Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Destined_Fate]

There's no doubt that Kira was still closer to Flay(As well as going through a ton of emotions and guilt over her) and as we've seen with SEED dying down near the end that Kira didn't even promise to protect Lacus like he did with Flay and when Lacus wanted to kiss him he wouldn't allow it in the way she desired. As, after all, Flay was still alive and Kira was determined to get her back so that they both could sort out their feelings. Thus by allowing Lacus in he would be betraying Flay, whom he still loved deeply, and if he saved and got back together with Flay than he would be leading Lacus on which he didn't want to do either as he's a nice guy.

There's also the thing that Flay was Kira's first true love and crush. With how he distanced Lacus when Flay was still alive it's doubtful Lacus could have had a chance or if she would have even tried after seeing Kira embracing Flay again.

Lacus is many things but I'm sure if she saw that Kira did indeed still loved Flay and Flay showed that she had sorted her feelings and loved Kira too than Lacus wouldn't have gotten in the way of that. As she does love Kira and if Flay made Kira happy than Lacus wouldn't interfere.

-

I fully expect to see more scenes showing Shiho Hahnenfuss with Yzak even if she still says nothing.

[BladeEntity]

I just realised episode 13 was when Kira decided to become the stoic character he is. I finds the resolve to fight in order to protect, after the 2 years he finally is able to fully come to terms that sometimes in order to proctect something, he needs to fight. Its the same episode in which I think that their relationship actually is able to pass the barrier of guilt he lived under since the last war, or at least the first time we see him act like he is in a relationship. It was generally a great episode for his reintroduction.

[Destined_Fate]

Eh.

Kira still wasn't fully sorted out until he rejoins a real military like Orb after the Battle of Orb and when he resolves at the end of Destiny that it's also his responsibility to defend and fight for peace instead of just living in it and trying to ignore war when it ruins peace.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Which played a big role on whether Kira was going to pilot the Freedom again in the first place; the exact words Kira utters at the face of Lacus being reluctant to give him the keys was that he wouldn't be able to live if he didn't protect her; which all but say one thing: Kira was still emotionally out during episodes 8-12 of Destiny: This is also most probably was the reason why Kira was always in the Orb Memorial. The fact that Kira is acting desperately so that he won't lose another one, is proof enough to support this statement:

I think that it's the crux of Kira's character in Destiny; that he's obsessed with protecting his friends.

[Destined_Fate]

And that Kira suffers a lot of guilt and the death of Flay severely traumatized him all the way up to Destiny before he as finally able to move on from all that and look towards the future.

Remember that SEED didn't end as a happy ending for Kira.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by monster

Of course people have a chance to make up, but Kira never expressed anything other than his guilt over hurting her and needing to protect her. Even after Flay's death, Kira never even hinted that he regretted not being able to say that he actually loved her or anything along that line. Instead, he was only saddened that Flay had to die and that he couldn't protect her.

Yet we have him going berserk after Rau killed Fllay in front of his eyes.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Honestly, aeriole, monster is arguing with what the characters actually said and what actually happened. Meanwhile, your arguments contain the word “probably” which didn’t do a favor to strengthen your points . Also, the words “the fact that...” and “probably” can rarely match in one sentence.

It still remains a fact and ignored by those who say Fllay wasn't loved by Kira was that Kira had already liked her a GREAT deal even before he had even met Lacus.

Even his friends knew that. By golly, we even have Ssigh point out the obvious to Fllay. Then we have Cagalli who also said that to Lacus aboard the Eternal. How much more proof do you guys need to acknowledge that the love was there?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

It still remains a fact and ignored by those who say Fllay wasn't loved by Kira was that Kira had already liked her a GREAT deal even before he had even met Lacus.

Even his friends knew that. By golly, we even have Ssigh point out the obvious to Fllay. Then we have Cagalli who also said that to Lacus aboard the Eternal. How much more proof do you guys need to acknowledge that the love was there?

