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Old 2017-09-09, 08:23   Link #521
Tenzen12
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If two characters work well as close friends/partners it means they got everything right to became good lovers. People who can't work well as friends/partners wouldn't make good lovers either.

Well, I myself am fine with her dying as long as it will not turn to be means for Chamille and Ikta getting together. You are saying it's not that case, but until end of novel (or death of one of them) that's not given. Until then you are just forcing you opinion without any basis here.
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Old 2017-09-09, 08:51   Link #522
Zefyris
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
If two characters work well as close friends/partners it means they got everything right to became good lovers. People who can't work well as friends/partners wouldn't make good lovers either.

Well, I myself am fine with her dying as long as it will not turn to be means for Chamille and Ikta getting together. You are saying it's not that case, but until end of novel (or death of one of them) that's not given. Until then you are just forcing you opinion without any basis here.
On what criteria does it makes good lover? Is your best friend with who you work well and are close a good lover target as well? Just because you work well as a partner is not enough, and changing the sex isn't going to help that much either. But that's not the subject here anyway, as the one forcing their opinion are peoples saying Yatori died to put chamille and ikta together. As I pointed out, the current situation tells otherwise, so until they end up together, insisting it's the case is nothing more but forcing your opinion. Because RIGHT NOW, everything we currently have support my opinion, and not their. And because that would be an extremely cheap reason to kill a character when there are far better reasons right under our nose, and that those very reasons have already started being used since several volumes. Or are we going to deny those events in the late volumes just because "omg maybe they will end up together in 10 volumes".
Tell you what, even if that was the case, that wouldn't change even a slight bit about everything Yatori's death brought to the table for both characters and plot.
Stop denying peoples' argument as being "forcing an opinion" when everything we've read support it rather than supporting the other interpretation.
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Old 2017-09-09, 10:07   Link #523
Tenzen12
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I don't insist on anything. If you read my post properly you would notice that I say both is on table. And yes I do agree it would be cheap that's my issue with it. Killing Ikta in the end would be probably best for story. Getting him hooked with Suya and retire in the end would be fine too, noone would suspect Yatori was killed for her. But again problem still is that possibility is on table, no matter how much you dismiss it.
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Old 2017-09-10, 12:06   Link #524
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I still ship Chamille and Ikta being a couple.
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Old 2017-10-07, 17:17   Link #525
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Leaving this here. Next volume coming out on december 10.

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Old 2017-10-08, 09:13   Link #526
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If Chamille and Ikta ever wed, it will cause major issues.
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Old 2017-10-08, 20:21   Link #527
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I'm starting to think that Chamille might be the real villain...
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Old 2017-10-08, 21:51   Link #528
Ruki0089
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I really doubt this series will have happy ending...
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Old 2017-10-10, 04:55   Link #529
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"Victory comes at a cost".
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Old 2017-11-23, 14:37   Link #530
deus-misereatur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zefyris View Post
All the knights know about her. The only one among the early main characters who don't know are Sazaref and Chamille. They're still good friends.


BTW I don't get the hate for Chamille, she's pretty much the best developed character in this series together with Haro, Ikta being close behind those two right now, followed by Matthew.
Meanwhile, Yatori was pretty much the most bland and less developed character among the main characters, together with Torway, so I don't see why anyone is annoyed. Note that I'm not talking about who I like the most and such. I can understand why peoples like a character and dislike another, but Yatori was pretty much a Mary Sue until half of volume 7. YAtori never really brought anything to that story, popular or not. On top of this she was kind of blocking the development of several other characters by just being here.

The series would have lost so much in quality if Haro or Chamille died instead of Yatori.

I do believe that killing Yatori was the best way to have that story progressing while keeping its quality.

...Or are all those peoples angry about yatori and Chamille just reading spoilers and not actually reading the novels?
Absolutely agree! Yatori was too much of a Mary Sue, at least the way I saw it. Perhaps her greatest flaw was that she was just too much of a LN character. In the gritty, realistic world of Alderamin, she just stands out too much. But she was (IS) popular, so I was fairly impressed that Uno Bokuto would be so willing to off her to progress the novel.
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Old 2017-11-23, 15:23   Link #531
Tenzen12
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She was perfect soldier, but flawed human trapped in duties and responsibilities. That's called tragic hero, not Marry Sue. Honestly Ikta has much closer to Sue than Yatori. Chamille too might be pretty close.
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Old 2017-11-23, 23:41   Link #532
deus-misereatur
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Flawed?

The biggest issue she had going on with her character arc was her conflicting loyalty between her family and the Empire. Not much to go on, methinks, since its neither unique nor in depth to soldier Yatori. Of course, she has her other tropey characteristics like how she's a human weapon, how everyone BUT Ikta is afraid of her, etc. but all that just reinforces the idea that she's a LN character, at least in my view. And a tragic hero can still be a Mary Sue.

Ikta? He accomplishes *impossible* things, true, but well-justified enough that it doesn't seem out of place or that the author had to a**pull and rely on some mysterious Sueish powers (Yatori's superpowered rampage certainly comes to mind) to get Ikta to save the day.

