Accel World - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Endless Soul]

Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ

Ah, yes. The hate for Noumi rises. Good.

I don't hate him. He just makes me feel like strangling him with his own shoelaces, that's all.

Endless "Non-violent" Soul

[Dr. Casey]

What confuses me is that so many people say that Haru's writing is inconsistent and unrealistic because he slides back to his former self-loathing in this episode. You all do realize that people do, y'know, regress from time to time? Is Haru's development supposed to be absolutely, 100% linear? I used to have horrible self-esteem, I worked on it and I fixed it; but there were days where I'd have setbacks and slip back into old habits and patterns of thinking. Does that mean I'm unrealistic?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I don't know... back when I was a teenager, it didn't take too much for me to get angsty, particularly when it involved girls I liked. To that point, note that in his little flashback sequence, he tied his loss of his wings to the relationships he had with all the girls in his life. When he got mad at Taku, it was all about Chiyu and Kuroyukihime. Basically, he saw his success in the Accelerated World as being his only chance with the ladies, because his poor self-esteem causes him to believe that the girls only like him because of his "skills". This isn't true, but you have to think from his perspective that the series of events do seem to be correlated to some degree.

So I don't know... "poor writing"? I guess I don't really understand what you mean by the plot developments not being fully believable (makes sense to me, given the age and context of the characters), but even setting that aside, I think the characterization that resulted seems quite reasonable to me. Was I the only angsty teen with self-esteem issues growing up?

I probably should've linked that to my previous post but when I was talking about contrived plot developments, I wasn't talking about Haru's characterisation in any way. I was talking about the numeruous plot holes that occured when Haru confronted Noumi. Like how he simply didn't bother telling Taku about the letter, even when he right next to him. Like how Noumi's blackmailing plan seems so flimsy and forced. Like how Haru just stopped beating up Noumi so he could some fancy finishing he didn't even need to do.

His actual characterisation is fine. It's the plot development that it rests on that's the problem.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Haak

I was talking about the numeruous plot holes that occured when Haru confronted Noumi. Like how he simply didn't bother telling Taku about the letter, even when he right next to him. Like how Noumi's blackmailing plan seems so flimsy and forced. Like how Haru just stopped beating up Noumi so he could some fancy finishing he didn't even need to do.

Wasn't he told/threatened to not say anything to Taku? As for Noumi's plan, I think Haru did consider it flimsy until he took Haru's wings away, which is basically going right for the weak point (just like how Yellow Radio brought up Kuroyukihime's killing of the one past king in the last arc as a way of attacking a person's weakest point). And as for going for the "big finish" rather than the easy win... I think that's pretty obvious: he wanted to show him up. A big flashy finish would "show him who's boss", but of course it backfired. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any of these as "plot holes". I think the plot is fine from Haruyuki's perspective. Of course, Noumi is a rather one-dimensional villain who will crumble spectacularly, but that's sort of the point too -- Haruyuki's only failing here because he hasn't yet overcome his weakness, and Noumi happens to be exploiting it masterfully.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

What confuses me is that so many people say that Haru's writing is inconsistent and unrealistic because he slides back to his former self-loathing in this episode. You all do realize that people do, y'know, regress from time to time? Is Haru's development supposed to be absolutely, 100% linear? I used to have horrible self-esteem, I worked on it and I fixed it; but there were days where I'd have setbacks and slip back into old habits and patterns of thinking. Does that mean I'm unrealistic?

I guess that some people may have a hard time understanding why this is such a big deal from his perspective, and so may feel that -- from a storytelling perspective -- the author is having him regress too much. (i.e. We may look at the whole situation he's in and, from our perspective, it looks stupid, and his breakdown looks childish.) But I personally thought the same as you -- the way it played out here seemed perfectly natural to me. Having chronic low self-esteem is like suffering from depression; you can't just tell someone to "snap out of it". That doesn't mean it isn't frustrating to watch, but I think the character development is necessary.

