AnimeSuki Forums

Flower · 2013-03-08, 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

I hate recycled plots...

I must that I don't mind them if they are well done.

I must admit, though, that I dislike what come across to me as poorly done recycled plots ... and not just in the anime medium.

judasmartel · 2013-03-08, 02:16

I don't mind recycled plots as long as it's done well. What do you expect writers to do? In this modern day and age, everything has already been done before, but some things are done more often than the others.

Triple_R · 2013-03-08, 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by judasmartel

I don't mind recycled plots as long as it's done well. What do you expect writers to do? In this modern day and age, everything has already been done before, but some things are done more often than the others.

No, not really. Some things really are fresh and original. I appreciate writers who aim for that, and who aren't totally derivative in what they write.

Guido · 2013-03-08, 02:33

Pretty much I hate the use of both the "stupid male lead" that in a misfortunate accident or casually "walks right into the compromising situation" where the female lead is making use of the toilet, undressing with her underwear almost off, and/or right after coming out of the shower.

You know what happens next: The unfortunate, victimized male unwillingly sees by mistake the female lead exposed, then she goes nuclear ballistic and proceeds to brutalize him, and the whole gag ends with the male turned into a bloody bag and made look like the culprit just for the sake of gratuitious humor.

The above gag has not only become overused and clichéd, but nowadays I feel it's being forcefully inserted into many harem, comedy anime from these days or today's generation.
That gag has lost its natural spontaneity and now is getting old on me. It doesn't feel the same as in the golden days from the "Love Hina" era or before.

Shyni · 2013-03-08, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by judasmartel

I don't mind recycled plots as long as it's done well. What do you expect writers to do? In this modern day and age, everything has already been done before, but some things are done more often than the others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, not really. Some things really are fresh and original. I appreciate writers who aim for that, and who aren't totally derivative in what they write.

Can anybody give good examples for either of these arguments? The rest of us might be able to agree more if somebody can give examples.

Akito Kinomoto · 2013-03-08, 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyni

Can anybody give good examples for either of these arguments? The rest of us might be able to agree more if somebody can give examples.

Cowboy Bebop is original in terms of its story (Trips point) while Puella Magi Madoka Magica is often considered strong storytelling from an uncommon genre (judas' point).

Back on topic, I have an extreme dislike for "thinking" shows without any actual question or context. Asking me to sit through a bad story is one thing but leaving me in the dark on what I'm supposed to judge is a fantastic way to get on my "Won't Watch" list.

Triple_R · 2013-03-08, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyni

Can anybody give good examples for either of these arguments? The rest of us might be able to agree more if somebody can give examples.

Yeah, Cowboy Bebop is a good example of originality. There's a reason why a certain group of anime fans are always wanting another Cowboy Bebop.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think Dot Hack was the first anime to have VR MMOs as a major element of its show. So that's original by definition.

SAO was the first anime to be about people being trapped in a VR MMO, being able to die there, and having to complete the VR MMO in order to escape back into the real world.

Shyni · 2013-03-08, 13:57

I haven't really watched Cowboy Bebop, besides maybe glimpsing it on TV at some point, but I do agree about Madoka Magica being derivative, but not in a bad way?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm not 100% sure, but I think Dot Hack was the first anime to have VR MMOs as a major element of its show. So that's original by definition.

SAO was the first anime to be about people being trapped in a VR MMO, being able to die there, and having to complete the VR MMO in order to escape back into the real world.

Isn't "trapped in a Virtual MMO" pretty much a more specific version of "trapped in cyberspace", i.e, Digimon?

Also, I'm pretty sure Kim Possible (of all things) had a "must win the game to escape" plot for an MMO episode.

hyl · 2013-03-08, 13:58

I think it also depends on your own interpretation of originality. Like I see Moshidora as somewhat original, because i can't think of any other work that uses the teachings of a real life management book to coach a baseball team, while some can see it as a regular sports anime with a slight twist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm not 100% sure, but I think Dot Hack was the first anime to have VR MMOs as a major element of its show. So that's original by definition.

SAO was the first anime to be about people being trapped in a VR MMO, being able to die there, and having to complete the VR MMO in order to escape back into the real world.