And Chamille? She is the furthest away from a Mary Sue as can be. Maybe we have too different a definition of a Mary Sue, methinks.

From fanlore,
(edited) A character may be judged Mary Sue if she is competent in too many areas wrg, is physically attractive, and/or is viewed as admirable by other sympathetic characters.

How is Chamille ever viewed in a more positive light than Yatori ever was? Even her competence is currently limited only to the realm of politics (and even than, that may backfire at times - remember her initial attempts at manipulating Ikta?) - Yatori still remains a larger motivating factor than Chamille for Ikta, for all her 'flaws' and, in my opinion, in spite of, all her stupid decisions that ultimately led to her death.
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Old 2017-11-24, 02:54   Link #533
Tenzen12
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Then let me ask you. What did Yatori accomplished? How many named characters were dedicated to her?

Yatori never had any of her wishes fulfilled, much less being embodiment wishes of author or anyone else. Was she admired? Sure, for good reasons, but she was never fawned or idealised by others. She may be correct but she was never "right" and story heavily empathised that. MSs are opposite of Yatori, they are always right even if they are not and story itself make sure accommodate them to make it happen. That makes Ikta and Chamille much closer to MS

Also you say "stupid" decision, but that's not really case. Her choices were always in line with her being Igsem. As long as she were one, there weren't any alternatives.
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Last edited by Tenzen12; 2017-11-24 at 03:07.
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Old 2017-11-24, 05:04   Link #534
deus-misereatur
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Then let me ask you. What did Yatori accomplished? How many named characters were dedicated to her?
Err, well, I'm pretty sure up to the point of her face heel turn all her comrades (including Ikta, ESPECIALLY Ikta) pretty much prefer her more than, say, Chamille.

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Yatori never had any of her wishes fulfilled, much less being embodiment wishes of author or anyone else. Was she admired? Sure, for good reasons, but she was never fawned or idealised by others. She may be correct but she was never "right" and story heavily empathised that. MSs are opposite of Yatori, they are always right even if they are not and story itself make sure accommodate them to make it happen. That makes Ikta and Chamille much closer to MS
As for how you defined MS, I agree up to a point. Like you said, a MS tends to be right (not always, mind you) regardless of circumstance, effort, or logical justification. How the MS accomplishes what they set out to accomplish is hand-waved away by the author who expects the audience to just accept it.

This is clearly not the case for both Ikta and Chamille, who follow up on their decisions despite the resistance they face from their fellow friends, comrades, etc., whilst being aware, yet disregarding, of the sacrifices necessary for their decisions, and whose actions shall only be deemed right from their (and the audience, but I contend that MS should only be judged from the perspective of a person of the universe the MS is in, otherwise all heroes are MS by definition) point of view. In general, MS tend to exemplify traits and tropes from the first, with an occasional smattering of the second, while almost nothing from the third of the points I noted above.

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Also you say "stupid" decision, but that's not really case. Her choices were always in line with her being Igsem. As long as she were one, there weren't any alternatives.
As for your last point, I was actually sorely tempted to use the word retarded, but I was afraid that that might offend people with greater sensibilities, showing just how much I rate the rationality of that decision (on par, if I might, with Uzumi Nara Atha's - of Gundam Seed's fame - decision to die with every last decent politician of ORB and subsequently have his young, inexperienced daughter try to navigate the murky realm of politics with nary a supporter, but that's a story for another day). If anything, if her 'vaunted' character development was actually, you know, vaunted, she might have made a different decision. Alas, all we had to get on with was a relatively static character who was subsequently unceremoniously killed.

To be fair, I think Uno Bokuto's decision to off her was somewhat made for the shock value in an attempt to distinguish himself from contemporary war-driven light novels like Youjo Senki, or Altina the Sword Princess. And I personally don't think he'll keep her out for the rest of the novel. Color me surprised if we don't get a resurrection arc + an Evil!MindControl!Amnesia!Yatori arc somewhere in the making. That said, I still think that her (current? temporary?) death was warranted enough that it shouldn't detract from the story, but rather enhance it.

And if there is a revival scene later, I just hope that Yatori comes back as a more intriguing character rather than her current 2d-state.

Last edited by deus-misereatur; 2017-11-24 at 05:05. Reason: Typo
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Old 2017-11-24, 06:16   Link #535
Tenzen12
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- There were no"face heel turn" Yatori loyalty never lied with Ikta and co. foremost. At most you can say she was heel all along. And all comrades did side with Ikta to stop her. Noone went "Yatori is so awesome. I have to join her and her family"

- Yes they do face opposition, but people who disagree are usually "bad guys"... or wrong. Mind you I never said these two actually are MS, just that they are much closer than Yatori who was from very beginning portraits as someone who has no room for free will.


- Being static was point. She was interesting because she was static. That was her fatal flaw and big part what drove Ikta to be dynamic. She would need change to ever obtain happiness, but you can't do that as corpse.