Clearly I was just an observer when I said that. I’m no Team Kiracus (or any team for that matter). What I saw is that monster’s arguments are more clear-cut compared to aeriole’s using ambiguous expression like “probably” etc. So please don’t bring this “Fllay vs Lacus” war to me. I’m tired of these cyclical debates.

By all means, you can continue this argument till kingdom come, while I'm enjoying my beautiful life :P.

[aeriolewinters]

Clearly I was just an observer when I said that. I’m no Team Kiracus (or any team for that matter). What I saw is that monster’s arguments are more clear-cut compared to aeriole’s using ambiguous expression like “probably” etc. So please don’t bring this “Fllay vs Lacus” war to me. I’m tired of these cyclical debates.

Well you don't realize that the claims monstert has are empty because we've watched the same scene that he claims in which Kira says that Fllay was someone she hurt and that his guilt is encompassing his love for her. when in the same scene, Kira was almost throwing away his life just to save her, using the words: She's someone I MUST protect.

and about the other side? Fllay almost had a moment of Joy when she heard Kira in the radio. She was ready to be by his side, but sadly, Athrun 'somehow' disagrees with Kira's urge to save her. and forcibly pulls him back.

Athrun 'somehow' disagrees with Kira's urge to save her. and forcibly pulls him back.

speaking of which... This guy, is the same guy in GSD who lamented about being with Lacus again (it showed with his interactions with Meer), he had his only chance to go back to Lacus. And somehow ends up neutering his own relationship with her by triggering what would lead to him losing Lacus to Kira. Again, Athrun...is kind of...confused really. He obviously really cares about Lacus, but he doesn't follow through.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Clearly I was just an observer when I said that. I’m no Team Kiracus (or any team for that matter). What I saw is that monster’s arguments are more clear-cut compared to aeriole’s using ambiguous expression like “probably” etc. So please don’t bring this “Fllay vs Lacus” war to me. I’m tired of these cyclical debates.

By all means, you can continue this argument till kingdom come, while I'm enjoying my beautiful life :P.

Huh, what?

What's so clear cut about monster's observation?

He's talking about emotional baggage? Yeah, well, Fllay has that, she DID manipulate him because of HER feelings about making Kira pay, but then even after all that she was shown to actually start to care for him for real. This was pretty evident already when she thought Kira had died, and was also pretty evident when she learned he was alive.

[Rising Dragon]

I think the most problematic issue of this debate as it stands is that on one side, being for it is mostly a matter of speculation of what could happen, and on the other side, the main person arguing seems unable to accept any kind of change to the canon depiction of the series, so this debate is going to go nowhere pretty quickly.

[Destined_Fate]

It went nowhere from the start.

Still entertaining to speculate. Though I honestly don't see how anyone can think Kira still didn't love Flay, especially with his desperation to get her back near the end of SEED and how devastated he was when he failed.

Sure other people had died on his watch but he never went full BSOD mode like he did with Flay and he even broke his no kill rule against Rau after this... Though when he fought against Rau right after he nearly died because he was fighting with just pure emotion which says a lot.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Yet we have him going berserk after Rau killed Fllay in front of his eyes.

No, duh, that doesn't mean he's in love with her. No one's denying that he cared for her.

It still remains a fact and ignored by those who say Fllay wasn't loved by Kira was that Kira had already liked her a GREAT deal even before he had even met Lacus.

He had a crush on her in the beginning, sure. But we're talking at the end of SEED here.

Even his friends knew that. By golly, we even have Ssigh point out the obvious to Fllay.

What? That Flay grew to have feelings for Kira? I'm not denying that.

Then we have Cagalli who also said that to Lacus aboard the Eternal. How much more proof do you guys need to acknowledge that the love was there?

Are you sure it was to Lacus and not to Athrun? But, it doesn't matter anyway because Cagalli only knows what she saw of their previous relationship.

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Well you don't realize that the claims monstert has are empty because we've watched the same scene that he claims in which Kira says that Fllay was someone she hurt and that his guilt is encompassing his love for her. when in the same scene, Kira was almost throwing away his life just to save her, using the words: She's someone I MUST protect..