[Reckoner]

The thing about all of this though is that he really hasn't regressed. His confidence up to this point was all too artificial. I believe he'll come out much much stronger out of this arc than the previous ones because he has no special ability or kuroyukihime ot rely on anymore.

[steven3242]

why i have a feeling that ash roller user is araya?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Wasn't he told/threatened to not say anything to Taku?

I meant before he met Noumi but afterwards works just as well. Really, it's not like Noumi can read minds and he has no reason not to tell Taku unless he thinks Taku is too stupid to keep it a secret.

As for Noumi's plan, I think Haru did consider it flimsy until he took Haru's wings away, which is basically going right for the weak point (just like how Yellow Radio brought up Kuroyukihime's killing of the one past king in the last arc as a way of attacking a person's weakest point).

I don't see how that makes any sense. Him suddenly losing his wings isn't going to suddenly make the blackmailing any less flimsy. And if Haru cared so much about his wings that he''ll just let Chiyu become Noumi's pet then that's news to me too.

Besides Noumi did still talk about Haru still being under his thumb in the real world so no I don't think it's the case at all that Haru thought it was flimsy. I think Haru just attacked Noumi because he was just angry at what he was about to do to Chiyu. I've rewatched the scene and I don't think there's anything to suggest he attacked because he thought the blackmailing was flimsy. If that's what he actually thought then you think he would've said something.

And as for going for the "big finish" rather than the easy win... I think that's pretty obvious: he wanted to show him up. A big flashy finish would "show him who's boss", but of course it backfired.

I just think he was handed the Idiot Ball. And slowly grinding his HP down by dragging him across isn't even flashy anyway.

[FlameSparkZ]

Originally Posted by steven3242

why i have a feeling that ash roller user is araya?

Taking into consideration Araya's personality...I seriously doubt Ash Roller is him.

And that's some fancy clothes Sky Raker...she's probably the most human-looking duel avatar yet

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Haak

I meant before he met Noumi but afterwards works just as well. Really, it's not like Noumi can read minds and he has no reason not to tell Taku unless he thinks Taku is too stupid to keep it a secret.

I think the most likely reason (at least after the situation with Noumi) is that, in his heightened emotional state, he's not sure if he can even trust Taku. There's still obvious unresolved tension regarding Chiyu. I think it's a bit much to expect him to act logical when he's kind of having an emotional breakdown; the fact that he catches some of his irrational behaviour in his inner thoughts as it happens rather than after the fact is actually fairly impressive.

Originally Posted by Haak

I don't see how that makes any sense. Him suddenly losing his wings isn't going to suddenly make the blackmailing any less flimsy. And if Haru cared so much about his wings that he''ll just let Chiyu become Noumi's pet then that's news to me too.

Besides Noumi did still talk about Haru still being under his thumb in the real world so no I don't think it's the case at all that Haru thought it was flimsy. I think Haru just attacked Noumi because he was just angry at what he was about to do to Chiyu. I've rewatched the scene and I don't think there's anything to suggest he attacked because he thought the blackmailing was flimsy. If that's what he actually thought then you think he would've said something.

No, I think he figured that defeating him soundly in the Accelerated World would prove that, though he may be useless in real life, in that world he's a "somebody". A sort of "I'll show him who's boss" move. This is why his defeat in the Accelerated World was so devastating, because now he really does feel powerless to do anything.

It isn't very clear to me what you expected Haru to be able to do about the situation with Noumi in real-life up to this point. But that's why Haru thought he could do something about it in the other world.

Originally Posted by Haak

I just think he was handed the Idiot Ball. And slowly grinding his HP down by dragging him across isn't even flashy anyway.

I don't think he was necessarily planning to drag him to death; his flying ability allowed him to pull off some rather flashy kills so far. I don't think he was handed the "Idiot Ball", but I think adrenaline and emotions cause people to not always take the safest route to victory. Plus, there shouldn't have been a problem pulling off that move anyway. Again, I think you may be expecting a bit much of someone his age and in his angry state.

I tend to think that all of Haru's actions make sense from an in-character perspective, even if they're not necessarily what we might think we'd do in his situation.

