2012-01-12, 16:38 | Link #27001 | |||
The True Culprit
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But even if what she said isn't true, she said it for a reason. Quote:
Even with your interpretation of Meta, Toya (or whoever) could have read Hanyuu, and created his Featherine character based on it with the backround that she is Hanyuu's true self. But I honestly don't think that "The Meta-World is just one person's mind" is really supportable because it requires conjuring a lot of narrative details with absolutely no purpose.
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2012-01-12, 16:48 | Link #27002 | ||||
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...Mind you, I'm not saying that any of the following is the truth. I have since changed my opinions quite a lot, actually. But when I first finished EP8, this is what I believed. Spoiler:
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2012-01-12, 17:36 | Link #27003 | ||||
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So most of the material we've about Yasu is filtered. If you decide to believe in it as it is, well, that's good for you, you've a lot of material to work with. I'm more wary in taking it as it is so I've only little material I deem reliable enough. Also so far I've only read summaries of 'Our confession'. I can't express a definite judgement on something I didn't read in full (though I'm really, really grateful for the summaries). Quote:
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I've heard many times of Bern being Featherine's piece but Hanyuu never came up. Either I missed the post mentioning it or it wasn't discussed during the time I joined animesuki... Quote:
Poor Yasu... Spoiler:
Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-01-12 at 18:01. |
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2012-01-12, 19:02 | Link #27004 | |
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Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Also, using some kind of deceptive trick to make it look like they were written pre-incident, such as getting some critical person to lie, is right up Beatrice's alley. It's not that coincidence is impossible, it's just stupid. Stupid in a "small bombs" kind of way. Forget about those silly small bombs; although they are technically a possible answer, the better answer is clearly that the chapel was never locked in the first place (i.e. the stories weren't even written pre-incident in the first place). And let me add the issue of motive. To write beforehand basically supposes that Yasu's the culprit, because the only way her messages-in-bottles are meaningful is if the island actually blows up and generates a cat box, and apparently the only way that could happen is if she did it herself or allowed it to happen. And if not, then we have another ridiculous coincidence when Yasu predicts that the island would meet its end at 24:00 Oct. 5, 1986. And if she wrote pre-incident she's not even writing to cover for someone, because she doesn't even know there will be a crime yet (unless she does know that someone is up to something and for some inexplicable reason does nothing to stop them). Pre-incident writing just doesn't make sense. |
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2012-01-12, 19:03 | Link #27005 | |
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100% of Umineko follows his convenience. Ange's future is beyond a shadow of a doubt by now entirely a fiction. Saying "someone wrote story X" is easy for the one real writter, Ryuukishi. Same as saying a thousand years. And yes, this is the world of stories, coincidences just happens that way. Beside, you guys are overall, I'd say, a bit too narrow minded when it comes to mystery stories: I've just finished reading one where the culprit created a "closed room" using a time machine, yet it was 100% fairplay and solvable from the reader's pov. I don't have troubles with things not making 100% sense, if they did there wouldn't even be concepts such as "main character". You're going to say it's a crappy mystery, perhaps, or something like that? That might be. However it's from Anthony Boucher, mentioned in OC by Beatrice, and thus I'd say quite a huge influence on Umineko. So, from my understanding, Ange's very existence suits Ryuukishi's needs: If she didn't exist basically no one would really care about everyone dying on the island, and thus there couldn't be an "after" character who has a relation to the mystery that is ultimately very close to our's. If you forget "Ange's role to Ryuukishi", I don't think you can understand her, and thus indirectly Umineko at all. Author theory, I've said it over and over again, is there to make us reason Umineko, all of it, as a story. However I think it was probably Ryuukishi's greatest failure, as it seems the majority of fans ended up using it as a means to lose their suspension of disbelief toward the arcs and move it one level ahead to a wholly theorical Rokkenjima Prime (I'd like to remind you that the story itself never mentioned the term once). Edit: At least from my pov, it seems many fans would accept pretty much anything as long as it doesn't break the laws of physics, no matter how absurd it gets. Even if it breaks all common sense, it's okay as long as it doesn't break the laws of physics. Such a scenario is the implication that "an outsider" wrote about how "real people died" and does whatever she wants with it. I'm not entirely clear if there's really strict laws against this or not, but I don't think there's any equivalent in our world. Basically what you'd need is for Rokkenjima to really have existed and really have blown away in 1986 (to the real us) and yet to have Ryuukishi write Umineko based on it. That'd be terrible wouldn't it? Now imagine if secretly Ryuukishi was living with the sole survivor from it, who conveniently happened to have amnesia and identity loss. That'd be so ridiculously incredible to me. It's not "impossible" as it doesn't break the laws of physics, but it would remain very hard to swallow, and also make Ryuukishi a pretty terrible person. The funniest thing is that Battler has been repeating over that he cannot prove magic/witches doesn't exist, simply that they weren't used to commit murders in these two days. It really leaves open very large the door that in a "prime" world, magic is real. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-01-12 at 19:26. |