If i have to be critical , being trapped in a virtual world is very similar to the all the stories in which the protagonist(s) is/are stuck in a unknown world. Like alice in wonderland or peter pan, but only more modern

Triple_R · 2013-03-08, 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyni

Isn't "trapped in a Virtual MMO" pretty much a more specific version of "trapped in cyberspace", i.e, Digimon?

It depends. Was the cyberspace in question populated by lots and lots of other humans, or was it just a few kids and their digimon? Serious question, as I never watched Digimon.

A big part of a MMO is the size of its online communities. It should feel pretty massive, and have a large number of people in it (actual people, not just AIs).

Quote:

Also, I'm pretty sure Kim Possible (of all things) had a "must win the game to escape" plot for one episode.

"Must win the game to escape" is nothing new, but doing that specifically with a VR MMO is new.

I honestly think that people put too high a standard on what constitutes originality, and don't value enough the differences that certain specifications can create.

In my opinion, Madoka is original itself, because of what it does with the magical girl familiar archetype.

Shyni · 2013-03-08, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It depends. Was the cyberspace in question populated by lots and lots of other humans, or was it just a few kids and their digimon? Serious question, as I never watched Digimon.

A big part of a MMO is the size of its online communities. It should feel pretty massive, and have a large number of people in it (actual people, not just AIs).

The digital world didn't have many humans, usually (I haven't seen Xros Wars/Fusion, so I don't know about that), but there are huge numbers of Digimon representing data, viruses and whatnot, and they tend to be treated as "people" in some way. But I guess they're more like NPCs, in the sense that they (usually) don't have lives outside the digital world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"Must win the game to escape" is nothing new, but doing that specifically with a VR MMO is new.

Well, that Kim Possible episode tied the whole "must win to escape" deal specifically to an MMO and a faulty VR system. Only one character was actually trapped, since everyone else were playing from their PCs (I think), but he was using a buggy VR thing. (did that need a spoiler? I honestly don't know, but it was only a single episode, anyway)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I honestly think that people put too high a standard on what constitutes originality, and don't value enough the differences that certain specifications can create.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Then again, I don't mind finding similarities with another show, unless it makes me want to watch that other show instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In my opinion, Madoka is original itself, because of what it does with the magical girl familiar archetype.

Well, the idea of Kyubey isn't all that original, except maybe in that specific context.

Spoiler for Kyubey, concept-wise:

Akito Kinomoto · 2013-03-08, 14:43

Digimon, at least until Tamers, was much closer to the theme of being sent or trapped in another world. It's not the best example of video game alternate reality because the characters and their world recognized the Digital World as a separate world and not a game; the characters from Sword Art Online and .hack// recognize their respective alternate worlds as games. Being digital was irrelevant; it was about how the characters and their world perceived the other one. Tamers is closer to Sword Art Online and .hack// in regards to being a game within a world, while 01 and 02 features an alternate (albeit digital) reality.

Flower · 2013-03-08, 14:44

The question of originality is always a tricky one for me. Speaking very, very generally I guess I would put it like this.

Objectively we all have a balance of a love of permanency and a love of change ingrained within our being. Different people may have one or the other developed more and the other developed less, but it is still there. This extends to every area and aspect of our life, our tastes wax and wane, change, develop, etc., etc. over time. Even the world we live in has these aspects - we have the "same old seasons" each year, and for some the feelings one associates with a particular season feel fresh each time they come round whereas for others they are merely "the same old thing".

In the same way, many people will agree that the balance between the two aspects of change and permanency is most desirable for growth, and that being solely "stuck" in one or the other is an indication of a lack of growth and maturity on many levels (and perhaps even impedes one true ability to appreciate, evaluate and "enjoy" reality for what it is, though that is a different issue).

That being said, this principle extends to the expressions of mankind as well, including the arts. An absolute demand for "originality", "novelty" and an almost obsessive horror of "the same old thing" is no better than an absolute insistence that insisting that there is only one way, method, model, formula etc. in which things can either "work properly" or be "truly effective".

One's individual tastes within this spectrum varies, of course, (and can sometimes differ depending on the art form) but the extremes are usually generally agreed upon to be avoided, and the principles contributing to one's tastes can generally be articulated.