[molitar]

No Haru seems to have regressed past where he was before.. that is why it does not feel right. When he thought he still could do nothing and found out Taku had possibly planted a back door in Chiyu he was so pissed he would fight and maybe even lose to defend her as best friends/childhood friends that whose relationship is more like a brother and sister.

Problem is here he just stops caring and goes further than he ever was. Sure he maybe depressed but this is like a total reversal of his personality of doing what it takes to defend Chiyu. This is like cutting the root of him sure he was uncaring at times and hurt her feelings but immediately regretted it and fretted on how to apologize but here he doesn't even fret over apologizing and letting her be victimized. That is not his personality and does not fit with his past at all.

[Shimapan]

Originally Posted by KLGChaos

The problem isn't even really Haru's lack of self-esteem. Hell, I used to be the poster child for low self-esteem and depression, but I never once let it hold me down. Haru's biggest problem can be summed up in two words: big ego. Yes, it is possible to have a low self-esteem and a big ego at the same time. Actually, in most cases of the "emo teen", this is exactly what it is.

You've got a kid who's been picked on all his life and for some reason or another, feels the world owes him something because of it. When it doesn't happen, he goes into a spiraling depression. Haruyuki is a classic case of it. He makes big speeches about protecting Kuroyukihime's dream, but as soon as hardship comes, he gives up. He did it against the Red King. He did it again here.

Another sign is the way he doesn't believe his friends, no matter what they do. No matter how much KYH assure him that she loves only him, he still sees her as pitying him and doesn't believe it. His ego won't allow him to. When things don't go his way, he breaks down. When his friends try to help him, he automatically sees it as pity and he lashes out. And maybe it is pity.

His friends aren't helping him, either. Instead of giving into his "woe is me" tantrums, they need to stop enabling him. They need to help him realize that he needs to grow up, get over himself and realize the world doesn't revolve around his fat ass. They need to give him a swift kick in the nuts. Or rush him to a psychiatrist ASAP as he's got a lot more than self-esteem issues going on. He's got Borderline Personality disorder.

That's right to the point there. His arrogance and massive ego (which grew even more to Mount Everest proportions since he has the wings) are the *only* reason he lost to Dusk Taker
First, he easily beats up DT - probably because DT doesn't have much real combat experience. However, when DT is almost finished, what does he do? Finish him? No, he needs to stroke his massive ego first and drag him around, while expecting that DT does nothing and wait passively until it's over. DT of course isn't stupid and sees an opening, and gets back at an unsuspecting Silver Crow.
Really brought the loss about all by himself, just because stumbled over his massive ego. Had he finished DT right there, none of that would've happened. Even if DT would've fought back at the last moment, evading defeat, if haru had kept fighting, DT would've never been able to come close face-to-face (which seems to be neccessary for his special) to steal his wings.

With his wings gone, Haru turns instantly back into the spineless, disgusting wimp he was before, annoying the living daylights out of anyone.
Taku hitting him was the best he could do, this helped him pop out of his psychotic condition somewhat and go fight someone - which incidentally is Ash Roller, who all of a sudden is his best friend ever and tries to help him to overcome his Borderline syndrom and makes him meet some master, who will conveniently teach him some super ability with which to compensate the loss of his wings. Whee. Feels awfully constructed there

And what did he fight for in the first place? Some pathetic blackmail attempt, that no one with at least a tiny bit of common sense and a little bit of backbone would take for full. Only because Haru has neither, it worked on him.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by steven3242

speaking of avatar based on your most emotional/trauma feeling.


i wonder what make ash to have a motorcycle? did he have trauma against anything that has more than 2 wheels?

That is an interest point you brought up. Both Ash Roller and Sky Raker are the only ones I've noticed so far who are both riding on a mobile device. Ash Roller has a motorcycle, while Sky Raker is on a wheel chair.

Considering how young the characters are, Ash Roller most likely cannot drive a motorcycle in the real world on his own. Considering his looks, I bet his fear is a fear of death, maybe even a fear of riding a bicycle?