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2012-01-12, 19:22 | Link #27006 | |
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a) writing mysteries can be fun b) it can also work as stress relief Those two reasons would have her writing, and probably writing a lot, without really planning to harm someone. Second. Although I don't like the idea Yasu might have actually killed someone is possible she thought of doing so then came to her senses and gave up. It's also possible she thought of not killing the others but was still planning to kill herself and not the others. And it's also possible she was planning to leave the island anyway and wanted someone to solve her game even if Battler failed to solve it. In short, if Battler wasn't capable to solve her game she was hoping a Will would find the message in the bottle and solve it. Also the messages doesn't really cover up for someone. They might have if they had presented possible description of what had happened. As the two messages found showed two different tales which doesn't even include Eva's survival it's clear they aren't reliable. The Shannon/Kanon culprit theory is never mentioned so either the messages weren't solvable/were solvable but no one managed to solve them, they didn't place the blame on Shannon/Kanon or the Shannon/Kanon culprit theory wasn't deemed interesting/realistic enough. Now maybe the messages could have implied the culprit was Beatrice and some people can find cool the idea that a witch did it but... how much believable is it? Honestly, all the messages could prove is that: - they weren't written by Eva or Maria (I guess they never checked for everyone's writing or they would have found out the writer was Shannon) - someone might have been planning a crime that also aimed to have Eva among the victims. This doesn't really assure people that character X is innocent. However I know you're secure the messages had to be written after the incident so I doubt you'll consider anything I can say. We've discussed this already. So let's just agree to disagree. |
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2012-01-12, 19:27 | Link #27007 | |
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I don't really understand how you can be arguing that there is no Prime yet also arguing that the stories were written pre-incident. |
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2012-01-12, 19:33 | Link #27008 | ||
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But you're right: That kind of trick is right up her alley. And at any rate, I rather like that theory. Quote:
But I do think that sort of thing is perfectly valid. Even so, while I think that you're right about author theory, I don't believe it needs to be taken quite that far. Understanding the stories Yasu and the Hachijos wrote, and why they wrote them, and just what kind of people they are, seems to be enough. I don't really feel the need to start looking at it from Ryukishi's point of view, except when it comes to finding cues that he might have put in the story to help us reason out the correct answers to the above mysteries. And I don't think Prime is actually that important. As has been said, it might not even exist. I only wanted to consider it for the sake of hopefully finding more answers to the mystery of Yasu. |
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2012-01-12, 19:37 | Link #27009 | ||
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However this is sorta a twisted question/answer. "Ange's world" is a story on it's own, however in this story, there are message bottles which contains at least elements of previous arcs. In that story, like in every other, nearly everyone on the island died. In Ange's world thus, were the stories written before or after all of it happened, and this is what I'm saying that they definitively were written before. That's basically her story... The world where "it really happened". Also it's imo way more stupid if the writer wrote them after while knowing that Eva survived, yet made the fictions claiming she was dead. Actually this very state of things makes it so a storm could not have happened or Ange could've gone to Rokkenjima without changing the situation where we are in (seeing on one hand hints that it was written before, and one another hand hints that it was written after). Beside, just to know, why the hell would anyone write a story about Rokkenjima after it happened? Message bottle 1-2's existence... why were they written, according to you? Quote:
Still I do think that Ryuukishi hoped for "one reader out of a million" to go as far as his own level. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-01-12 at 20:00. |
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2012-01-12, 19:52 | Link #27010 | |
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However, pre-incident writing really only makes sense if Yasu planned for everyone to die, and that's because: It would be incredibly stupid if she tossed these stories out to sea and they all ended up surviving, being told of these stories, and being outraged, which would probably mean pretty serious consequences for her. That's my response to jjblue1 as well. |
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2012-01-12, 19:56 | Link #27011 |
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The problem is that no one even thought it was murder until the message bottles were found.