And looking at anime in this context, something like "shoujo" is a general category (perhaps like "classical music" would be a category of music in "Western/European culture"), and general categories have common themes, but subjectively whether or no it is done well is the issue for the viewer to decide.

For example, for me a recent example of shoujo anime done very well would be Sukitte Iinayo. For me it is a good example of "classic shoujo" and was done very well. Whereas the shoujo series Tonari no Kaibutsu kun was also shoujo, but while I admit that it was done very well it did not appeal to me. I am sure others could come up with what they felt were poor examples of shoujo as well.

In some ways, while I can certainly appreciate creativity and original stories, I find that for me series that either focus on or reflect such easily identifiable external qualities equally have the same general advantages and disadvantages depending on how it is done. A good example of a series that was "unique" for me, done well and that I enjoyed a lot would be would be Ikoku Meiro no Croisee, whereas a series that was equally unique and done well that I disliked a lot would be Mawaru Penguindrum.

I hope this helps a little in terms of background material for what I was saying when I mentioned that I disliked poorly done recycled plots, and that for me whether or no a series uses material from before is very much a secondary issue.

ChainLegacy · 2013-03-08, 16:23

Very few ideas just pop out of nowhere. Almost everything is derived from something that preceded it in some way or another. More important to me is freshness. Do these derivative plot elements come together in a way that feels new? Are there different characters, settings, etc that blend together 'copied' ideas and put a new spin on them? For instance, one could argue that most Western fantasy is derivative from Tolkien, but there's still plenty of fresh ideas spinning off from his works. Another point is that Tolkien wasn't completely original either; he took his ideas from ancient myths. The same applies to anime. Looking at one show versus an older one and finding all the similarities doesn't necessarily knock the inspired show. It's when it's a clone without any entertainment value that a lack of originality really hurts the most.

**Solace** · 2013-03-08, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Very few ideas just pop out of nowhere. Almost everything is derived from something that preceded it in some way or another.

Too true. I just take a bunch of ideas, write them on little pieces of paper, and toss them into a hat. Then I pick three and run with it. Right now I'm writing a novel called Jigoku no Ranpu Shēdo Niwatori, or in Google translated English, Lampshade Chickens in Hell.

It's a hot and spicy, action packed tale about a middle school student who suddenly finds himself stuck in Hell after discovering that he is betrothed to the Princess of Darkness! Prepare to cluck your tongue as hilarious puns and feathers fly in this wacky school romantic comedy!

Anime debuts this fall!

Dawnstorm · 2013-03-08, 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flower

For example, for me a recent example of shoujo anime done very well would be Sukitte Iinayo. For me it is a good example of "classic shoujo" and was done very well. Whereas the shoujo series Tonari no Kaibutsu kun was also shoujo, but while I admit that it was done very well it did not appeal to me. I am sure others could come up with what they felt were poor examples of shoujo as well.

The two shows in a nutshell:

Sukitte Ii Na Yo:

The class-room rabbit is dead:

Everyone: You took care of it, Mai. Rabbit Killer! Rabbit Killer!
Mai: It's not my fault, yet they're all blaming me. I shall never trust anyone again.

Tonari no Kaibutsu kun:

The class-room rabbit is dead:

Everyone: *cries*
Teacher: I know it's sad. But death is a natural part of life. I'm sure he was happy that you took care of him so well.
Shizuku: Well, that was sad. Can I go home now?
Everone: *stares*
Shizuku: Can I go home now?
Everyone: *stares*
Shizuku: *goes home*

***

It wasn't exactly like that, but generally Sukitte Ii na yo affirmed common shoujo tropes, while Tonari no Kaibutsu kun mercilessly showed them up. Both shows are well done, but they don't necessarily appeal to the same target group. In fact, they're almost polar opposites, I feel. The point? As long as a show knows what it's doing, it's fine.

(For the record, I didn't like Sukitte Ii na yo much, while I loved Tonari no Kaibutsu kun.)

ChainLegacy · 2013-03-08, 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solace

Too true. I just take a bunch of ideas, write them on little pieces of paper, and toss them into a hat. Then I pick three and run with it. Right now I'm writing a novel called Jigoku no Ranpu Shēdo Niwatori, or in Google translated English, Lampshade Chickens in Hell.