Sky Raker is probably has leg issues. However, she is also the closest to flying before Silver Crow came. Her special ability must be pretty awesome to overcome all that.

Originally Posted by supermegasonic

ofcourse when you finally find something, anything to help you get out of that crappy situation, anything to make you feel better, that object/person will be of the utmost importance. its the reason their feeling better.


haru's whole life was on that flying ability. take that away and were left with a shell. ofcourse he's gonna be like that.

Actually, I think that Haru's current whole life is helping KYH in any way that he can. His wings do help in that goal, but it is not all that he lives for. He just currently has forgotten his way and what his real desires are.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

What about Chiyu, who strings Taku along, shamelessly flirts with Haru in his presence, and dated a guy in love with her for whom she had no feelings simply to keep the boat from rocking?

Boy did I rage back then on this early on in the General thread.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Or what about dear old Taku, who spied on his girlfriend for two years, actually did betray his friends, that jumped to conclusions this episode and accused Haru of something rather insulting, and attacked a girl who was in a fucking coma?

LOL This one was an even bigger rage.

It is nice to see that Taku has grown out of this, but they sure like to use him as a background character almost. It would be nice if Taku and Haru can work together and resolve this as a team. Right now, with Haru going solo, it's probably not going to end well. Thank goodness for Ash Roller.

As for Chiyu, she still is essentially where she has been the whole series so far. They really have done little to resolve her story so far in the series. Hopefully, there will be a resolution by the time KYH comes back.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think the most likely reason (at least after the situation with Noumi) is that, in his heightened emotional state, he's not sure if he can even trust Taku. There's still obvious unresolved tension regarding Chiyu. I think it's a bit much to expect him to act logical when he's kind of having an emotional breakdown; the fact that he catches some of his irrational behaviour in his inner thoughts as it happens rather than after the fact is actually fairly impressive.

I've never even been remotely aware that Haru still had trust issues with Taku so this pretty much came out of nowhere. In fact I'm pretty sure he doesn't at all and that he was simply trying to hurt Taku.

But still, there's no reason why he didn't tell Taku about the mail before he went to see Noumi.

No, I think he figured that defeating him soundly in the Accelerated World would prove that, though he may be useless in real life, in that world he's a "somebody". A sort of "I'll show him who's boss" move. This is why his defeat in the Accelerated World was so devastating, because now he really does feel powerless to do anything.

It isn't very clear to me what you expected Haru to be able to do about the situation with Noumi in real-life up to this point. But that's why Haru thought he could do something about it in the other world.

Which clearly meant he must've felt powerless in the real world and which must've meant the blackmailing wasn't flimsy at all. Like I said, Noumi does still talk about Haru being under his thumb in the real world so I'm pretty sure that means the blackmailing him worked.

The only reason Haru attacked Noumi in the real world was when Noumi was about to do something horrible to Chiyu. He only attacked Noumi in Accel World when Noumi said "Let's fight" indicating that he actually wanted a proper duel.

I don't think he was necessarily planning to drag him to death; his flying ability allowed him to pull off some rather flashy kills so far. I don't think he was handed the "Idiot Ball", but I think adrenaline and emotions cause people to not always take the safest route to victory. Plus, there shouldn't have been a problem pulling off that move anyway. Again, I think you may be expecting a bit much of someone his age and in his angry state.

I tend to think that all of Haru's actions make sense from an in-character perspective, even if they're not necessarily what we might think we'd do in his situation.

So far Haru has shown to be a clever fighter. The fact that I found it weird that he would pass up the opportunity to just land another punch and finish him just so he could use his wings is evident that I do not think this makes sense in-character. Not only that you would've thought that if it was Haru being arrogant about his wings, then the story would've pointed it out in the usual way: By having a character specifically say it. But that never happened either. The only thing we got from Haru was "One more hit and he's finished". He never said "I'll really make him pay now" or something similar. Likewise all Noumi had to say was "You're better than I imagined". If Haru's arrogance was evident you've expected him to say something like that.

