2012-10-20, 23:42 | Link #41 | |
Stüldt Hĺjt!
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Some ideas have the virtue of being fresh simply because they are just that rare. And thus you can actually expect more from them than you would expect from any other generic anime.
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Last edited by zarqu; 2012-10-21 at 00:13. |
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2012-10-21, 00:01 | Link #42 | |
Moving in circles
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Age: 49
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Unfortunately, I don't. I am forced to execute the best I can within my constraints. I imagine the same agony exists for many anime production committees. If I were in their position, I would feel very much like saying, "Hmm, OK. Thanks for telling me the obvious. Unless you have more specific advice to help me cope with my specific challenges, I'll get on with my job..." Don't get me wrong. I'm all for getting feedback from viewers. But when the feedback basically amounts to, "You know, your 'execution' sucked, why couldn't you have done it the way so-and-so done it in this-and-that project, which I thought was great (I don't really care if that this-and-that project wasn't what you were trying to achieve, just give me what I want)... Well, that's not really what I call constructive feedback. |
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2012-10-21, 00:09 | Link #43 | |
Stüldt Hĺjt!
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I would love to see some data about the schedules of the most profiting anime studios in the market at the moment. I mean, if you've got a good premise, even subpar execution won't screw it up, right? And vice-versa.
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2012-10-21, 00:11 | Link #44 |
My posts are frivolous
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I agree with the view that excellent execution can make up for a common premise but is usually insufficient to take a show from good to great. The analogy that I brought up in another thread was that of Olympic Diving, in which a diver gets points for both execution and difficulty. A simple jacknife dive, when done well, will obviously be worth more than a botched difficult dive, but simply being a master of the jacknife will never be enough to win gold if the opponents can pull off decent 3.5 somersaults.
If we're talking about "great" in reference to the shows that are the cream of the crop, then these shows will generally need both execution and premise. If we're simply referring to shows that are above average, then execution alone might suffice. |
2012-10-21, 00:13 | Link #45 | |
Moving in circles
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You know what? I'm just glad that anything gets produced at all. Anything can be made better. Hindsight, after all, is always 20-20. |
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2012-10-21, 00:18 | Link #46 | ||
Stüldt Hĺjt!
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Once again I only have to lament my ignorance when it comes to the Japanese language: What "news" agency is the source in the above post etc. Quote:
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2012-10-21, 00:47 | Link #47 | ||
Black Steel Knight
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You think that well-executed show like Madoka Magica isn’t restricted by money & time? It's as restricted as Guilty Crown and Aquarion EVOL, but the difference in execution really shows due to some factors I mentioned in my previous post. And I’m not talking about whether anime studios makes profit or not. I’m talking about difference in execution even though they have the same “technical resource” (a.k.a. time & money). The difference is the people who work on it and how well they do their job.
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2012-10-21, 00:48 | Link #48 | |||
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That being said, you managed to in one post turn mere competency into something to strive for. I'd hope it goes without saying that everyone should always strive for their best in what ever field you are a part of and aiming for averagedom should not be encouraged (though it is a natural state for quite a few productions). Quote:
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2012-10-21, 00:55 | Link #49 | |
NOM
Join Date: Jun 2008
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In regards to "execution" being vague, for me at least, I mostly refer to pacing (sequence/duration/fleshing out of scenes and dialogue) and presentation (music, art, animation, style, general atmosphere). Not everything has to be done great, just certain parts good enough and others not too bad. I guess it's still rather nebulous in the end; I only really know a good execution when I find myself immersed in a show. If I know exactly what makes good execution, I'd go direct those darn things myself.
