Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Major1138

You can all you want - but the point I'm trying to make is that it's easy to claim that "ends justify the means" in the series, the writers can make it anyway they want. You're the one who said you can't focus on his methods because his ends are good.

Does the Ends of doing nothing at all justify the self-satisfaction of not hurting anyone, even though it just means someone else is doing the hurting right in front of your eyes?

"End doesn't Justify the Means" is a statement that completely ignores the situation. If a man is about to gun down some defenseless civilians, would you try to stop him by peacefully protests?

End does not justify the means. But in situations like this one, doing nothing at all is also not justified. If you try and justify allowing people to be killed by others just so you have the Ends of "not getting involved", then it is simply apathy and makes you equally guilty. That's why Zero made the point to the Japanese that they have to participate in their own liberation, not waiting for someone else to do it for them.

[Major1138]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Does the Ends of doing nothing at all justify the self-satisfaction of not hurting anyone, even though it just means someone else is doing the hurting right in front of your eyes?

"End doesn't Justify the Means" is a statement that completely ignores the situation. If a man is about to gun down some defenseless civilians, would you try to stop him by peacefully protests?

End does not justify the means. But in situations like this one, doing nothing at all is also not justified. If you try and justify allowing people to be killed by others just so you have the Ends of "not getting involved", then it is simply apathy and makes you equally guilty. That's why Zero made the point to the Japanese that they have to participate in their own liberation, not waiting for someone else to do it for them.

The point I was trying to make is that in both the show, and in the real world, you can't just say "the ends justify the means" and you can't say that "the ends don't justify the means", without knowing what the ends are and what means you intend to use to get there.

In your example with a man about gun down innocents, it would be a worthy end to stop him, and trying to stop him by say, attacking him first, would be a proportionate means to that end. You could even argue that you had to kill him first. But when your means become disproportionate to your ends, I think you start to lose legitimacy - even if your ends are good.

Zero has a reasonably noble goal in mind, and he's willing to do quite a lot to get there. But to suggest that since he has good ends, anything he does to achieve them is okay is pushing it a bit.

[KrimzonStriker]

Zero has a reasonably noble goal in mind, and he's willing to do quite a lot to get there. But to suggest that since he has good ends, anything he does to achieve them is okay is pushing it a bit.

I think this is where you're coming to a misunderstanding with us, thus far has Lelouch done anything incredibly costly when in pursuit of his ends? No? And if he intentionally went out of his way to take it too far then you'd see a different tone from all of us. The reason why we can all defend him is none of his means have gone beyond the worth of his ends. Oh and don't bring up Nunnally, I already pointed out his actions were opposite of his usual means to ends.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Major1138

Zero has a reasonably noble goal in mind, and he's willing to do quite a lot to get there. But to suggest that since he has good ends, anything he does to achieve them is okay is pushing it a bit.

I suppose it's more a point of there being no other possible means to obtain said noble ends.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ashlay

I suppose it's more a point of there being no other possible means to obtain said noble ends.

And Lulu understands this. That's why the Director often uses scenarios where there is no good answer to explain Lulu's character.

The classic "If two people are dying, and you have the strength to rescue only one, would you try to rescue both of them and ended up making them both die, or pick one person to be saved?" question.

Lulu will pick one person to save. It is the action he will take, not because it is GOOD, but because the alternative is worse. He can tell when there is no right answer, and chose the "less bad " answer instead.

[metronome]

lelouch huh......
I know some people that do not like him because they like suzaku, or because they like euphimia, or because plainly hate him in a lot of reasons.

One of the famous reasons to hate him is because he makes use of japanese for his personal reason.

But in my opinion, war is all about personal reason. Proof? When you are being told to join war to actually protect your country. (or when you are being told to join war to free your nation). If there is no personal reason to each of the participant that join war, there will be no war. You know there is some person that says:"no I joined war not because of my personal reason", while by just saying that he/she actually already stated that he/she has had personal reasons to join war. Even kallen join lelouch for her own personal reason too, and other black knights too, I think it is pretty good to say that "I join war for my own personal reason" rather than:"I join war for country, etc that sounds too good to be true".

