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Old 2016-10-02, 10:18   Link #61
Triple_R
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@MeoTwister5 - I think you're going too far in glossing over very real differences between Koyuki's characterization and what was true for anybody in Madoka Magica. I've clearly pointed out some important distinctions here, and you seem to be just choosing to ignore them, which I find pretty disappointing. I also think you're misjudging why some of us are watching this show, and why some of us enjoyed Madoka Magica's ending - schadenfreude had absolutely nothing to do with it, in my view. Furthermore, I would consider Madoka Magica's ending as one that vindicates the ideals of magical girls.

And regardless of what's true for your real life, and the culture where you live, what we have in Souta here is very distinct within the world of anime, and I think this is something worth appreciating.

On the whole, I dislike the strong vibe of negativity and pessimism that I see coming from your posts on this thread, given that I feel that's very unwarranted given where this show currently stands after just one episode. I think this show should be a given a real chance to craft its own identity before people like you come down so heavy on Madoka Magica comparisons. There's already plenty of ways that this show is different from Madoka Magica.
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Old 2016-10-02, 10:31   Link #62
Zefyris
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Errr do you realize how much difference there is already in the first episode? (the following list may contain vague spoilers about madomagi)

-In Mahoiku, magical girls' role is to help peoples when they're in trouble. no monsters/invaders/witches whatever to protect the humanity from secretly. This means that you won't see dramatic fights to the deaths with monstruous witches or whatever here. This also leads to several other big differences below. They collect magical candy by doing so.
-In Mahoiku, magical girls are actually interacting with normal peoples, that's even the bread and butter of their activity, since it's helping them.
-In Mahoiku, some magical girls don't even have combat oriented powers. It's logical since they're not made to fight to begin with. And in particular, the main character's power isn't a weapon or anything. This heavily different from Madomagi once again, as we're not going to get some kind of plot twist about how powerful in combat she is or whatever.
-In Mahoiku, since there is no such monster to fight you can have an important story point about what are those monsters.

And you can also adds other stuff.

-In Mahoiku, the MC choose to become a magical girl right away. In madomagi convincing the MC who wasn't able to take a decision for so long was a HUGE part of the story telling. in Mahoiku, it represents nothing.
-In mahoiku, there is no gem used for their power. Obviously there's not going to be any plot twist about the gem and no drama resulting from it.
-In mahoiku, there is no tempting wish to be fulfilled. They just became one by accepting the proposition as they were playing a game, and then enjoy their life as magical girl without having any dark monster to fight in compensation for gaining those powers.

This above by itself is enough to say that 99% of the plot IS DIFFERENT. None of the main plot twist of Madomagi can happen here, and most of the CONTENT (fighting monsters, trying to convince madoka or to convince her to not become one, those plot twists and the reaction from various characters about it, the WISH, and so on) of madomagi's episodes themselves cannot happen either.

You can add a variety of content being quite different as well, like
-a boy becoming a magical girl
-most magical girls of the show being in contact with each other and in a peaceful (or even up to cooperation) relationship, joining up to chat happily between them. In madomagi's world, that shit AINT happening. The girls around Madoka are but an exception to this, and they're not magical girls at the beginning of the show. That's another difference btw. They aren't becoming magical girls, they already are. which leads to
-Madomagi is about characters becoming magical girls and some acting to make them/stop them to become magical girls, whereas Mahoiku is about girls who already are magical girls and are told they're not gonna be magical girls anymore.


Really, it's like saying Mahoiku is like SAO because in both case a video game changed the life of all the characters, or something.
I even saw peoples saying it's a rip off of MAdomagi, get your facts straight. in one episode you can already list so much huge differences both in plot, initial setting and content.
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Old 2016-10-02, 10:35   Link #63
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
@MeoTwister5 - I think you're going too far in glossing over very real differences between Koyuki's characterization and what was true for anybody in Madoka Magica. I've clearly pointed out some important distinctions here, and you seem to be just choosing to ignore them, which I find pretty disappointing. I also think you're misjudging why some of us are watching this show, and why some of us enjoyed Madoka Magica's ending - schadenfreude had absolutely nothing to do with it, in my view. Furthermore, I would consider Madoka Magica's ending as one that vindicates the ideals of magical girls.

And regardless of what's true for your real life, and the culture where you live, what we have in Souta here is very distinct within the world of anime, and I think this is something worth appreciating.

