the Lotus Eater Dream. I like it being there, but it could be shorter.

If we need even more than that... Cut the Nanoha/Fate training scene. While it was amusing, it's the one scene focusing on just Nanoha and Fate that I personally would probably miss the least if it was removed. I honestly really loved the scenes of Fate in school.

What do you think, Kaijo? Does this give you enough to have the added Lindy/Chrono focus that you want?


My point is that you don't necessarily need to trim any Fate or NanoFate (well, aside from maybe the training scene, and a touch less Lotus Eater Dream) in order to get what you want for Lindy/Chrono.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Demi., while I'm not Kaijo, I have flat out said that I hated the lack of Fate's BDH moment at the start, haven't I?

You said that, but you're still on the boat with just about every other frequenter here claiming Fate gets all the glory. Lack of BDH scene didn't just hurt Yuuno.

Besides, what you said, about Fate not having any other shining moments...

Well...

Isn't another complaint that I had was that Yuuno was basically not in the movie (15 seconds outside of exposition), so any of his shining examples that were in the series were removed?

And I really think that's the key difference here. I think a main character deserves one or more shining moments. I would never go into a series or movie and complain about how a minor character never got the glory, even if that minor character was my favorite character. Yuuno got shaft raped in this film, but it's not Fate's screen times fault. She had whats deserving of a main character. And no more.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

This is A's, not first season.

And, again, the only real NanoFate scene I would have removed, myself, would have really been the walk home after school scene as it really didn't serve any real point to the movie.

Anyway, all of you who think I'm hating on this movie...

Find a movie from your childhood that you really liked...

Go see of the Nostalgia Critic did a review on it.

You want to see hating on movies? You should see him at times.

And, yes, he hates on movies that are popular and movies that flat-out suck as well.

Point taken on A’s but then again NanoFate has been a constant theme on the series for better or worse. I mean take that out and is like taking out the thing that really allow this to grow as it has this days. Is an element that needs to be address. Of course some better writing could help it but I didn’t see the scenes as a problem themselves.

On the Nostalgia Critic, who cares? I mean I like his show but even if I don’t agree with what he says doesn’t mean he can pull out a good laugh. What he says about a movie isn’t going to change how I see it.