[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Don't forget the final one regarding Beatrice's heart:

EP4 Who...aaam I......?
Illusions... to illusions. ......The promised reaper lowers the curtains on the tale regardless of the witch's will.

And yeah, we may never know the true answers to some of these riddles due to ambiguity.

A thought on reinterpreting that one:

"It doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter what you want to know. Someone has shut this story up and now who you are is determined by what people say about you."

Kind of a nihilistic thought, but it ties in to the other conclusion he raises about a cat box's truth. Taken from a "not the culprit" angle, it could mean that the problem with the story was caused by an external force (the true culprit or something).

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

EP4 9th twilight (final riddle)
Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. ......When fiction is shut up inside a cat box, it becomes truth.

This is a long shot, but I think Will is basically saying that the very reason of this cat box is the final explosion that will kill everyone. That alone should explain Beatrice's last riddle.

It could be saying that Battler really was killed by Beatrice in the EP4 fiction, even though he was actually alone on the island on R-Prime. Sort of an earlier version of Kanon's disappearance from EP6.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Titanguy654

Is that so? Then thanks for the confirmation, Will, disregarding the fact that it doesn't prove how the closed room was set. What was the point of him answering in riddles, again?

You answer riddles with more riddles, its how you prove you understand the essence of whats going on. But really if they where dead and there where no illusions then the door must have been locked and the people where dead. So one of them committed suicide after killing the others and locking the door? Kinda anti-climatic.

e- I also dont get the last twilights in EP1. I never felt that this was a closed room since Maria was in it, their deaths where declared in red (kinda unless those three refer to other three, poor form if true) and someone had to walk out of the room to meet with Nats later and that someone probably had keys sooooo

[Teapot]

Originally Posted by Titanguy654

Is that so? Then thanks for the confirmation, Will, disregarding the fact that it doesn't prove how the closed room was set. What was the point of him answering in riddles, again?

All we got from that scene were confirmations of when people were really dead,when people faked their deaths and that the fantasy scenes were obvious lies, I guess whatever methods the fans make of how the crimes went down will satisfy Ryukishi....

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Titanguy654

Is that so? Then thanks for the confirmation, Will, disregarding the fact that it doesn't prove how the closed room was set. What was the point of him answering in riddles, again?

So we aren't spoonfed the answers. Didn't Ryukishi say he wanted to avoid that?

I'm sure the community has a reputable answer for practically ever mystery. Simply apply Shkannontrice (the key) and unlock every mystery (sort of like how Featherine was saying).

If you personally dislike Shkannon, feel free to speculate further on the matter. At this point I've accepted it.

edit: I'm not saying Shkannon solves everything, simply some of the mysteries. But I'm sure that in these 997 pages there is a good answer for every individual mystery.

[Renall]

Not necessary to solve any of the mysteries. Fake deaths are closer to the key than anything.

[Titanguy654]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

So we aren't spoonfed the answers. Didn't Ryukishi say he wanted to avoid that?

I'm sure the community has a reputable answer for practically ever mystery. Simply apply Shkannontrice (the key) and unlock every mystery (sort of like how Featherine was saying).

If you personally dislike Shkannon, feel free to speculate further on the matter. At this point I've accepted it.

edit: I'm not saying Shkannon solves everything, simply some of the mysteries. But I'm sure that in these 997 pages there is a good answer for every individual mystery.

I understand Ryukishi's motive for doing that, but why did Will do it in context with the story?

[Teapot]

It's Beato's funeral bro, they had to celebrate with one last "reasoning fight", like the ones Ep 2 and 3

[AuraTwilight]

Because saying things in a straightforward manner means Featherine and the other Observer Witches get the answers without thinking, which is exactly what they DON'T want. Therefore, Bern would probably have a fit.

[Jan-Poo]

Nobody is asking Will to say things in a straightforward manner, but he still needs to provide an answer that it's an answer.
He basically is supposed to give an answer in the form of a riddle, however some answers not only aren't really good as riddles since their meaning is quite apparent, they do not provide any answer at all, or they aren't really pertinent to what he's supposed to answer.


I think he did quite well for EP1 and EP2, but after that it seems he doesn't even bother anymore.

[AuraTwilight]

Clair understood him. That's really the only person he has to answer to.

...That, or we're misunderstanding what Will's actually saying.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Oh I will do that! I wanted to do it anyway. Here we go:

Thanks for the analysis. I kinda did it in my head too but was too lazy to write it down. 8) For the most part I totally agree with what you said, but maybe there's two things I can add that will give some insight:

So, for the most part I took it to mean that 'illusions' meant that people were just lying about a murder having actually occurred. And when they lie, it's usually to do with the Epitaph game where people pretend they're dead. However for 'earth' I take it to mean that a real murder occurred; like an unplanned situation.

Now, I'm thinking that what Will says is only relevant to Clair/Beatrice. i.e. when he says, 'illusion' it means what the people set up to begin with. It doesn't mean that the situation stays like that; the people could eventually be murdered on the spot or murdered elsewhere after they move about. Will's only concern was the initial starting point that Beatrice set up. So...

Spoiler for Long:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

EP1 4th twilight (Kinzo in the boiler room)
Illusions to illusions. ......Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs.

This isn't so easy to understand, but it seems that Will is suggesting that the corpse they saw isn't even Kinzo's. At any rate there isn't really a mystery here, so I don't get what else there would be to solve.
Maybe this simply means that Kinzo's corpse was burned to hide the fact that he was dead since a long time. At any rate it isn't really that important imo.

