2010-12-13, 20:10 | Link #83 |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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I don't know if it's because I'm one myself which somehow causes them to stay away from me, but it seems like there aren't any around where I am either.
However there seems to be a ton of "type B" tsunderes - heck my Mom, Dad, and sister are ones. (this makes me the outcast with my "type A" and general kuudere-ness as well...) If you have no idea what I mean by "type A" and "type B", see: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere
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2010-12-14, 03:08 | Link #84 |
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Tsundere do exist and it is kinda cute when they are young but it kind of get annoying when they turn old.
However, it depends on what type of tsundere as well. Those that resemblem Kagami exist and can be found in most girls but those type like Taiga, Nagi, Loise, and Shana are rare and tends to be annoying. |
2010-12-14, 03:16 | Link #85 |
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Ha, so I'm NOT the only one that doesn't like the loli-tsundere!
(interestingly enough the english dub of Shana instantly removes much of the loli vibe due to her non-loli-sounding VA, which end up making Shana no longer annoying)
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2010-12-14, 03:55 | Link #86 |
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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What if a girl is generally dere but can be tsun when provoked? I have some experience with this one in real life.
I'm fine with either high pitched voices (hey, I like all the K-On! OPs) or tsun, but I'm not fond of them combined. That being said, I actually like Taiga and Shana, I just prefer characters like Rin/Hitagi/Tsugumi (the Ever 17 character, for those wondering "which" Tsugumi).
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2010-12-14, 04:04 | Link #87 |
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Oh, I completely forgot about Tsugumi as an example of the more aloof non-loli tsundere. *goes and adds that*
As for everything else, it would seem we think alike. Everything you said could have came out of my mouth and there wouldn't have been a single lie.
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2010-12-15, 11:21 | Link #88 |
the cynic
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Somewhere between life and death.
Age: 42
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Don't know if it has already been posted.
I recommend we standardize on TVtropes definition: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere
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2010-12-15, 13:25 | Link #89 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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2010-12-15, 15:04 | Link #90 |
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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Yeah, I'd be careful about using TVtropes as an authority for terms like these, their definition of tsundere is actually pretty well done, but some others aren't - their page on moe, for example, pretty much perpetuates every stereotype about the concept that I dispute.
(I like to run definitions and explanations of moe through what I call the "Matsuri test". Basically, I ask myself whether Sola's Matsuri Shihou meets the bulk of the description. Passing this test if not very common despite the fact that Matsuri is often considered very moe.) I like the fact that they discuss the different kinds of "tsun" and "dere" a character may exhibit. I also like the fact they note that characters often transition from type A to type B when they become more comfortable with their love interest. There are, however, a few flaws: -The implication that a defrosting ice queen is not a tsundere. I'm not aware of any precedent for this. -It implies that its moe for a tsundere to blush and make suspiciously specific denials... and then links TV tropes definition of moe. The reason this kind of behaviour from a tsundere is moe is because it evokes a warm "awww, she really cares (even though she's denying it)" in the viewer, rather than most of the stuff mentioned in that article. Granted, this is a problem with the moe article more than the tsundere one. I also think that the article misses a couple interesting things about tsunderes, like the fact that if a type A tsundere is the lead girl in a romantic comedy, she'll usually have girl without a tsun side (possibly a yamato nadeshiko) as a rival specifically to highlight her personality. But those aren't really necessary to a basic definition, just interesting observations.
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2010-12-15, 15:18 | Link #91 | ||
the cynic
Join Date: Nov 2006
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TVtrope is definitely not "complete", one should treat it as a bare-bones concise description of what certain terms generally means today. Despite all that, I figured the discussion will be better if everyone is on the "same page". Quote:
Tsundere and Moe aren't mutual exclusive BTW.
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2010-12-15, 15:45 | Link #92 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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0utf0xZer0 is pretty up-to-speed on moe and tsundere, I think he knows that. He was noting that the 'moe' description in tvtropes is, politely, a mess and misleading. It is unfortunate the 'tsundere' descriptions invoking 'moe' link to it.
