Mobile Suit Costs

[Soluzar]

Originally Posted by JanthraX^

by 'bum rush' (im was thinking something that burly sailors get up to on the high seas =[ ) you mean lots of cheap units charging, this is very much an up side than having a few very powerful units, use history as an example with the Sherman VS Tiger , Sherman won hands down through sheer numbers and how quick damged tanks where replaced and fixed by new ones.

Sherman vs Tiger is a classic example of a "Bum Rush" working to perfection as a military strategy. There's probably a better terminology than that, but I don't know it. However...

Mobile Suits are not tanks and technology will be very different, so we cant really tell.

They have longer range, they have effective melee, they are fast and agile, they couldn't be more different to tanks, which is why I don't believe that Bum Rush tactics would ever work. Take the final battle of Gundam 0079. Sure, the GMs were plentiful in number, but if there had not been a few lucky coincidences, the Feddies shouldn't really have won...

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Well, the Zeon had the disadvantage of losing most of their best pilots in earlier battles so they were strained on manpower so they were stuck with using novice's and students while the Federation had most of their best pilots on their side so had experience over them as well which gave them a bit of an edge, despite the obvious MS Power differences (RGM-79's and RB-79/79K's taking out MS-09R/RII's and MS-14A's/B's/F's/JG's etc)

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by JanthraX^

by 'bum rush' (im was thinking something that burly sailors get up to on the high seas =[ ) you mean lots of cheap units charging, this is very much an up side than having a few very powerful units, use history as an example with the Sherman VS Tiger , Sherman won hands down through sheer numbers and how quick damged tanks where replaced and fixed by new ones.
BUT
Mobile Suits are not tanks and technology will be very different, so we cant really tell.

Actually, Shermans one with bait and run manuvers.


Leading the more impressive german armor into places where it was not able to manuver well, or even worse..in the woods, where they can't spin the turrets around or turn the tanks around, then they can hit them at leisure with their inferior weapons.


In all actuality, Shermans were more useful IMHO as protection for infantry against machine gun fire than they were useful against armor.


Shit, I think an infantry man jumping onto a German tank, and firing a burst of machine gun fire into the view ports and/or dropping a grenade down the hatch are much more effective means to deal with German tanks than the Sherman.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

DESTINY GUNDAM - The entire financial capital of Monte Carlo...

STRIKE-FREEDOM - The entire financial capital of Las Vegas...

.//hackatsuki - The entire financial capital of Forth Knox (and it actually uses the god-damn gold)...

EAF mass-produced suits - priceless ...

I sugest a few buget cuts for the EAF and ZAFT mass-produced programs...

For instance, all titianium armor should be replaced with cheap plasitic... those MS are made out of titanium, and yet, enemy fire cuts through them like a hot knife through butter... Hell, i'm not even sure if those Mass produced sheilds were ever even able to hold up to enemy fire... =P

[wingdarkness]

^Seriously I mean what's the point of infantry now? EAF should put all it's money into building 2 or 3 of the most ridiculous uber suits they can ever make with all their resources to match the other side...Better yet just build some sort of high energy weapon or weaponized program that can just blasts .hack and company out of the skies...Yeah another "BIG LASER", but make this laser...

bigger and better...

OK, I'll just shut up now...

[JanthraX^]

Soluzar true very true, but the think about how long ZEON had been operating with Mobile Suits they had experience with deployment of MS's and working with them.

Mobile suits where very new to the EFSF (UNT Army) ground crews didnt have a clue of how to handle them etc,, and pilots where realativly newbish compared to ZEON's

Komataguri, very true but it did work you cant win with just good weapons, you need tactical ideas to keep your self on top, the battle experienced German tank crews in Tigers, where easily lead into these traps by US Tank crews who had hardly seen action and took out those tigers.

GAHH, im sending this thread off topic =[ , sry

Back to money issues, im basing my multinational funded/RnD MS project on current modern projects, like the F-35 JSF and the Typhoon Euro Fighter.

[shaolo]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I sugest a few buget cuts for the EAF and ZAFT mass-produced programs...

For instance, all titianium armor should be replaced with cheap plasitic... those MS are made out of titanium, and yet, enemy fire cuts through them like a hot knife through butter... Hell, i'm not even sure if those Mass produced sheilds were ever even able to hold up to enemy fire... =P

I think the name for it is Craptianium. All the MS in the CE universe has it.