[FlameSparkZ]

Originally Posted by Shimapan

Really brought the loss about all by himself, just because stumbled over his massive ego. Had he finished DT right there, none of that would've happened. Even if DT would've fought back at the last moment, evading defeat, if haru had kept fighting, DT would've never been able to come close face-to-face (which seems to be neccessary for his special) to steal his wings.

Would he?
Silver Crow only has melee attacks, even if he hadn't used his wings and finished DT with a simple high jump kick, DT could've still used his tentacle arm to catch him mid-air...and probably use his special move.

Sure, this is only a possible outcome, but it could've happened.

Not to mention there was also the "plot device" (aka Field Effect) that activated when Silver Crow fell and the skeleton arms grabbed him.

Originally Posted by Haak

Which clearly meant he must've felt powerless in the real world and which must've meant the blackmailing wasn't flimsy at all. Like I said, Noumi does still talk about Haru being under his thumb in the real world so I'm pretty sure that means the blackmailing him worked.

Actually, what Noumi said was that back in reality, Haru was still being stepped on.

Truth is...

Spoiler for Anime vs Novel:

in the novel, when the match started, their duel avatars were in the same positions as their real selves.

[Haak]

Ah I see. I just read the Light Novel counterpart now and there's a few details that were decidedly missing in this episode.

Spoiler for Light Novel counterpart:

Ignoring the sneer laughter, Haruyuki immediately retorted.
“You also, can you still show me all that composure? Already, I know of your real face and name, now also your avatar name and appearance. That, don’t you think it’s about the same deadly information as that previous video from in front of the shower room?”
“Is this what you mean to say? If that video is made public, in return that will cost my «Reality Intrusion», to make other Burst Linkers attack me.”
“...Do I have any reason to hesitate?”
“Fufufu, scary. Well, I will admit that senpai also holds a card. But, to accept points, eventually this kind of «duel» is necessary. In this case... something else, I think I will accept from you.”

In an all too frequent conclusion it seems the animators are frequently leaving out important details like this, to the detriment of the storyline.

Even so, the reason he thinks Noumi's blackmailing is flimsy is not because it clearly wouldn't work, but because Haru could still hit back with his own blackmail. The truth is that the whole blackmailing nonsense is still pretty contrived.

There was also this:

Spoiler for Light Novel: Before the encounter with Noumi:

Unavoidably, Haruyuki thought that he would have to leave reporting to Takumu till after the direct meeting was over. Since the email clearly said to come alone. If Takumu was with him, Noumi might not appear.

Well I suppose that's partly okay except it still doesn't make sense for him to only leave the reporting until after the meeting. It's still helpful to make sure Taku knows in case something happens. The way he's saying it, it sounds like he sincerely believes nothing will happen which is just ridiculous.

And it's also clear from the Light Novel that the only reason he isn't telling Taku about his encounter afterwards is because he doesn't want Taku to find out that he lost his wings.

And reading the Novel version of the fight it seems even more clear to me that Haru wasn't battle raged to the point of stupidity. He was very clearly and constantly analysing the situations. It's also clear that he had fully intended to take his remaining HP by dragging him across the field.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Shimapan

Horribly flawed rant agreeing with another horribly flawed rant

Where's my Aspirin.

Originally Posted by molitar

No Haru seems to have regressed past where he was before.. that is why it does not feel right. When he thought he still could do nothing and found out Taku had possibly planted a back door in Chiyu he was so pissed he would fight and maybe even lose to defend her as best friends/childhood friends that whose relationship is more like a brother and sister.

Problem is here he just stops caring and goes further than he ever was. Sure he maybe depressed but this is like a total reversal of his personality of doing what it takes to defend Chiyu. This is like cutting the root of him sure he was uncaring at times and hurt her feelings but immediately regretted it and fretted on how to apologize but here he doesn't even fret over apologizing and letting her be victimized. That is not his personality and does not fit with his past at all.

Hm, interesting. I can see where you're coming from there. I might not agree, but it's nice to get a rational and thought-out criticism from someone.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Boy did I rage back then on this early on in the General thread.