On the whole, I dislike the strong vibe of negativity and pessimism that I see coming from your posts on this thread, given that I feel that's very unwarranted given where this show currently stands after just one episode. I think this show should be a given a real chance to craft its own identity before people like you come down so heavy on Madoka Magica comparisons. There's already plenty of ways that this show is different from Madoka Magica.
All I'm saying is that at least for the pilot episodes I'm finding the similarities just a tad bit too... well similar, and perhaps somewhat safe. My point is that I feel there's this very distinct possibility that the show may follow that established formula, or it may not. I hope to be proven wrong because it's obviously just the pilot and there's a whole lot of room to maneuver.

It's not that I'm ignoring your point, but more like I can't really appreciate them as of this time. Maybe I will as the show progresses.

I reckon it's just my own personal bias which, again, I attribute to my personal purist and perhaps jaded view of the genre who again has a love-hate relationship with this approach, so you may take that as you will. I think it's kind of obvious that I'm looking at this from a very different and biased perspective that I cannot put aside for better or for worse.

The shadenfreude comment wasn't aimed at any particular person or as a generalization of sorts. I know of people who felt like it watching that series and I personally felt it as well, so I assume that will be those who feel some sort of unexpected twisted joy when Mami and the genre got flipped over its head (pun intended). I mentioned it because it was particularly that feeling that made we appreciate the show and how it elicited that emotion watching the genre get taken for a ride I never expected it to take.
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Old 2016-10-02, 11:09   Link #64
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Zefyris View Post
Errr do you realize how much difference there is already in the first episode? (the following list may contain vague spoilers about madomagi)

-In Mahoiku, magical girls' role is to help peoples when they're in trouble. no monsters/invaders/witches whatever to protect the humanity from secretly. This means that you won't see dramatic fights to the deaths with monstruous witches or whatever here. This also leads to several other big differences below. They collect magical candy by doing so.
-In Mahoiku, magical girls are actually interacting with normal peoples, that's even the bread and butter of their activity, since it's helping them.
-In Mahoiku, some magical girls don't even have combat oriented powers. It's logical since they're not made to fight to begin with. And in particular, the main character's power isn't a weapon or anything. This heavily different from Madomagi once again, as we're not going to get some kind of plot twist about how powerful in combat she is or whatever.
-In Mahoiku, since there is no such monster to fight you can have an important story point about what are those monsters.

And you can also adds other stuff.

-In Mahoiku, the MC choose to become a magical girl right away. In madomagi convincing the MC who wasn't able to take a decision for so long was a HUGE part of the story telling. in Mahoiku, it represents nothing.
-In mahoiku, there is no gem used for their power. Obviously there's not going to be any plot twist about the gem and no drama resulting from it.
-In mahoiku, there is no tempting wish to be fulfilled. They just became one by accepting the proposition as they were playing a game, and then enjoy their life as magical girl without having any dark monster to fight in compensation for gaining those powers.

This above by itself is enough to say that 99% of the plot IS DIFFERENT. None of the main plot twist of Madomagi can happen here, and most of the CONTENT (fighting monsters, trying to convince madoka or to convince her to not become one, those plot twists and the reaction from various characters about it, the WISH, and so on) of madomagi's episodes themselves cannot happen either.

You can add a variety of content being quite different as well, like
-a boy becoming a magical girl
-most magical girls of the show being in contact with each other and in a peaceful (or even up to cooperation) relationship, joining up to chat happily between them. In madomagi's world, that shit AINT happening. The girls around Madoka are but an exception to this, and they're not magical girls at the beginning of the show. That's another difference btw. They aren't becoming magical girls, they already are. which leads to
-Madomagi is about characters becoming magical girls and some acting to make them/stop them to become magical girls, whereas Mahoiku is about girls who already are magical girls and are told they're not gonna be magical girls anymore.


Really, it's like saying Mahoiku is like SAO because in both case a video game changed the life of all the characters, or something.
I even saw peoples saying it's a rip off of MAdomagi, get your facts straight. in one episode you can already list so much huge differences both in plot, initial setting and content.
I'll grant that all of those differences are there, but they're what I'd call implementation details. Whether they "matter" is subjective, dependent on what you look for to say two series are similar.

It's not my intention to accuse Mahoiku of plagiarism. But I can't deny seeing some similarities with Madoka either. They're both stories about surprise deals with the devil, power and the price thereof, possibly loss of humanity... wrapped in a story of magical girls. That makes me question if it isn't maybe too dark for me, just like Madoka was at times.
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Old 2016-10-02, 11:13   Link #65
Zefyris
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'll grant that all of those differences are there, but they're what I'd call implementation details. Whether they "matter" is subjective, dependent on what you look for to say two series are similar.