[Komataguri]

Well every unit uses beam weapons now in CE, and they just melt through armor


Hardly fair to call it crap just because it can't stand up to directed energy and plasma based weaponry.

[neodrag38]

Guys, I don't think the issue of money much less expense ever was thought about when it comes to the weaponry in CE. Especially when the EA's resources should quite well outnumber ZAFT's yet the EA gets creamed. So really such factors as cost much less even resources never truly seem to exist nor matter, especially when it comes to GSD.

[JokerD]

Originally Posted by Soluzar

Now me, I play Super Robot Wars a lot. I'm telling you straight out that in those games, no amount of Nemo, Rick Dias and GM mobile suits is worth as much on the battlefield as the Zeta or the Hyaku Shiki. That may be innacurate in real world terms, but I never really questioned it myself. I tend to think that the powerful uniques and prototypes are worth the extra investment for the miltary powers who control them. Tell me, do you really think that the "bum rush" would be an effective strategy in mobile suit battles?

That may be true in SRW since they actually limit how many MS you can send into a battle but in real life where you can deploy 10 or 20 grunt suits for a prototype suit I think even your newtypes and ace pilots will get overwhelmed.
"We got more MS for you to kill than you have energy for your suit"

[Komataguri]

Its all about numbers,


If you surround the most powerful tank in the world, with the cheapest weakest tanks in the world, that most powerful tank is gonna get raped.


one or two of the cheap tanks would be lost, but that powerful tank would be gone to.


So in a real world sense, numbers matter more than condensing extreme power into a single unit


Unless, of course, you are the Hildolfr, then you just rape anything and everything that comes across your path and be the immortal god of the battlefield.

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by Komataguri

Its all about numbers,


If you surround the most powerful tank in the world, with the cheapest weakest tanks in the world, that most powerful tank is gonna get raped.


one or two of the cheap tanks would be lost, but that powerful tank would be gone to.


So in a real world sense, numbers matter more than condensing extreme power into a single unit

Agreed, but CE clearly isn't even close to reality.

Unless, of course, you are the Hildolfr, then you just rape anything and everything that comes across your path and be the immortal god of the battlefield.

Immortal how? If you actually saw the second episode of MS Igloo then I guess you are simply just exaggerating is all.

[Commander 598]

The Hildolfr was taken out by a single 120mm round. Albeit, it was point blank in a "special" spot. It was screwed once the enemy got inside 1-2km of it.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Komataguri

Its all about numbers,


If you surround the most powerful tank in the world, with the cheapest weakest tanks in the world, that most powerful tank is gonna get raped.


one or two of the cheap tanks would be lost, but that powerful tank would be gone to.


So in a real world sense, numbers matter more than condensing extreme power into a single unit

Exactly!
The EAF and ZAFT should stop using their useless anti-beam coated titianium, and just use nice cheap plastic... their units would blow all the same, but this way thier a lot cheaper
Then they could build Their gurnts FAR cheaper and in FAR greater numbers then ever before... they would bury the enemy in grunts!

*pictures the gundams stuck underneath a pile of dead grunts*

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by Commander 598

The Hildolfr was taken out by a single 120mm round. Albeit, it was point blank in a "special" spot. It was screwed once the enemy got inside 1-2km of it.

The pilot was also a drug addict and it was his first time behind the wheel.

[neodrag38]

It's obvious that the pilot was quite skilled and that him being a "drug addict" didn't seem to have any real effect on his piloting ability. Especially when the drug you spoke of was ingested in front of other officers. The thing seemed to be so good because of its pilot rather than just simply its abilities. So please don't try to give someone the bad impression that the thing's performance was beyond his skills.

It's clear that the guy handle it like a pro. But whatever the case it remains that the thing wasn't immortal as you described it. That remains to be the main point in that what happened contradicts your exaggeration.

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by neodrag38

It's obvious that the pilot was quite skilled and that him being a "drug addict" didn't seem to have any real effect on his piloting ability. Especially when the drug you spoke of was ingested in front of other officers. The thing seemed to be so good because of its pilot rather than just simply its abilities. So please don't try to give someone the bad impression that the thing's performance was beyond his skills.