Now about lelouch himself, he is not simple, that's why he makes a lot of uncommon mistakes.
But unlike light from death note, he is good natured.
And we need to remember that he has never used his geass to force people to join his black knight orders, he let them choose to join him or not, he even let them go anytime they think they are not satisfied with him, eg. during kallen's confusion time:P.

[deathkelsey]

I love him because he is portrayed as the hero and villain of the story depending on how the viewer feels about his cause. I hope he finally wins and doesn't end up like Light did at the end of death note.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by deathkelsey

I love him because he is portrayed as the hero and villain of the story depending on how the viewer feels about his cause. I hope he finally wins and doesn't end up like Light did at the end of death note.

He's a picaresque hero, not a villain. He certainly won't have an ending as bad as Light's. (episode 27 is probably the closest you're ever going to get to swimming lessons.) Of course that doesn't mean he won't die, he could, even if it's somewhat doubtful, but even if he does, he'll still succeed in his goal of making the world a place where Nunnally has a right to happiness and a future.

and Code Geass and Code Geass R2 are licensed!

[deathkelsey]

Originally Posted by ashlay

and Code Geass and Code Geass R2 are licensed!

My bad

But Is someone who uses people's life's as tools to create their own ideal world not to mention hes also out for revenge at least a little villainous. Either way Lelouch is one of the best anime characters out there in my opinion.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by deathkelsey

My bad

But Is someone who uses people's life's as tools to create their own ideal world not to mention hes also out for revenge at least a little villainous. Either way Lelouch is one of the best anime characters out there in my opinion.

His subordinates are not tools to him whatsoever. just see 11 or 13 or 18 or 20 or 25 or 27.

As for his enemies, well he does some pretty messed up things to them, but out of personal principle he never gives anyone a longterm order that could be part of a plan of his or give him any major benefits, such as "be my slave", even if he doesn't mind killing them. >_> There are lines Lelouch won't willingly cross, even if for the sake of enjoyment and drama the staff makes him accidentally cross most of them anyway.

[Voduar]

Originally Posted by ashlay

His subordinates are not tools to him whatsoever. just see 11 or 13 or 18 or 20 or 25 or 27.

As for his enemies, well he does some pretty messed up things to them, but out of personal principle he never gives anyone a longterm order that could be part of a plan of his or give him any major benefits, such as "be my slave", even if he doesn't mind killing them. >_> There are lines Lelouch won't willingly cross, even if for the sake of enjoyment and drama the staff makes him accidentally cross most of them anyway.

I've actually been a bit curious about why that has not come up in the series. We only know of the two long term orders, the one to his classmate and the other to Suzaku. Has he actually tried,"Live and die for Zero!" or has it not particularly occurred to him. Because it would seem that when interrogating his relative he should say, "Answer all my questions fully and truthfully" rather than just Geassing the one question.

[Cyz]

One thing I like about Lelouch is his level of intelligence. He definitely has leadership qualities and he usually approach a situation in a calm, analytical, and strategical point. I guess I'm not surprise that people follow him. Also, he's really not all that good (when I said good as in morals). He has a personality that somewhat dark, evil, and sarcastic but I think he was only doing that if he's in battle or something.

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by Voduar

I've actually been a bit curious about why that has not come up in the series. We only know of the two long term orders, the one to his classmate and the other to Suzaku. Has he actually tried,"Live and die for Zero!" or has it not particularly occurred to him. Because it would seem that when interrogating his relative he should say, "Answer all my questions fully and truthfully" rather than just Geassing the one question.

Lelouch isn't going to do any orders like that since it really isn't in his nature. He pretty much only uses orders on the enemy side that are to be temporary like the one with Darlton. And his order to Cornelia allowed for him to ask multiple questions and get answers. I think Lelouch knows not to say just one question because that would seem rather pointless in some cases.

[Voduar]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Lelouch isn't going to do any orders like that since it really isn't in his nature. He pretty much only uses orders on the enemy side that are to be temporary like the one with Darlton. And his order to Cornelia allowed for him to ask multiple questions and get answers. I think Lelouch knows not to say just one question because that would seem rather pointless in some cases.