It's not my intention to accuse Mahoiku of plagiarism. But I can't deny seeing some similarities with Madoka either. They're both stories about surprise deals with the devil, power and the price thereof, possibly loss of humanity... wrapped in a story of magical girls. That makes me question if it isn't maybe too dark for me, just like Madoka was at times.
What I wrote here is basically what was madomagi's whole plot and content and I denied it being here in Mahoiku.

Who is bothering about detail right now. Those who keep nagging at mere small part of the story being similar, or those who point that 90% of the content is completely different?
Also where did you see any loss of humanity in mahoiku? And there's no contract with devil either. No one is asking for wishes and asking payment in return. No price for the power as well, as we saw.
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Old 2016-10-02, 11:21   Link #66
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Oh. I've got an unpleasant thought.

This is what LL:S would have been, if you were to change idols into magical girls and delve into the dark side of that world.

Aside from that, I don't have much to say until later episodes come out.
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Old 2016-10-02, 11:22   Link #67
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The first episode, the calm before a twisted storm with that intro and ending spelling out for us.
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Old 2016-10-02, 11:36   Link #68
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Originally Posted by R.LocK View Post
Oh. I've got an unpleasant thought.

This is what LL:S would have been, if you were to change idols into magical girls and delve into the dark side of that world.
Do you think we'll get a great 5-minute recap in the final episode of Ikusei Keikaku?!

Anyway, funny thought, R.Lock. If you like the idea of a darker idol anime like that, I'd recommend Wake Up, Girls!
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Old 2016-10-02, 11:40   Link #69
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Do you think we'll get a great 5-minute recap in the final episode of Ikusei Keikaku?!

Anyway, funny thought, R.Lock. If you like the idea of a darker idol anime like that, I'd recommend Wake up Girls!
Nope. Only a ten minute long walk through the streets with someone's body covered in white sheets. If I got my Re:Zero and Danganronpa feels from the show, I am not against it pulling TG:Root A.

And, uh, the movie was enough to convince me to never check that series out.
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Old 2016-10-02, 11:48   Link #70
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I doubt this will be the "best show of the season".

But I have a feeling this might end up becoming my personal favorite... because reasons.
Careful, your comment can trigger a lot of people here

But I agree with you, this is far away from AOTS.
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Old 2016-10-02, 11:58   Link #71
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It will be interesting to see how things work out.

Just depends how dark this thing gets. Though I still don't see from the first episode why it would have to devolve into a killing game. You have a score system that actually works on the idea of helping people. So just have those who score at the bottom at the end of the month lose their powers and that be that. Unless someone near the bottom is a lunatic that will kill to keep their powers it should be fine.

Free to play games....always trouble .
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Old 2016-10-02, 11:58   Link #72
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This isn't the first magical trap, just to be clear. There's been at least one manga doing it before, and there wasn't even a magic gender change involved, just a girly looking boy.
I never claimed that this show did it first. I merely said that it's my favorite element of the show so far. Also, I'm talking about anime, because the world of manga is a completely different playing field which is a lot more varied and has more freedom than anime.

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Off the top of my head, the only other place I remember seeing guy-to-magical girl was Sailor Moon's last season.
Well, there's Kämpfer, but the series is more harem than mahou-shoujo.
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Old 2016-10-02, 12:03   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I never claimed that this show did it first. I merely said that it's my favorite element of the show so far. Also, I'm talking about anime, because the world of manga is a completely different playing field which is a lot more varied and has more freedom than anime.

Well, there's Kämpfer, but the series is more harem than mahou-shoujo.
Seems like there is a few cases. Kampfer being a one, but also "Ore, Twintail ni Narimasu." That was plain straight up a guy transforming into a magical girl.

Somehow that element didn't completely surprise me. It does make some sense. They are transforming via magic....so why not? Whatever this organization is up to, they might as well open up the possibilities to guys who want magical powers as well .
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Old 2016-10-02, 12:10   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I never claimed that this show did it first. I merely said that it's my favorite element of the show so far. Also, I'm talking about anime, because the world of manga is a completely different playing field which is a lot more varied and has more freedom than anime.
Sorry, the wording confused me a bit.