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2012-10-21, 01:19 | Link #50 | |
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I'm not exactly sure where people are drawing the line between "premise" and "execution" for the sake of this discussion. But I will say that a lot of my favourite shows have had what I might call an "evolving premise". The show starts and you think it's about one thing, but as the story goes on you realize that it's really about something broader, and then that it's really about something broader still, until eventually you realize that everything you saw previously was only there to lead to the conclusion. And then you look back at the show and say "ahh... this show was really about <x>" -- which may be entirely different than the "premise" you thought it had to start with. I would say that it's perhaps a bit less like a diving competition, and more like an ice skating routine. There are still points for both presentation and technical merit, but it's a composite of a lot of different aspects (both simple and complex) coming together over time. Some of my other favourite shows have in fact revealed their central premise right from the start, but it's the way that the premise was developed in multiple unique and interesting ways over the course of the narrative that make it memorable and remarkable to me. Perhaps it's because there are certain premise concepts that are more "timeless" than others. For example, a really simple premise is "a love story between two people", or perhaps (along the same lines) "a love triangle". These sorts of stories have been told since time immemorial, but still have a lot of power to move people. So in these cases, perhaps it does depend a little bit more on the setting, the characterization, and the "execution" to go from good to great, even though the central premise may be "common". And the other thing I might add, regarding the value of a "unique premise", is that I think it depends a bit on the audience. One of the things that some anime fans often lament is that there are certain plot premises that seem rather "evergreen", and keep coming up endlessly. But it's also important to remember that new fans are entering the fandom all the time. The uniqueness of the premise matters most to those who've "already seen it all", which doesn't describe everyone. While all shows aim for a certain level of excellence (as much as they are able within their constraints), there is still a market for shows with tried-and-true premises that aren't necessarily going to redefine the genre or set a new standard, even long past the point when some fans have "outgrown" or "gotten bored" of those sorts of shows. Viewers aren't necessarily born as Olympic judges, after all, and not all aspire to be; at the end of the day, the main goal is to be entertained.
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2012-10-21, 01:45 | Link #51 | |
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Whereas I think that we're not on the same page and you're taking things for granted that I disagree with. See, I asked "potential to do what?" for a reason. Here's your answer:
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But it would be nuts to judge a show that in no way attempts to explain the human condition according to these standards. It's not that I disagree with anything you said so far. It's just that you seem to start out with an assumption: Anime that explores the human condition > Anime that does not explore the human condition This is why I asked. I already disagree on that level. Take Kimi ni Todoke, my example from the other post. It doesn't really explore the human condition (which is not to say that a skilled critic can't extract such an exploration, but that's another topic). Instead it re-inforces familiar ideologies; it re-inforces positions on, say, friendship (which I agree with) and maybe also gender roles (which I agree with... less). It derives it's strength from a safe sort of gentleness that I find very appealing, but it also sets up a model of romance which I can't identify with. Whatever the shows position or my own, the show is consequent in what it does, achieves it exceptionally well, and makes me accept positions which I don't (and likely never will) hold. It's a successful show in that respect. It's true that other shows might have more to say about the human condition. I'm not clear on why I should care. It's not that I prefer emotional anime. It's just that the subjugation of all other potential draws under a humanist appeal shouldn't be the default. And once you let go of the default, you might find that - due to different goals - different shows might have to put different priorities on concept or execution. And while I'm at it: I'm not even sure where "concept" ends and "execution" begins. For example, with Jinrui wa Suitai Shimashita, are the cheerful colouration and visuals that clash with the melancholy mood and absurd humour part of the concept or the execution? The concept of the execution? Also, I think the show is not that deep; human-condition exploring is there, but if you focus on that, I think you're underrating the show. It's human interest is part of what makes show good, but if you strengthen and deepen the exploration the show might suffer, because the lighter parts and silly humour might come across as more gimmicky than they do now. |
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2012-10-21, 05:43 | Link #52 | |
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To address other topic brought up in this thread, I do think that all narrative ideas are equal. You seeing "more potential" in dystopian sci-fi VS four girls iyashikei is purely a conditioning based on your social standing. I too, prefer some genres over others and avoid watching many things just because of their premise or genre. But what is better and worse isn't the same thing for everyone. Otherwise, I believe that good execution, in the broad sense of the word, always makes a piece of fiction better for the same genre and epoch. Citizen Kane was ground breaking not because of its substance but because its amazing cinematography. Same for many Kubrick films which were mostly adaptations of already existing works. |
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2012-10-21, 06:52 | Link #53 |
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Right I don't consider storytelling or how the story unfolds part of the premise, I consider that part of the execution.
It is true that the actual premise of a story in early episodes can be misleading but then again this is still an aspect of execution because it was the author's choice to mislead the audience to surprise them for instance. I would say Gen Urobuchi did this with Madoka.
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2012-10-21, 07:49 | Link #54 |
Criminal Unrequitor
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Part of why I termed this "the execution effect" is the wow factor that I, personally, get when watching an anime with a beat up premise feel as refreshing, or sometimes even more so, than an anime with a unique premise. The wow and surprise factor is the key, personally, to experiencing the execution effect.