It's clear that the guy handle it like a pro. But whatever the case it remains that the thing wasn't immortal as you described it. That remains to be the main point in that what happened contradicts your exaggeration.

He drove it well, However.


He was not experianced with it.

And he was a druggie, Which may not have had obvious flaws, there are underlaying ones.



You certainly can not sit there and tell me that someone with no experiance with a piece of equipment would do better than if he had time to learn the ins and outs, the unique strengths and weaknesses, and how to truely manuver?



Skill is the essence of the entire argument, and while he was a skilled Artillery officer, he was a first time pilot of the Hildolfr, With practice he could have done what tank crews do today, and hit a target while on the move.


That was his critical flaw, he couldn't hit moving targets, so they got in dire proximity.


Thats another good point, He was an Artillery Officer, not a tank officer. Which also leads to the inability to hit a target while moving at a high rate of speed.

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by Komataguri

He drove it well, However.


He was not experianced with it.

And he was a druggie, Which may not have had obvious flaws, there are underlaying ones.



You certainly can not sit there and tell me that someone with no experiance with a piece of equipment would do better than if he had time to learn the ins and outs, the unique strengths and weaknesses, and how to truely manuver?

And you really can't just simply fault someone because they didn't have the chance to try out more ahead. It remains that the thing that seemed more flawed was the mech; not the pilot. Especially when the mech clearly had a technical flaw that the pilot still was able to surpass anyway. And that the drug you keep bringing up didn't seem to matter enough to not be seen by other officers as grounds for not allowing the guy pilot the mech much less still stay in service. So it remains that the drug you keep bringing up isn't exactly something that you can fault him on when it seems that it's perfectly legal to use it.

Skill is the essence of the entire argument, and while he was a skilled Artillery officer, he was a first time pilot of the Hildolfr, With practice he could have done what tank crews do today, and hit a target while on the move.

That was his critical flaw, he couldn't hit moving targets, so they got in dire proximity.

Thats another good point, He was an Artillery Officer, not a tank officer. Which also leads to the inability to hit a target while moving at a high rate of speed.

Couldn't hit moving targets? I'm sorry but you do realize that you are comparing modern day tank warfare with mech combat right? You do realize that you yourself pretty much put down the obvious difference when a tank crew consist of multiple people with different jobs along with getting the help of electronic systems for targeting tanks when it comes to what is done with a tank while this guy was able to do what he did by himself picking off targets with his intuition. It remains clear that the thing was thought not to have the performance to take on Zakus much less it wasn't designed to of course yet with this specific pilot it was able to do so. The thing clearly had flaws, especially with the certain one that was quite obvious when it comes to its treads, that the pilot was able to miraculous go beyond as far as he did.

You commented that the thing was immortal when it still is just simply another mech. Nor is it the only one in existence to take several out Zakus or even higher level targets. The thing didn't even reach the point of being mass produced nor even being made more than once nor having a mech built based around its design at a later time.

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by neodrag38

And you really can't just simply fault someone because they didn't have the chance to try out more ahead. It remains that the thing that seemed more flawed was the mech; not the pilot. Especially when the mech clearly had a technical flaw that the pilot still was able to surpass anyway. And that the drug you keep bringing up didn't seem to matter enough to not be seen by other officers as grounds for not allowing the guy pilot the mech much less still stay in service. So it remains that the drug you keep bringing up isn't exactly something that you can fault him on when it seems that it's perfectly legal to use it.

But he was clearly suffering from withdrawl, and it WAS his distraction with Withdrawl that allowed the final Zaku to sneak up on him, and it was that Distraction that let the Zaku finish the Hildolfr.

Couldn't hit moving targets? I'm sorry but you do realize that you are comparing modern day tank warfare with mech combat right? You do realize that you yourself pretty much put down the obvious difference when a tank crew consist of multiple people with different jobs along with getting the help of electronic systems for targeting tanks when it comes to what is done with a tank while this guy was able to do what he did by himself picking off targets with his intuition. It remains clear that the thing was thought not to have the performance to take on Zakus much less it wasn't designed to of course yet with this specific pilot it was able to do so. The thing clearly had flaws, especially with the certain one that was quite obvious when it comes to its treads, that the pilot was able to miraculous go beyond as far as he did.

A tank crew consists of the commander, who aquires and fires the shot.

and the driver, who drives it.