Yes, truly.
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Old 2016-10-02, 12:29   Link #75
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Somehow that element didn't completely surprise me. It does make some sense. They are transforming via magic....so why not? Whatever this organization is up to, they might as well open up the possibilities to guys who want magical powers as well .
Heh, since crossdressing is not something that I enjoy (let alone crossgendering), if I were Souta and if I have options, I'd rather become a male-wizard like in mahou-shoujo series like Master Clef or Saoran or Clow Reed. I mean, by playing it that way you'll have magical powers and fancy clothes without changing your Mr.P into Ms.V (unless you like turning into a female). Or better yet, I'll turn myself into one of these :
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Old 2016-10-02, 13:38   Link #76
Zefyris
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^ Don't like the design at all, mahou shoujo designs seems cooler x).
I would personally accept such a deal as long as i'm really turned female rather than forced to wear a dress as my costume (*cough, I suddenly have reminiscence of mahou shoujo kinshihou's nightmarish "old fat and bearded guy in a cute mahou shoujo dress", cough*). Hope I wouldn't have to wear one of those bikini-like thing like some characters in mahoiku tho. Something like Weiss Winterprison's appearance would be nice. Or magikaroid 44, or at worse Alice or Snowwhite's type of dress.
Or better, far better, some of the stuff characters in later volumes are wearing, as there's so really nice outfits in there.

Anyway, mahou shoujo full transformation, why not. That sounds fun. You only transform when you need the MS's power anyway. It's not like it's a permanent "appearance".
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Old 2016-10-02, 14:12   Link #77
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What I wrote here is basically what was madomagi's whole plot and content and I denied it being here in Mahoiku.
Wow, you really make zero efforts to understand what people are saying, don't you? Can you understand how, say, Haikyuu and Ace of Diamond are similar, despite one being about Volley Ball and the other Baseball, and all their other many, many differences? Or how someone could come up with the concept of the Hero's Journey, and apply it to so many different stories?

Quote:
Who is bothering about detail right now. Those who keep nagging at mere small part of the story being similar, or those who point that 90% of the content is completely different?
You. Definitely you. It was never about precise plot points. It's about themes and tone.

Quote:
Also where did you see any loss of humanity in mahoiku?
The magical girls are clearly superhuman in ability. But more importantly, it's about choices and self-image. Souta already declared that normal, human laws didn't apply to them. And, unless there's some kind of bait and switch, they're about to start killing each other. Now, lest you nitpick again, I know there are plenty of human beings who are killers. But have you heard about the dehumanizing effects of war, or similar expressions? They aren't to be taken literally.

Quote:
And there's no contract with devil either. No one is asking for wishes and asking payment in return. No price for the power as well, as we saw.
A "deal with the devil" doesn't have to involve a straight up wish. It can simply start with temptation, here in the form of magical girl powers, for a maybe limited time. Just long enough to start an addiction, maybe?

And the "price" can be extracted in subtle ways. It doesn't have to be about demons dragging a soul to hell. And, again, it looks like they're about to kill each other.

(Though hey, if it turns out it's an innocent budget cut and they never planned on having teenagers battle to the death, had no idea they'd do that, yeah, you can probably take that deal with the devil off the table.)
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Old 2016-10-02, 14:29   Link #78
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power and the price thereof, possibly loss of humanity
These are two very common themes in fiction. I've seen them explored in multiple mediums and genres, in multiple stories. And numerous anime shows have explored them. If anything, these themes are even more commonly explored in mecha anime (Valvrave the Liberator and Gundam Wing both come very quickly to mind).

Are mahou shoujo stories now forever barred from exploring these themes just because of what Madoka Magica did over 5 years ago? Even if you explore them in a new magical girl show that's implementation is 90% or more different from Madoka Magica?
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Old 2016-10-02, 14:38   Link #79
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
While Mami became one not so much due to choice but more of circumstance, the similarities lie in the romanticized and idealized notion of what Mahou Shoujo is. While we can argue that Mami was sort of Madoka's inspiration after seeing her in action, she already held on to idealized beliefs of what a MS is, and Koyuki falls much more into this category given she's been wanting to be one since as long as she can remember.

And it's precisely this similarity and state of mind that produced the gravitas of Madoka, and eventually Koyuki's, realization that being a MS isn't all it's cracked up to be. The higher the pedestal, the higher the fall. You could say that Koyuki's MS pedestal is higher than anyone in the Madoka cast ever had. It happened then, it'll happen again, with probably similar results. I make the comparison because it seems eventual, and I would have hoped for a different approach rather than a similar character holding a similar naivete who's eventual fall satisfies the viewer's Schadenfreude.