It's a hot and spicy, action packed tale about a middle school student who suddenly finds himself stuck in Hell after discovering that he is betrothed to the Princess of Darkness! Prepare to cluck your tongue as hilarious puns and feathers fly in this wacky school romantic comedy!

Anime debuts this fall!

By your description, I wouldn't be surprised if there already were an anime for it...

Last Sinner · 2013-03-08, 23:40

I'll be very frank about what I hate about anime at present.

That a specific type of anime fan dictates what sells and has the industry by the balls. This is more a fan pandering driven industry that a director/author or crative/innovative one, generally. There isn't that much variety in the type of show that sells well for the greater part. Character art is so homogenised in a lot of cases it really feels like watching the same show amongst so many of them. Slow atmospheres with equally slow pacings are more common now. It's virtually considered a crime for a show with adults (or even adults that actually somewhat act like adults) in more major roles to be popular generally. The 'eat your cake at have it too' attitude to a bunch of female characters and/or couples. The 'you're our property' attitude to seiyuus and people that work in the industry. The 'a show is meangingless if it doesn't sell well' attitude that is becoming more prevalent. The insular, present-obsessed nature of the fandom. The utter disdain and hatred that a good deal of fandoms have for people that don't 100% agree with them (not necessarily unique to anime, but it is there). The sometimes present tl;dr nature towards anyone wanting to talk about something with an open mind and substantiated points of view. And the unlikeliness I'll find three titles that I'll want to remember from this year.

Like a good deal of my seasoned anime friends, I don't like where it all is going. I'm finding it hard to be enthused about the medium anymore.

Dr. Casey · 2013-03-08, 23:52

Quote:

The utter disdain and hatred that a good deal of fandoms have for people that don't 100% agree with them (not necessarily unique to anime, but it is there).

Yeah... ever heard about that football fan (A grown man in his 30s or 40s) that tackled a five year old boy because he was wearing a jersey supporting the other team?

Humans are a prickly species, unfortunately... it's a facet of human nature that's present from the days where preschoolers bicker over toys and never really goes away, older people just grate on each other's nerves over different things.

Akito Kinomoto · 2013-03-09, 00:05

I must have lucked out on the time I joined the anime fandom. Somewhere around 2006, I think, right on the border between "now" and "back then." I look back a lot and I see the current a lot and get mixed results from both. Having the time to watch only one or two series a month these days must be helping too. I don't know. I think I've actually become much less jaded than I was becoming. However my tastes change, anime has just about enough of everything to accommodate me.

Want cute girls doing cute things? There's an anime for that. Want hot-blooded gar action? There's an anime for that. Want something thought-provoking? Yeah, there's an anime for that too.

2013-03-08, 14:44	Link #353
Flower Blooming on the mountain Join Date: May 2010 Location: Deep in their roots, all flowers keep the light....	The question of originality is always a tricky one for me. Speaking very, very generally I guess I would put it like this. Objectively we all have a balance of a love of permanency and a love of change ingrained within our being. Different people may have one or the other developed more and the other developed less, but it is still there. This extends to every area and aspect of our life, our tastes wax and wane, change, develop, etc., etc. over time. Even the world we live in has these aspects - we have the "same old seasons" each year, and for some the feelings one associates with a particular season feel fresh each time they come round whereas for others they are merely "the same old thing". In the same way, many people will agree that the balance between the two aspects of change and permanency is most desirable for growth, and that being solely "stuck" in one or the other is an indication of a lack of growth and maturity on many levels (and perhaps even impedes one true ability to appreciate, evaluate and "enjoy" reality for what it is, though that is a different issue). That being said, this principle extends to the expressions of mankind as well, including the arts. An absolute demand for "originality", "novelty" and an almost obsessive horror of "the same old thing" is no better than an absolute insistence that insisting that there is only one way, method, model, formula etc. in which things can either "work properly" or be "truly effective". One's individual tastes within this spectrum varies, of course, (and can sometimes differ depending on the art form) but the extremes are usually generally agreed upon to be avoided, and the principles contributing to one's tastes can generally be articulated. And looking at anime in this context, something like "shoujo" is a general category (perhaps like "classical music" would be a category of music in "Western/European culture"), and general categories have common themes, but subjectively whether or no it is done well is the issue for the viewer to decide. For example, for me a recent example of shoujo anime done very well would be Sukitte Iinayo. For me it is a good example of "classic shoujo" and was done very well. Whereas the shoujo series Tonari no Kaibutsu kun was also shoujo, but while I admit that it was done very well it did not appeal to me. I am sure others could come up with what they felt were poor examples of shoujo as well. In some ways, while I can certainly appreciate creativity and original stories, I find that for me series that either focus on or reflect such easily identifiable external qualities equally have the same general advantages and disadvantages depending on how it is done. A good example of a series that was "unique" for me, done well and that I enjoyed a lot would be would be Ikoku Meiro no Croisee, whereas a series that was equally unique and done well that I disliked a lot would be Mawaru Penguindrum. I hope this helps a little in terms of background material for what I was saying when I mentioned that I disliked poorly done recycled plots, and that for me whether or no a series uses material from before is very much a secondary issue. __________________

