2011-06-22, 19:53 | Link #14361 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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2011-06-22, 20:36 | Link #14362 | |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Edit: Slightly wrong here. It's not that it's counted twice, it's that it's counted where it shouldn't be. The money was there all along.
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Last edited by Kamui4356; 2011-06-22 at 20:48. |
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2011-06-22, 20:36 | Link #14363 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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However, the individual mandate (forcing someone to buy anything just for being a citizen) is not constitutional by any stretch of the imagination. As for the "Welfare clause." It doesn't mean welfare like government entitlement programs, it means what James Madison said it meant in a letter to James Robertson written in 1831: “With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” What the clause is referring to is General Welfare among the states, meaning states cannot put tariffs, raising their own armies, and other practices or laws in place which would disrupt the general welfare of the Union. All states were to be treated equally under the Constitution. If you have another definition by a founding father I'd honestly like to see it. Because so far as I have read there is nothing that supports an individual mandate of any kind in the US Constitution as it was passed in the Health Care Law. Now, a Health Care law that would provide Universal Health Care for people making below poverty line (which I believe is $9,000/year for an individual) or some other low-income level (like say people making less than $20,000/year individually or some such) paid for via a indirect tax (like a 5% VAT, or the like) would make sense Constitutionally. But forcing people to buy private insurance, or even government insurance, doesn't seem like it would be constitutional based on the language and intent of the constitution as I understand it.
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2011-06-22, 20:55 | Link #14364 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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"debt" is what you owe.... "deficit" is how much you come up short each year.
So, flying is right but he swapped the words. Quote:
We (the US) are effectively a corporate (i.e. fascist) state wherein the two major parties are Column A or Column B of the large corporations (often overlapping). And because their behavior is sociopathic and apathetic to the community ... it is unsustainable. The only question is how deep the spiral will go.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2011-06-22 at 21:16. |
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2011-06-22, 20:56 | Link #14365 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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That being said, I never once referred to the individual mandate nonsense (which may or may not be constitutional...depending on the scholar you ask ). I said "Universal Healthcare" only, something the individual mandate is not considered to be... Last edited by james0246; 2011-06-22 at 21:10. |
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2011-06-22, 21:07 | Link #14366 | |||
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Join Date: Jan 2009
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2011-06-22, 21:40 | Link #14367 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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We are indeed knee-deep in corporatism and it's getting pretty darn scary. All that is needed is Benito's "charismatic leader" and we're in deep, deep dung. Quote:
That's why social security, and medicare derive their constitutional legitimacy from congress' power to tax, not solely the general welfare. The SCOTUS case you quoted is an excellent example of Hamilton's idea of the General Welfare clause application of federal monies. The decision against the states was because the Feds have the power to distribute Federal funds as they see fit to promote the general welfare between the states, but not to individuals (thank you for the links BTW, very interesting reads). Again, a Universal Health Care law supported by a national tax (VAT, Flat or whatever) is constitutional IMHO. My point was the individual mandate is not constitutional because (as Vexx stated) it requires citizens to purchase an item/service in order to be a citizen, as you also stated, that's nonsense, and thus it would seem we basically agree. Personally I think that only the mandate will be struck down as unconstitutional, the rest of the law (or most of it) will probably stand constitutional muster. If it doesn't, then that would be a shame because it's not ALL bad, just a few parts that the corporate lobbies got thrown in for their own gain.
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2011-06-22, 21:57 | Link #14368 |
blinded by blood
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The mandate will screw students hardcore, because what little health services our schools offer doesn't qualify as health insurance, and we don't qualify for Medicare not being seniors or disabled... so what am I supposed to do? Buy insurance and pay it with what money?
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2011-06-22, 22:08 | Link #14369 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Though I agree the Obama "solution" was a poor one. Though I suppose it's a step in the right direction. Perhaps Universal Healthcare should be pushed forward at the state level. |
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2011-06-22, 22:45 | Link #14370 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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There are so many subsets of governmental types that one can't keep track of them all, nor ideally qualify any one government at any type due to all the little exceptions and rules governments have, and the idea of who controls who being shadowy in nature. Also that one government can effectively be two or more different kinds of governments, depending on what point of view you are looking at it from. (Try to define the United States of America as viewed from one of its territories...you might find an interesting answer).
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2011-06-23, 04:20 | Link #14371 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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I suspect it is the use of P/E ratios that resulted in the "over-valuation" of the houses. Those aren't exactly accurate because they are too speculative, the "value" given is based too much on either past or potential earnings (trailing/forward respectively).
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2011-06-23, 05:01 | Link #14372 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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Syria activists: Troops enter village near border
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...06-23-05-04-45 Now they are trying to stop those than flee to Turkey, just hope than they won't do something (more) stupid as shooting over the border...
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2011-06-23, 11:22 | Link #14373 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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2011-06-23, 11:41 | Link #14374 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Though in a sense, the corporation also depends on you to sell it's products. |
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2011-06-23, 12:14 | Link #14375 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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The reason why I applied for a debit card is to buy my stuff cheaper elsewhere in another part of the world - I could get better-looking stuff for my sister's birthday elsewhere instead of the dull local junk here.
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2011-06-23, 12:27 | Link #14376 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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Clinton: U.S. won't keep up aid to Pakistan without change
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...75M4M020110623 They should have done than years ago...
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2011-06-23, 23:25 | Link #14377 |
Eternal Dreamer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Caladan
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Very slight. I thought I saw something like 1 point some tril that Clinton added to the national debt in his 8 years. (Of course this is no comparison to the 5 point some trillion from Bush for 8 years.) The surplus sounds nice. I like how the U.S. government pats itself on the back sometimes. As far as I'm concern, if I have a deficit every year, I don't have a surplus. But it's not like I understand how the government manage their money or anything.
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2011-06-24, 03:05 | Link #14379 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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But alas, they don't seem to. Or not enough. |
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2011-06-24, 03:11 | Link #14380 |
Disabled By Request
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Since there's quite a number of students, there's quite a demand for it. The price of health insurance for students reflects their demand more than their actual need for it. I remember in uni how we studied the concept of utility, but hardly anyone takes that into consideration irl.
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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