I took this to mean that Kinzo's body was used to create the illusion of a murder. When in fact there was no murder for Kinzo; he died of natural causes. And thus it's an 'illusion' rather than simply a 'corpse' or a 'death.'

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

EP2 4th 5th 6th twilight (Gohda, George and Shannon inside Natsuhi's room)
Earth to earth. ......No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room

This one is hard. The meaning of "Earth to earth" isn't as clear as "Illusions to Illusions", it probably means that this is a fact. But how exactly this solves the mystery? There can be many speculations. I think someone pointed out that this seems to quote a famous murder case. However that path was non conclusive, it is still unclear what Will exactly meant to say.

So with this 'Earth,' I take it to mean that this was a real situation where people were murdered and wasn't part of Beatrice's plan of faking; however it is something she ended up using as part of her story. So basically the answer here is that no one is faking death; Shannon was really shot through the head, George was really killed and Gouda was really killed. Not sure in which order...

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

EP2 7th and 8th twilight (Nanjo and Kumasawa killed by zombie Kanon)
Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. ......No illusion can create a corpse.

Very unclear. Is he talking about Kanon killing them or the dead themselves?
In the first case he's simply reiterating that Kanon didn't really die to begin with and so the culprit is obviously Shannon. In the second case it means that Nanjo and Kumasawa simply faked their own death.
This still doesn't explain what kind of role Gohda had with this. I personally would find it disappointing if the whole stuff was made up.

I took this 'earth' AND 'illusion' to mean that people were really killed and then their bodies were *still* used to try and create an illusion. Kinda gruesome. So, yah, this one is harder... but I was initially thinking the reverse: illusion at first and then a real murder. This is because Gouda, Shannon and Genji went to the others and had this 'tale' of a disappearing Kanon and when they returned they expected to see Nanjo and Kumasawa faking their deaths. Instead, the two were moved, killed and their bodies were found outside later; this ended up being a real murder by Beatrice (i.e. through Kanon)? Hmm...

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

EP3 2nd twilight (Maria and Rosa in the rose garden)
Earth to earth. ......No falsehoods in their final moments as told.

This doesn't tell us much. Unfortunately from this point onward Will just decides to be a bitch. Well of course you could say that this means that Maria and Rosa were actually killed. Maybe this also means that they were actually killed by Eva.
But the way they were killed certainly can't be the truth! So wtf Will? Whatever...

So this is where you see I got the idea that earth means 'a real murder occurred.' When Will doesn't say it's an illusion but earth, I don't think he's talking about how real the fantasy scenes are. It's about when the bodies are found; are they faking or are they really dead...

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

EP4 9th twilight (Kumasawa and Gohda in the shed, Maria in the parlor)
mysteriously left unaddressed

I bet this one would be 'Illusions to illusions; Earth to earth.' They attempted to fake their deaths but someone came along and killed them for real. When Battler found them they were in a state of being both... heh.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Titanguy654

Is that so? Then thanks for the confirmation, Will, disregarding the fact that it doesn't prove how the closed room was set. What was the point of him answering in riddles, again?

Shannon killed George and Godha, then killed herself.

Perhaps "Illusion to illusion" means that piece-Battler has accepted the word of a liar as a key part of making the crime work. Earth to earth means Battler has an accurate understanding of the crime / crime scene. That is:
E1T1: Hideyoshi (why?) and Kanon -- Shannon wasn't there
E1T2: Genji and Kanon -- chain wasn't set
E1T4: Natsuhi -- met Kinzo in the study
E1T5: Nanjo (Jessica could have been fooled) -- Kanon died
E1T678: unsure -- tape recording of Maria to give Shkannon some extra time?

E2T1: Rosa (why?), Gohda (why?), Genji, Kanon, Shannon, Nanjo
E2T2: Rosa (why?), Shannon, Genji - existence of Kanon? Shannon's alibi?
E2T456: -- There weren't any real lies here. The door really was locked, and they really were dead inside.
E2T78: Gohda (why?), Shannon, Genji --Illusion to illusion refers to the zombie attack and disappearance; earth to earth refers to the real crime scene.

E3T1: Hideyoshi (why?), Nanjo? -- Shannon's body is explicitly mentioned as being behind a sofa
E3T2: -- again, no lies here
and so on

[Zero Sora]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Perhaps "Illusion to illusion" means that piece-Battler has accepted the word of a liar as a key part of making the crime work. Earth to earth means Battler has an accurate understanding of the crime / crime scene. That is:

Except this whole thing was about how well Will understood Clair. It had nothing to do with Battler's understanding of the murders.

[rogerpepitone]

Let me rephrase that: "how well piece-Battler / other characters not in on the crime understood the scenes at the time".

For example, Battler understands E1T1 as "Six corpses (Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Shannon, Gohda) were in the shed."; it's actually "Five corpses were in the shed."

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Shannon killed George and Godha, then killed herself.

How did she drive a (sharp) paperweight into her skull?

[rogerpepitone]

The paperweight wasn't in her skull; it was next to the skull.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

The paperweight wasn't in her skull; it was next to the skull.

I seem to remember the stake falling out of the hole in her head, but whatever.

In that case, how did she kill herself? If it was a gun, where did the gun go?

[Cao Ni Ma]

An elaborate contraption that involved a pair of glasses, a handkerchief, a rope and a gun

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

An elaborate contraption that involved a pair of glasses, a handkerchief, a rope and a gun

Have you ever seen that one Family Guy episode where Brian explains gravity by tossing objects at Peter and watching them orbit his fat?

A similar trick was used.