2013-03-08, 23:40	Link #358
Last Sinner You're Hot, Cupcake Join Date: Aug 2008 Age: 42	I'll be very frank about what I hate about anime at present. That a specific type of anime fan dictates what sells and has the industry by the balls. This is more a fan pandering driven industry that a director/author or crative/innovative one, generally. There isn't that much variety in the type of show that sells well for the greater part. Character art is so homogenised in a lot of cases it really feels like watching the same show amongst so many of them. Slow atmospheres with equally slow pacings are more common now. It's virtually considered a crime for a show with adults (or even adults that actually somewhat act like adults) in more major roles to be popular generally. The 'eat your cake at have it too' attitude to a bunch of female characters and/or couples. The 'you're our property' attitude to seiyuus and people that work in the industry. The 'a show is meangingless if it doesn't sell well' attitude that is becoming more prevalent. The insular, present-obsessed nature of the fandom. The utter disdain and hatred that a good deal of fandoms have for people that don't 100% agree with them (not necessarily unique to anime, but it is there). The sometimes present tl;dr nature towards anyone wanting to talk about something with an open mind and substantiated points of view. And the unlikeliness I'll find three titles that I'll want to remember from this year. Like a good deal of my seasoned anime friends, I don't like where it all is going. I'm finding it hard to be enthused about the medium anymore. __________________

2013-03-08, 02:16	Link #342
judasmartel Senior Member Author Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines	I don't mind recycled plots as long as it's done well. What do you expect writers to do? In this modern day and age, everything has already been done before, but some things are done more often than the others.

2013-03-08, 02:33	Link #344
Guido Snobby Gentleman Join Date: May 2004 Location: Monterrey, México Age: 43	Pretty much I hate the use of both the "stupid male lead" that in a misfortunate accident or casually "walks right into the compromising situation" where the female lead is making use of the toilet, undressing with her underwear almost off, and/or right after coming out of the shower. You know what happens next: The unfortunate, victimized male unwillingly sees by mistake the female lead exposed, then she goes nuclear ballistic and proceeds to brutalize him, and the whole gag ends with the male turned into a bloody bag and made look like the culprit just for the sake of gratuitious humor. The above gag has not only become overused and clichéd, but nowadays I feel it's being forcefully inserted into many harem, comedy anime from these days or today's generation. That gag has lost its natural spontaneity and now is getting old on me. It doesn't feel the same as in the golden days from the "Love Hina" era or before.

2013-03-08, 16:23	Link #354
ChainLegacy 廉頗 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Massachusetts Age: 34	Very few ideas just pop out of nowhere. Almost everything is derived from something that preceded it in some way or another. More important to me is freshness. Do these derivative plot elements come together in a way that feels new? Are there different characters, settings, etc that blend together 'copied' ideas and put a new spin on them? For instance, one could argue that most Western fantasy is derivative from Tolkien, but there's still plenty of fresh ideas spinning off from his works. Another point is that Tolkien wasn't completely original either; he took his ideas from ancient myths. The same applies to anime. Looking at one show versus an older one and finding all the similarities doesn't necessarily knock the inspired show. It's when it's a clone without any entertainment value that a lack of originality really hurts the most.