Again, caring and feeling responsible for Flay doesn't mean Kira's in love with her at that point.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

He's talking about emotional baggage? Yeah, well, Fllay has that, she DID manipulate him because of HER feelings about making Kira pay, but then even after all that she was shown to actually start to care for him for real. This was pretty evident already when she thought Kira had died, and was also pretty evident when she learned he was alive.

So?

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Though I honestly don't see how anyone can think Kira still didn't love Flay, especially with his desperation to get her back near the end of SEED and how devastated he was when he failed.

Why do some people think that only romantic love could produce such strong reaction?

Sure other people had died on his watch but he never went full BSOD mode like he did with Flay and he even broke his no kill rule against Rau after this... Though when he fought against Rau right after he nearly died because he was fighting with just pure emotion which says a lot.

Kira was also like that after Tolle's death.

[aeriolewinters]

Why do some people think that only romantic love could produce such strong reaction?

Because it is romantic love, a tragic one if you ask me. When Kira realized that Fllay was in the pod, his initial reaction was fear, leading to desperation. He screamed her name, almost in agony. and even though he said that she was someone that he hurt: the real issue is how he hurt her. and most likely that statement alludes to how he abruptly ended their relationship without really thinking into it. That's why it was agonizing for him.

On the other side of the coin, Fllay was happy that Kira was alive, she would also scream his name in Agony, and would later reveal to Natarle (great acting by Kuwashima in this scene btw) that she's ready to set things straight with him.

Everything was set up for them to reconcile. I find it laughable to think otherwise, because really, the only reason for Fllay's death is to validate the relationship with Lacus, which is obviously forced, just look at how Lacus throws herself into Kira, while Kira grieves about Fllay. And please explain why Kira's anxiety already has him hallucinating that Lacus was Fllay?

Kira was also like that after Tolle's death.

The point is, Kira broke his vow not to Kill. It was a boiling point like no other.


Please, his feelings for Fllay are stronger. It has been proven that Kira rejoins the war because he doesn't want Lacus to join Fllay in the afterlife. It's the same way with Emily, Flit and Yurin.

No, duh, that doesn't mean he's in love with her. No one's denying that he cared for her.

A mere technicality, It also means it's better for Kira to care than to love, really... because the same situation was entered during Destiny, ep 39, that had Kira...be prodded by Athrun just to save Lacus... I mean, man such passion. ugh. I mean Lacus was going "I'll just leave the pods if we go down...don't worry about me dying". If Kira had any passion left in him, he would've got on the Strike without Athrun's 'advice'.

It also becomes clear that you, monstert are not really a fan of the couple, to go as far as discredit the feelings between them. Stop pretending.

[S.Freedom]

Out of curiousity who are you to say Kira's feelings for Flay where stronger than those for Tolle?

How can you be so sure he wouldn't have chucked his no kill rule if Rau had killed Tolle instead?

Not to mention he easily had no qualms about killing Stella in Destiny.

I'm all for Kira and Flay resolving their issue's. Perhaps even going so far as becoming good friends. But I have trouble seeing them moving beyond that.

Ok, I think you have a problem here aeriolewinters. Monster has said that while he's a fan of the pairing, he hasn't allowed his preference to cloud what the show has given us in terms of evidence. You on the other hand seem to be twisting everything you can to prove the pairing you ship. For example, I can say I'm a AthrunxMeer shipper/fan. However Destiny gives no evidence that Athrun gives two sh!ts about Meer other than as another human being. That doesn't automatically make me not a fan of the pairing. It just means I'm realistic about the chances of them getting together.

[BladeEntity]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Because it is romantic love, a tragic one if you ask me. When Kira realized that Fllay was in the pod, his initial reaction was fear, leading to desperation. He screamed her name, almost in agony. and even though he said that she was someone that he hurt: the real issue is how he hurt her. and most likely that statement alludes to how he abruptly ended their relationship without really thinking into it. That's why it was agonizing for him.