The third man nothing but the one that loads the rounds into the chamber, and is replacable with an auto-loader system.


Given he was an expert artillery officer, but I doubt very seriously he had 100% micromanagement over firing and driving, I would put money on the fact that both are assisted by the advance OS and computer programing they have in the gundam era. But no ammount of programing can make up for a lack of skill and it is clear that Artillery units DO NOT FIRE on moving targets, They fire on stationary targets, and thats why he could rape stationary Zakus, but had trouble with them on the move.

I'm not saying he wasn't skilled, I'm just saying he wasn't skilled in hitting a fast moving target like a tank crew would be.


As for overcoming a track jam, Thats hardly skill. He just realized firing powerful rounds sideways reared the tank up on one side, Thats hardly a miracle.

You commented that the thing was immortal when it still is just simply another mech. Nor is it the only one in existence to take several out Zakus or even higher level targets. The thing didn't even reach the point of being mass produced nor even being made more than once nor having a mech built based around its design at a later.

So? Just because it wasn't mass produced dosn't mean its not an effective weapon. It could have been any of a million reasons, The primary I bet, was the fact that the Zeons were focusing on Mobile Suits that could operate in Space and on Earth.


So mobile tank wasn't cost-feasable when they already were producing units that did both jobs, but no Zaku II could mount that much fire power or manuverabilty on land.


I would bet that the Hildolfr is the mobile tank equivilant of the Kaempfer, fast attack unit concealing heavy firepower and multiple types of it.

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by Komataguri

But he was clearly suffering from withdrawl, and it WAS his distraction with Withdrawl that allowed the final Zaku to sneak up on him, and it was that Distraction that let the Zaku finish the Hildolfr.

So you are saying that he was suffering withdrawal after he just took the drug only less than an hour ago? You still haven't really responded in explaining how exactly would a drug that would impact one's ability so much can be consumed in front in other officers with them knowing what it obviously is. And I remember the Hildolfr still being able to get off a shot on that very last Zaku soon enough. So it wasn't 100% taken out nor was unsavageable.

A tank crew consists of the commander, who aquires and fires the shot.

and the driver, who drives it.

The third man nothing but the one that loads the rounds into the chamber, and is replacable with an auto-loader system.


Are you saying it is impossible to come up with an OS to allow one person to do both jobs, in the gundam era? Sure there was some skill, Given he was an expert artillery officer, but I doubt very seriously he had 100% micromanagement over firing and driving, I would put money on the fact that both are assisted by the advance OS and computer programing they have in the gundam era.

He clearly was actually managing the driving and firing. That the mech he was using still wasn't expected to defeat multiple Zakus nor was it even thought to be good enough to be brought back. So it should be clear that based on the specs of the weapon itself that its level of performance resulted more upon the skills of the pilot. The thing still was obviously a prototype that the guy never was given a chance to practice with ahead of time.

As for overcoming a track jam, Thats hardly skill. He just realized firing powerful rounds sideways reared the tank up on one side, Thats hardly a miracle.

So? Just because it wasn't mass produced dosn't mean its not an effective weapon. It could have been any of a million reasons, The primary I bet, was the fact that the Zeons were focusing on Mobile Suits that could operate in Space and on Earth.

It is when you have a Zaku coming up in which he has to defend himself right after making the tank move.

And focusing on MS that operate in Space and Earth isn't much of a theory when we have the existence of MS that clearly aren't intended for usage for both Earh and Space. It remains that the thing never had successor nor was made more than once. Its specs alone clearly still weren't intended to deal with Zakus.

And the Guntank clearly makes it quite a possiblity to simply refit the thing for space usage.

So mobile tank wasn't cost-feasable when they already were producing units that did both jobs, but no Zaku II could mount that much fire power or manuverabilty on land.


I would bet that the Hildolfr is the mobile tank equivilant of the Kaempfer, fast attack unit concealing heavy firepower and multiple types of it.

And your assumption is fact how? It still remains that not all Zeon weapons were that of usable in both Earth and Space. And that it isn't simply an impossibility for the Hildorf to be made useful in space.

It still remains that the Hildolfr is not the only mech in that of UC that has taken out multiple Zakus.

EDIT: Hmm, this conversation has lead to an interesting bout idea though. Hildorf vs Guntank would be interesting, though short.