Not so much because I assume the culture difference. Such things aren't exactly THAT frowned upon where I live. When you go to a con filled with businessmen, lawyers, doctors, nurses, engineers and other full blown professionals wearing everything from Naruto to a pedobear suit, seeing an elementary schooler crossdressing to a character they isn't something a lot of people bat an eyelash over.
One big difference is that Koyuki has a nice childhood friend to catch her when she falls and share her troubles.
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Old 2016-10-02, 14:39   Link #80
Zefyris
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Wow, you really make zero efforts to understand what people are saying, don't you? Can you understand how, say, Haikyuu and Ace of Diamond are similar, despite one being about Volley Ball and the other Baseball, and all their other many, many differences? Or how someone could come up with the concept of the Hero's Journey, and apply it to so many different stories?


You. Definitely you. It was never about precise plot points. It's about themes and tone.


The magical girls are clearly superhuman in ability. But more importantly, it's about choices and self-image. Souta already declared that normal, human laws didn't apply to them. And, unless there's some kind of bait and switch, they're about to start killing each other. Now, lest you nitpick again, I know there are plenty of human beings who are killers. But have you heard about the dehumanizing effects of war, or similar expressions? They aren't to be taken literally.


A "deal with the devil" doesn't have to involve a straight up wish. It can simply start with temptation, here in the form of magical girl powers, for a maybe limited time. Just long enough to start an addiction, maybe?

And the "price" can be extracted in subtle ways. It doesn't have to be about demons dragging a soul to hell. And, again, it looks like they're about to kill each other.

(Though hey, if it turns out it's an innocent budget cut and they never planned on having teenagers battle to the death, had no idea they'd do that, yeah, you can probably take that deal with the devil off the table.)
Ahahahah x)
Judging by the first episode and MAL synopsis alone, you should say that Mahoiku has more connection with SAO than with Madomagi. They're both beginning with a video game (and the show take the name of the video game as its own name ) and trapped in circumstances that should not dictate killing each others yet start to kill each others after a while. It's basically just removing the "living inside a video game" and adding mahou shoujo instead.

So I guess MahoIku is a rip off of SAO then. Wow, another one, who would have thought!

And, it was already said that there's 16 mahou shoujo in this town alone, which gives you an idea of how much mahou shoujo there should be in the whole world if there's at least one to several per town. Are you suggesting that they are either all about to start killing each other or that they're already doing it?
Because if not, then in Mahoiku, killing each other is NOT related with becoming a magical girl and should therefore NOT be counted as a "price" to become one as that would be special circumstances. In MAdomagi the double price to pay was common to ALL magical girls, and that's why it was a price and a "deal with the devil".
You're free to think either way obviously, but just remember that what you're watching right now, is like a single garden in a whole country. Maybe you shouldn't so easily conclude that the plants from this garden are everywhere in the country as well, and that the whole country is full of flowers.

So I'm going to say it again. I'm not seeing any proof that becoming a magical girl has any 'downside" to call it a deal with a devil, like it was in madomagi.

Theme and tone is vague as fuck. How can someone call something a rip off or even heavily inspired just as that? Mahou shoujo with dark undertone hasn't started with madomagi to begin with. Yes it became more popular in anime thanks to its success. Not changing anything. Video game in anime became popular with SAO, but it's neither the first nor the origin of anything relevant on that point, so calling an anime with a video game subject a rip off or knock off of madomagi is stupid and that's it.

Come on, for how many years are we really going to continue that stupidity? T his is becoming extremely tiring. You've got a mahou shoujo anime? has it darker tone? "madomagi rip off/knock off/influence (when being nice)". Is it not?"it's a classic mahou shoujo" .
Really? It's been 5 years already. Can't people move on with that stupid habit now? Do peoples really think that as soon as there's a mahou shoujo element in it, there can be only two types of show?

Do peoples ranks every single show with mecha appearing in them into two sorts of show as well? Do they rank every single show witha white aired antagonist into two type of shows? No? Then why CONTENT like magical girl immediately transform all the infinite possibilities in stories as "either a madomagi type or a slassical type"?
Was madomagi a battle royale? If not, then why aren't peoples comparing Mahoiku with battle royale types of stories? Rather than comparing a show just due to the existence of a common content, why not compare it due to the type of plot being similar?
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