I agree it alludes to the fact that he hurt her by breaking up with her, It validates my point that Kira thought her hurt her by breaking up with her from this you can infer that Kira didn't know that he was being manipulated.

Secondly, the time in which he breaks up with her is after the time spent in orb and we are shown that during this time he becomes closer to Cagali, which may mean that he may have found himself attracted to Cagali so he would have reaccessed his feelings and found that he was in fact using Fllay to get over his inability to protect the little girl on the shuttle.

On the other side of the coin, Fllay was happy that Kira was alive, she would also scream his name in Agony, and would later reveal to Natarle (great acting by Kuwashima in this scene btw) that she's ready to set things straight with him.

No one disputes that Fllay had actual feelings for Kira.

Everything was set up for them to reconcile. I find it laughable to think otherwise, because really, the only reason for Fllay's death is to validate the relationship with Lacus, which is obviously forced, just look at how Lacus throws herself into Kira, while Kira grieves about Fllay. And please explain why Kira's anxiety already has him hallucinating that Lacus was Fllay?

Look at how Fllay throws herself at Kira in the desert on the deck of the AA when he was with Cagali. The former more stronger than the later but heh to each his own.

Forced or expected from the very first OP of SEED, in most Gundam series, first girl kind of always gets the short end of the stick.

The circumstances in which Kira hallucinates need to be considered. On top of Fllay being taken, Rau's revelations are a more prevalent worry in his mind, other than that hallucination, from what we are shown he is more worried about being the ultimate coordinator as he discusses it with Lacus after he has calmed down. In retrospect his complex of being a protector is definitely amplified when faced with the truth of his origin. In order to once again remove the insecurities of his apparent inhumanity he becomes more desperate to save Fllay.

The point is, Kira broke his vow not to Kill. It was a boiling point like no other.

At no point does he say that he vows not to kill anyone. He fights in a way that limits the number of casualties and Rau's skill as a pilot makes it harder for him to fight like he normaly would.

Please, his feelings for Fllay are stronger. It has been proven that Kira rejoins the war because he doesn't want Lacus to join Fllay in the afterlife. It's the same way with Emily, Flit and Yurin.

In terms of romantic feelings its impossible to tell, but in terms of the feeling of needing to protect Fllay it would be stronger in SEED.

Emily Flit and Yurin are apart of a gundam series, and the death flag was already there from the start especially after you see how Asemu looks like.

Word of God did say that Kira liked neither at the end of SEED. If you interpret Kira's actions without biased, its actually believable.

[Rising Dragon]

Word of God. It's hard to trust the Word of God here when it flip-flops so damn much and when its contents does not match up with what we're shown or given.

[aeriolewinters]

Word of God. It's hard to trust the Word of God here when it flip-flops so damn much and when its contents does not match up with what we're shown or given.

Not to mention that there's something in stake for the Author's wife and scriptwriter to go forth with her self-insert.

Word of God did say that Kira liked neither at the end of SEED. If you interpret Kira's actions without biased, its actually believable.

So you really believe mwu survived because he wasn't a fortress?

I think you have a problem here aeriolewinters. Monster has said that while he's a fan of the pairing, he hasn't allowed his preference to cloud what the show has given us in terms of evidence.

Because monstert has always been a whiteknight to Lacus. If you've been around for as long as I've been in animesuki. I assure you that he's never supported the pairing. Kindly look at the other threads that Fllay has been mentioned at. Even at the point of a completely what-if scenario, he disapproves of it.

[Destined_Fate]

Whether you believe Lacus x Kira would have survived or not had Flay lived is up to you as that could depend on what Kira and Flay say to each other after they're reunited. What cannot be disputed is that Kira still very much loved Flay up into her death and even after despite him moving on with Lacus who he did eventually grow to love just as much, if not more than, with Flay even if Flay will always remain his first one true love.

[Skye629]

Im amazed how you guys can keep this debate clear of a single swearword or some sort of discriminatory name calling

Keep going as you were

[Rising Dragon]

I'm surprised its going at all. These days even a single mention of shipping can get the whole thread locked down.