Oh man, I have to go dig those posts up. Chiyu's a nice girl that doesn't mean to hurt anyone, but her accidental cukolding obliviousness is one of the most fun things about Accel World.

And Haak's newest post is interesting. Sounds like Haruyuki handled things quite a bit better in the Light Novel.

[Neki Ecko]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I guess that some people may have a hard time understanding why this is such a big deal from his perspective, and so may feel that -- from a storytelling perspective -- the author is having him regress too much. (i.e. We may look at the whole situation he's in and, from our perspective, it looks stupid, and his breakdown looks childish.) But I personally thought the same as you -- the way it played out here seemed perfectly natural to me. Having chronic low self-esteem is like suffering from depression; you can't just tell someone to "snap out of it". That doesn't mean it isn't frustrating to watch, but I think the character development is necessary.

That is my major malfunction with all the Haru hate. Sometimes you have to fall down to mountain to climb back up and become even stronger than before. Haru will be still be suffering for his trama for a while but he is learn that if he doesnt do anything about it, he will never grow as a person. Just like us in real life, even we fall down and have our moments we have to get back up and deal with it. Haru will be alright, and Ash Roller is good friend to SC.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Haak

Even so, the reason he thinks Noumi's blackmailing is flimsy is not because it clearly wouldn't work, but because Haru could still hit back with his own blackmail. The truth is that the whole blackmailing nonsense is still pretty contrived.

For whatever it's worth, I agree.

People in this thread weren't fuming at the Haru's character development. It's the all too convenient plot device to stir the plot which is a bit stretching. Other than some of the most basic human element, we shouldn't be able to relate to Haru. Yeah, at that age most of us are walking/breathing issues, but with the integration of that world with technology along with other social factors which aren't that obvious, we shouldn't be able to guess how it is developing the adolescent mind. Haru's world and circumstances are much different. His age doesn't help the argument much either considering the blackmailer is probably younger than him.

For me, all this had to take place because the plot required it. How it came about is what I don't like. And like a lot of people in the thread, understanding where Haru is coming from doesn't help at all at how it was brought about.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by monir

People in this thread weren't fuming at the Haru's character development. It's the all too convenient plot device to stir the plot which is a bit stretching. Other than some of the most basic human element, we shouldn't be able to relate to Haru. Yeah, at that age most of us are walking/breathing issues, but with the integration of that world with technology along with other social factors which aren't that obvious, we shouldn't be able to guess how it is developing the adolescent mind. Haru's world and circumstances are much different. His age doesn't help the argument much either considering the blackmailer is probably younger than him.

For me, all this had to take place because the plot required it. How it came about is what I don't like. And like a lot of people in the thread, understanding where Haru is coming from doesn't help at all at how it was brought about.

Even saying this I realize that it's a self-defeating argument, but I guess I saw it as "the ends justify the means". Yes, this whole thing with Noumi is contrived and unnecessary. They could have kept on advancing the plot without all this turmoil and it would have been just fine. But I can see that putting Haru through this situation will cause him to be a stronger character over the long run. Given the situation he was in, I could identify with his characterization, and it seemed consistent with what was portrayed thus far.

I think what I disagreed with most strongly was when people called this a "regression", or like his character development was going backwards. I feel pretty strongly that something like this was necessary to bring his character forward. Now, if we want to argue that there would have been other much better ways of accomplishing the same goals that wouldn't have required some random antagonist appearing out of nowhere and being an unjustifiably extreme jerk... well, yeah, I can buy that. There is no doubt at all that Noumi is all measures of annoying, and isn't really a well-written character (at least to this point). But I don't really care about Noumi, personally. I just appreciate the development that Haru is going through and where I think this story will result.

So all that to say, I guess different people value different things. I see what people are mad about, but what I liked about the episode was different than what others disliked.

[FLCL]

What an Awesome fucking anime. Quickly caught up from episode 1 the past few days and am deeply intrigued. Hopefully this will end well.