In a critic sort of sense, I do get wow'd slightly more to an anime that's able to pull a generic premise nicely than something with a unique premise simply because the staff working on it managed to pull it off. Not that I don't want unique premises but it's just my two cents on the matter.
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2012-10-21, 08:10 | Link #55 | ||||
Me at work
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I'm not even sure how to reply to it so I'll just go back to what was said earlier Quote:
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2012-10-21, 08:27 | Link #56 |
Stüldt Hĺjt!
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Thanks for your thoughts. We have to agree to disagree, on some level at least.
Meh. I mulled over this, but I can't bring myself to say that all narrative ideas are equal. But in the end, it's a value judgement. A matter of taste, so to speak.
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Last edited by zarqu; 2012-10-21 at 08:54. |
2012-10-21, 17:05 | Link #57 |
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Let me try to explain exactly what I mean by not all narrative ideas being equal.
When the author is conceptualizing his or her story, there's a core foundation that the story is being built upon. This foundation may be "high school romance comedy". It may be "harem comedy". It may be "high school romance comedy... but half the students are androids!". It may be "harem comedy... but two of the girls used to be guys!" When I was contrasting Psycho-Pass with a "high school romance comedy", I wasn't making a genre comparison or judgement. I was contrasting Psycho-Pass to something that's just a high school romance comedy... no other twist to it, no other hook to it. What you see is what you get. So I'm not making a commentary on high school romance comedy as a genre, because some shows in that genre can actually be pretty complex depending on what the concept behind one is (one could argue that Kokoro Connect is a high school romance comedy, but it obviously has a lot of added "twists" to that). Now, let's say your narrative idea is epic high fantasy that will run a substantial length, and it involves numerous races, plenty of lore, lengthy wars, and analogies to WWII. Or let's say your narrative idea is to have a story placed several hundred years in the future, and it's about humanity exploring space in wondrous spaceships featuring loads of different alien races and surprises behind every turn. Or let's say your narrative idea is to have a story take place in a galaxy far, far away in which a Rebellion rises up against a corrupt and seemingly all-powerful Empire, with the twist being that one of the leading figures of the Rebellion is the son of the Emperor's 2nd-in-Command. Now, I just delved into the narrative ideas behind The Lord of the Rings, Star Trek, and Star Wars. These are three of the most popular franchises in the history of fiction itself. And there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the strong concepts behind them is a big part of the reason why they're three of the most popular franchises in the history of fiction itself. So no, I completely reject the notion that all narrative ideas are equal. Some narrative ideas could never pull off what Star Trek pulled off. Edit: And really, anime is not much different. The most popular anime shows tend to have complex concepts behind them. Code Geass is a potpourri of anime genres. Nanoha fuses magical girl with mecha in a pretty distinct way. NGE and Madoka Magica were genre deconstructions with huge twists being inherent to the narrative ideas behind both. The Monogatari series is harem comedy, but its loaded with all sorts of supernatural and mystery and action elements. The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya has a pretty complex narrative concept behind it. SAO explores the concept of VR MMOs, in a pretty fresh and distinct way.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-10-21 at 17:20. |
2012-10-21, 17:31 | Link #58 |
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^Just looking at the current Top 10 anime shows per week, it is evident that "concept" isn't the highest selling point. It certainly helps, but when 6 out of 10 shows are fairly middling to average in terms of "concept" then it seems obvious that concept (or premise) is not a necessary component of popularity.
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2012-10-21, 17:42 | Link #59 | |
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For example, there's a lot of Pokemon-esque shows out there now, but how many shows like Pokemon were there when Pokemon itself first came out? In any event, I'm not saying that strong concept is necessary for some measure of popularity, but if you look at the properties that have seemingly timeless appeal, they tend to have pretty strong concepts behind them.
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2012-10-21, 18:42 | Link #60 |
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What you define as strong concepts, I see just as popular ideas with the 20th century western world. There's a different view of what is strong and weak, high or low brow, in other cultures.
And even accepting what you said, there had been a lot of similar fiction before Star Wars or Star Trek, and they utterly failed to become popular enough. When the concepts are similar in nature, what makes or breaks a franchise is the way the concepts are communicated. So again, "execution" is the defining thing here, because it can make any and all concepts seem like the most interesting thing ever, and if done badly it can butcher a story with a "strong" premise and plot. |
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