- Depending on author intents, killing Yatori might turn be terrible decision, with random resuscitation arc be only possible development that could be actually worse. Even if Uno might mess story badly I doubt he would go that far.
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Old 2017-11-24, 07:22   Link #536
deus-misereatur
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
- There were no"face heel turn" Yatori loyalty never lied with Ikta and co. foremost. At most you can say she was heel all along. And all comrades did side with Ikta to stop her. Noone went "Yatori is so awesome. I have to join her and her family"
I concede your first point. True enough, one can argue that she was the heel all along. As for your second point, well, unless you're an Igsem, I doubt any would. There's simply no merit to doing so, especially since, as the 1st volume showed us, among them are some of are genuinely patriotic and loyal to the Empire.

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- Yes they do face opposition, but people who disagree are usually "bad guys"... or wrong. Mind you I never said these two actually are MS, just that they are much closer than Yatori who was from very beginning portraits as someone who has no room for free will.
And I'm trying to explain to you why I think that couldn't be further from the case. See, while disagreeing with the protagonists tend to make you an antagonist (not necessarily right or wrong), disagreeing with Ikta, who the novel has shown to have rationale and justification for his thoughts, or Chamille, with her first hand observation and experience of the slow decay of the Royal Family, may quite rightly be in the wrong. With such established reasons as to why these two are doing what they think to be right, calling them almostMS is just as bad as calling every LN protagonist an almost MS as well.

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- Being static was point. She was interesting because she was static. That was her fatal flaw and big part what drove Ikta to be dynamic. She would need change to ever obtain happiness, but you can't do that as corpse.
Of all that you brought up, this, to me is the most puzzling. Just to be clear, I define static in character as unchanging in development. What Static Person A was in Volume I is still what Static Person A will be in Volume X. Can you run through me as to why this would make a character in a LN with characters that develop steadily and assuredly interesting? At best, she'll stand out like a sore thumb, a character without any growth, with no visible changes, wholly predictable in nature and behavior. At worst, she becomes a mockery of a character, inorganic and existing solely as a plot point when all others around her develop into perfectly relatable characters. How again does this make her interesting?

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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
- Depending on author intents, killing Yatori might turn be terrible decision, with random resuscitation arc be only possible development that could be actually worse. Even if Uno might mess story badly I doubt he would go that far.
I can't say really whether Alderamin might suffer from the offing of Yatori. Personally, I felt that the anime did more damage than anything else to the brand name. Did you watch it? Did you like it?
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Old 2017-11-24, 07:57   Link #537
Tenzen12
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You are mistaking static characters with simple ones. That's not necessarily true. At some point all characters reach their "final form" as they mature. At that point they know what they are doing and why. Because they may be predictable at times (but hardly always) they can be depended on. They can act as anchor in chaotic world yet often show new facet you didn't know despite being there all along.

Using immature protagonists is usual way for stories targeting teenagers as they are "incomplete" and inexperienced themselves, but it's neither only nor necessarily best way to write characters in general.
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Old 2017-11-24, 08:51   Link #538
deus-misereatur
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You are mistaking static characters with simple ones. That's not necessarily true. At some point all characters reach their "final form" as they mature. At that point they know what they are doing and why. Because they may be predictable at times (but hardly always) they can be depended on. They can act as anchor in chaotic world yet often show new facet you didn't know despite being there all along.
Er, static and simple are very different. As mentioned in the above post, static characters are literally static, that is, no change or growth or progress. What would you define static characters to be?

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Using immature protagonists is usual way for stories targeting teenagers as they are "incomplete" and inexperienced themselves, but it's neither only nor necessarily best way to write characters in general.
Developing characters are hardly limited to immature protagonists. Any character (mature or not - I'm taking your use of the word 'immature' literally, so correct me if I'm wrong) that is part of a story should have something to gain or change at the end of the story. Otherwise, what is the point of the story?

Also, even 'adult' (I take umbrage at the fact that you seem to think that age or maturity is a determining factor as to whether the reader 'gets' a character or not - a poorly written character that undergoes no growth whatsoever is still a poorly written character, whether (s)he be read by a teenager or an adult) stories have characters that undergo proper development - surely you can't deny that the main characters of LotR or even the GoT series are (a) characters that undergo growth, and (b) characters that appeal to far more than just 'teenagers'.

As a side note, can you name me more stories that utilizes the 'static' character as you put it as its protagonist? I'm interested to see how such a story might retain its entertainment value when the character the story is revolves around simply does not change and/or progress as how a normal human would.
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Old 2017-11-25, 07:44   Link #539
tuckersister
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How is Ikta's relationship with Haro after finding out she's a spy and has a split personality?
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Old 2017-11-25, 15:34   Link #540
Tenzen12
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Let's see. Few good examples of "finished" characters, huh. Here is few.

Kamijou Touma
Aoki Yoshifume
Granny Weatherwax
Peter Pan
Gandalf (change of colour scheme doesn't count)
Kazuma the Shell Bullet.
Gerhardt von Waldstein
Flat Escardos
Aslan
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