Originally the whole thing was accepted as an accident. The truth was already way obscured : no one had any idea what happened. Beside, when one writes a mystery fiction, they are making people attempting to solve it. |
2012-01-12, 20:02 | Link #27012 | ||
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And well, that's usually true, but this is Umineko. Quote:
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2012-01-12, 20:15 | Link #27013 | ||||
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Probably to indirectly (as Beatrice) take responsibility for the tragedy that she thought she caused. |
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2012-01-12, 20:27 | Link #27014 |
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See that's my problem: You accept she somehow miraculously planned on her message bottles being found (quite the prediction imo, considering the vital role you give to them being found) yet you are bothered with storm prediction/Ange's absence as something impossible to predict.
Alliance is not stupid if it wanted to make a point of exactly that. In the same arc that we're told almost right away that "Kinzo is already dead", we're then shown a story where he's the mastermind of the murders and a fantasy being himself. Eva ends up being an inverted Kinzo. We know one is dead, we know the other survived (in Ange's world), yet the story shown shows the dead one being alive and the surviving one being murdered. Btw to dwelve a bit deeper, I think Ange's role (for us reader) was to get information that we couldn't have gotten otherwise such as the mysterious letters sent to everyone. An additional role seems to be... well Will claimed he got the "why dunnit" thanks to arc 4, so I figure Ange's life is meant to parallel Yasu's life and thus by understanding one we understand the other. That's exactly the kind of things that are too convenient for Ryuukishi. Will, I think, understand that kind of allusion as well. It's not bad either, it becomes a part of the puzzle in itself. |
2012-01-12, 20:51 | Link #27015 | |
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The press wouldn't care, the police wouldn't care, the guy who found the message likely wouldn't bother warning the Ushiromiya about it so they would never know. Second even if the Ushiromiya were to be informed about such message they would have to connect the message to Shannon to be outraged. Nobody did and there was a murder involved and police checking writings. I doubt someone would do if the incident hadn't happened. Third the best they could do is to fire her. I'm not sure they can sue her because she wrote a tale about them and then she tossed it away. Yasu however can bribe them with money if she really want to stay. This assuming Yasu didn't plan to kill anyone, not even herself. If Yasu was planning to kill someone... well I think this would be a more serious matter that would call for more serious consequences than just a tale. |
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2012-01-12, 21:00 | Link #27016 | ||||
The True Culprit
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Basically, it's a bittersweet, romantic ending she wrote for Battler and Beatrice as a send-off; a thanks for their tale. I don't think it has any "truth" value except to demonstrate the depth of their love for each other. Quote:
You seem to keep disregarding that it was not the writer's intentions for readers to accept the message bottles as "true." Quote:
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2012-01-12, 21:14 | Link #27017 | |||
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However I think she stopped or was stopped before doing it, making her innocent. Sadly things like the message bottles or the letters that reached the relatives of the servants were already sent and, due to something that went wrong, the island really exploded and people died. In Ep 8 Battler said that Beato did nothing wrong in the world they were in. I think this means in the end Yasu definitely gave up on harming someone. There's plently of people that, in a moment of desperation think to do something crazy then realize what they're doing is wrong and stop themselves. If that's what happened to Yasu I understand how Battler could forgive her so easily and at the same time how she could feel guilty for setting up something that lead to the Rokkenjima incident. Quote:
However in EP 4 Ange apparently reached some sort of resolution so she doesn't seem so sure about dying. She does anyway though (after believing she had killed with magic the ones that wanted to kill her) but later the games imply she might not have died on Rokkenjima... I wonder if this can apply to Yasu as well. |
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2012-01-12, 21:32 | Link #27018 |
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I'm really not sure of the specifics of the idea it was written after, and I know AT's being a devil's advocate considering I at least think you don't accept the existence of prime either.