Possibly, but as I recall he only asked Clovis one question. My suspicion is that at some point down the road the writers will give us a better explanation of how Geass works and why long term orders are complex. I mean, we now have the teleporting geass, which is the first one not intimately linked to the brain.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Voduar

Possibly, but as I recall he only asked Clovis one question. My suspicion is that at some point down the road the writers will give us a better explanation of how Geass works and why long term orders are complex. I mean, we now have the teleporting geass, which is the first one not intimately linked to the brain.

no, they're not. Lelouch doesn't give long term orders because he refuses to do so. It's as simple as that.

As for what the power of the geass is and what's up with C.C., V.V., the Sword of Akasha, etc., you will likely see that. But Lelouch just doesn't give long term orders because that's a part of his character. >_>

(though if you want to go beyond the show into why from a writing standpoint, it's because the writers don't allow themselves because then they'd get lazy with the use of the geass orders and the show would be relatively boring.)

[Voduar]

Originally Posted by ashlay

no, they're not. Lelouch doesn't give long term orders because he refuses to do so. It's as simple as that.

As for what the power of the geass is and what's up with C.C., V.V., the Sword of Akasha, etc., you will likely see that. But Lelouch just doesn't give long term orders because that's a part of his character. >_>

(though if you want to go beyond the show into why from a writing standpoint, it's because the writers don't allow themselves because then they'd get lazy with the use of the geass orders and the show would be relatively boring.)

Sorry, but I have to ask, why do the people here have this impression that Lelouch has the ability for longer geass's but chooses not to use them? We only have basically two incidences, and we havent seen Suzaku's live order re-kick in, yet. Oh, and Euphie's was probably long term as well, though we will never know that now. I am not saying Lelouch is ethicless, but it seems you are accrediting him with a much greater fortitude on this matter than he has shown any evidence of having.

[Dann of Thursday]

Because the staff said so.

[TheRainbowConnection]

Originally Posted by Voduar

SWe only have basically two incidences, and we havent seen Suzaku's live order re-kick in, yet.

We totally saw Suzaku's "Live" order kick back in in episode 20 when he's about to run out of power in his one-man assault. Euphie said something with "live" in it, and all of a sudden, his geass took effect.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Voduar

Sorry, but I have to ask, why do the people here have this impression that Lelouch has the ability for longer geass's but chooses not to use them? We only have basically two incidences, and we havent seen Suzaku's live order re-kick in, yet. Oh, and Euphie's was probably long term as well, though we will never know that now. I am not saying Lelouch is ethicless, but it seems you are accrediting him with a much greater fortitude on this matter than he has shown any evidence of having.

Why it's clear he has long term order abilities:
-Carve-tan marked the wall for 6 odd months
-Euphie
-Suzaku
-Mao

Why it's clear he refuses to willingly give long term orders:
-11,
Ougi: "people aren't pieces in a game. Zero wouldn't think that way. Otherwise, he would have manipulated us like chess pieces."

-18,
CC: "it's easy, isn't it? you could just use your geass on Suzaku"
Lelouch: "no."
CC: "why? stubbornness? friendship? Or pride?"
Lelouch: "all of them..."

-19, said he had never, ever planned to use his geass on Suzaku, and even when said order didn't help him in the long term, and saved Suzaku's life (along with his own), he still regretted it

-21, "the geass is too dangerous to use on Ougi and an unknown person"

-24, Darlton's geass order ends immediately after immobilizing Cornelia.

-27, did you even watch the scene with Kallen?


I'm sure I could think up another 2 or 3 examples if I bothered, but I think this should make it clear enough.

[Koshimizu]

Originally Posted by Voduar

Sorry, but I have to ask, why do the people here have this impression that Lelouch has the ability for longer geass's but chooses not to use them? We only have basically two incidences, and we havent seen Suzaku's live order re-kick in, yet. Oh, and Euphie's was probably long term as well, though we will never know that now. I am not saying Lelouch is ethicless, but it seems you are accrediting him with a much greater fortitude on this matter than he has shown any evidence of having.

Obvious evidence: If he wants to use long term geass for his own good, he should geass Suzaku to become his knight forever. It would also save both of them, and it benefits him instead of coming back and bite him.

The girl carving on the wall lasted for more than half a year, and we don't see it stopping yet. Yes. It can do long term.