And yeah, I don't dispute the 'tsundere' entry isn't a good read for anyone before they start throwing terms around or wonder what "type a" means. I just see people sometimes quoting it as some unassailable source when it sometimes is as bad as the "Urban Dictionary" in missing the mark. I put a "credibility value" on all information... some sites rank better than others. It isn't unusual to encounter people who put '100%' on all sites la la la (and yes, XKCD is full of win and has high credibility value )
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2010-12-15, 16:41 | Link #93 | |
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Quote:
A tsundere may act "cold" towards people, but she does so intentionally - Hitagi from Bakemonogatari is a good example. Many kuuderes act cold towards people unintentionally: see Rei (Evangelion), Yuki (Haruhi) and Sakaki (Azumanga Diaoh). Second, characters that employ a cold shoulder approach are generally considered tsunderes. So characters that are intentionally "kuu" like Hitagi are both tsundere and kuudere. Quite a few people, myself included, prefer to classify her as a tsundere. Whoever wrote the Tvtropes article makes the mistake of thinking the terms tsundere, kuudere, and defrosting ice queen are distinct in modern usage - in practice, their usage overlaps. The term tsundere is still used to refer to characters that are defrosting ice queens. Yeah, but the thing is, TVtropes moe page pretty much sets you on the wrong track if you're looking for common tsundere moe traits. If I had to define what makes tsunderes moe, I'd stress three things: -They really do care. (As noted, the denial often merely gives it away) -They're often easy to tease. (Which is endearing to many.) -In more emotionally mature cases, they're often playful and teasing themselves (Again, Hitagi is a great example). In the case of tsundere who are also kuudere, the fact she's cold most of the time just makes her emotional moments warmer as well.
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2010-12-15, 16:44 | Link #94 | |
the cynic
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Figured it would be better to nail it down to one (general) definition. Variations can be taken care of by "types" or just qualifying it, or are already out right forked out to a separate term (which is probably hiding somewhere on TVtropes LOL). Discussions sometimes starting going in circles when one person is speaking about apples and the other oranges, and both don't realise it.
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2010-12-15, 17:08 | Link #95 | |
~Official Slacker~
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2010-12-15, 18:16 | Link #96 |
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Kuudere and Tsundere can overlap somewhat, creating the "kuutsundere" as I like to call it when both are distinctly present. Tsugumi from Ever17 is an example of this.
In a way the kuudere is just a non-aggressive tsundere.
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Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64; 2010-12-15 at 19:23. |
2010-12-15, 19:16 | Link #97 | ||
the cynic
Join Date: Nov 2006
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I have no idea how I missed your post.
Quote:
Tsundere - While sweet and nice on the inside, normally keeps a aggressive, hash, and sometimes comically violent exterior as a sort of coping mechanism for feelings they not quite sure how to deal with. Kuudere - Similar to Tsundere, but with a different coping mechanism. Instead of being aggressive and actively abusive, the Kuudere puts up a cold, apathetic, uncaring, aloaf front. (defrosting) Ice Queen - Unlike the Kuudere, the cold hash exterior isn't a facade. Inside they really are bitter and broken people that have lost all empathy for the rest of the human race, but they can be defrosted over time and become friendlier person over the course of the story. Another difference between Tsundere and Kuudere is the way they react when angered.
Then there is their reaction when flustered, like when it comes to romance.
Of course, these archetypes are not all encompassing, there will be characters that have a mix of the above characteristics and don't strictly fit into either catergory, but are not common enough to be a named archetype. Quote:
If you want examples there is Code Geass for reference, where you can see the two types interact, C.C - Kuudere Kallen - Tsundere
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Last edited by Salt; 2010-12-15 at 19:54. |
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2010-12-15, 19:57 | Link #99 | |
the cynic
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Thanks. >< Cosmic rays must have flipped a bit or two in my brain. I think I should get more rest.
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2010-12-16, 03:47 | Link #100 |
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
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I hate to say this because you're arguing pretty well, but I'm still not convinced.
TV tropes describes the word "tsundere" as a merger of "aloof or irritable" and lovestruck. Kuudere, on the other hand, is a merger of cool and lovestruck. Not cold, just cool. Does Sakaki have a "cold" exterior? No, people just assign her a "cool" image. Same with Mai Kawasumi from Kanon. (Although in that case, the image is only part cool - it's also "scary loner girl".) And the idea that "kuu" means "cool" isn't just something I came up with: take a look at how this poster defines the difference between "kuudere" and the little used term "dandere", for instance. The "cool" factor is front and center: http://bangin.wordpress.com/2008/04/...%83%ACdandere/ I consider any behaviour that could qualify as "abrasive" tsun, so to me intentionally acting cold to someone is a kind of tsun, and characters that do this are better described as a tsundere or tsundere-kuudere hybrid, not pure kuudere. The defrosting ice queen/tsundere distinction you make is useful, the issue is that defrosting ice queen is a TVtropes term, not anime fan slang. Many anime fans would use tsundere simply because they don't know or don't care about the other term.
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