The point we're talking about I don't think implies on anyone's side to accept the content of the message bottles as true (since, the moment there are two versions anyway it becomes impossible...) but the overall concern is relating to the catbox. "Like in the stories, a storm happened, like in the stories, Ange didn't come home", "unlike in the stories, Eva survived". Tho miracles are miracles imo. It's also miraculous in many ways that "Yasu survived long enough to at least write the stories but was never found in any ways by the local authorities". Actually the same goes around Battler. You'd at least think that after everyone dies one thing the authorities would check up on are money transfer of anything belonging to any of the dead people. If I take AT's example, it's way too convenient that the same people who "discovered" the message bottles happened to have 10 million dollars transferred to their bank account from another account, related to the Ushiromiya, and that authorities completely overlooked that, as well as the story in every ways. It overall to me seems like just playing with the core problem and moving it away elsewhere. "Probabilities are rigged" I guess I can see it'd be easier to accept something like human incompetence, even on a massive scale, then storm prediction and whatnot. To me it's still pretty simple: Every arc = stories. Arc 3 ended with Eva still alive, and Ange from the future where Eva survived was introduced to us. The future of the story that is arc 3. Will has access to previous arcs in the form of stories. Beatrice in arc 6 also had that access. Battler in arc 5 before figuring out everything "went over everything again" seemingly hinting he also is also given access to previous arcs in at least a form where it's reviewable enough to look like a story. What's so different about Ange having access to them? |
2012-01-12, 21:32 | Link #27019 | |
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The two are nothing alike. Let us accept for a moment, for the sake of argument, that the bottles were written and released prior to the incident. The plausibility of them being found is irrelevant, as they actually were. Beatrice even accepts that they may not be. That they were is a narrative conceit to establish the story. We accept, for example, that a character survived a car crash that killed his family as a prologue to a story about that character coping with his grief. That it's unlikely that he would have survived the crash is not relevant. By contrast, getting certain details right (or wrong) in the message bottle is highly relevant, as it speaks to the amount of information available to the writer at the time of the writing. Which, we've established for argument's sake, is before the incident. Thus the knowledge that the storm would be as severe as it was or that Ange would not be present (or that Battler would) is a question we have to ask, because there's something narratively unsatisfying about the answer being "lucky guess." Yes, that means that "luck got the bottles to someone who would report them" and "luck allowed Yasu to correctly guess that Ange would be absent" are two different degrees of plausibility. There's not actually a contradiction here, however. Happenstance is more narratively acceptable when human agency is not involved. That's just how literature works. Also, why do you care? If you don't believe there is a Prime, then there was no message bottle and no one was affected by it anyway. It's nothing more than an epilogue or a plot device for the Ange fictions. Nothing is actually written in them. I think you're running away from confronting the argument that there are hints of an unobserved and potentially unobservable, but still relevant unifying factor by dismissing it outright. In particular, your point of view cheapens everything Beatrice does because none of it actually has any "real world" meaning to her; it only has meaning to Ryukishi, the actual author.
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2012-01-12, 22:20 | Link #27020 |
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Well, there are many things that have been on the story that makes you wonder how Yasu got to know about that. Ange not being on the island is one, the storm is another, there's also Battler's return. In addition, it'd seem she was also knowledgeable on Battler's parentage, given that the thing Rudolph wanted to tell Battler was there on EP1 (though, that might have been completely unrelated).
Of the 3, I think the storm could be potentially dismissed as it never actually having happened, but that everyone stayed on the island those 2 days because they were bribed. So, the storm would be only a fictional event. As for Ange not being in the island, I think there could be several possible theories about it. One I particularly like would be that Yasu, Rudolph and Kyrie were conniving. Yasu probably had a hand of Battler's return by promising money to Rudolph and Kyrie. And, since they were involved in the whole murder play, they probably decided to leave Ange home, since she was too young and she wasn't... special like Maria.
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