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Old 2014-08-09, 17:07   Link #34481
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
That is why I say "only need to".
No I mean, the 5 times a day is the barest minimum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster
Oh, I know that it is practiced by many Muslims, but extremism is about being at the edge of some spectrum, which is usually subjectively defined. I'm just pointing out that some people could think that some religious practice or belief is extreme without there actually being hatred or anger involved on the part of the people who follow such beliefs or practices.
I get what you're saying, but it's semantics really. These days, "extremists" generally means the violent, hateful sect of a group, be it religious, political, or whatever.
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Old 2014-08-09, 17:44   Link #34482
monster
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I get what you're saying, but it's semantics really. These days, "extremists" generally means the violent, hateful sect of a group, be it religious, political, or whatever.
Well, violence aside, people can have different views on what is hateful.

For example, people who are against redefining marriage are sometimes considered hateful (and I don't deny that some of them do seem to display some degree of hatred), but is the act of taking that position enough of a qualification to lump them together with people who actually wish harm on those with a different sexual preference/identity?

To put it more generally, is the act of opposing some position enough to identify one as an extremist on the basis of some idea of hate?

I think when people like to throw around pejoratives against other people, the semantics actually becomes more important.
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Old 2014-08-09, 17:45   Link #34483
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
[...]
A "Christian" extremist would be active-preaching Jehovah Witnesses, who believe that their religion is true and all others are fake, then take active measures to implement their religion upon others.
[...]
Wait a moment... There are actually religions that DO NOT say that their religion is the only right one, while the others are all false? Tell me what they are called! They must be very tolerant, if not even acceptant!

Jokes aside, there are only few real extremist religions/sects/cults in existence, like perhaps "Satanism". Aside from that, it is usually a minority of people of a non-extremist religion that are the actual extremists. But sometimes the number of those extremists can reach very high numbers for certain reasons. In the case of the Muslims we have the "fight against America and the West who are the cause of all poverty in the middle east". For Christianity we had the Inquisitions and even more importantly the Crusades in the past. It uses a snowball effect of "your neighbour does it, so you should as well!"

But in the end it is all just an excuse for violence. It is easier to slaughter innocent people when you think that it is "just" and you gain 72 virigins for a suicide attack. I am sure a lot of people were actually against it, but were "pressured" into joining that "holy war" and after some time, the conditioning kicks in and the person would probably even kill his own family "for the cause"...
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Old 2014-08-09, 17:50   Link #34484
monster
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Wait a moment... There are actually religions that DO NOT say that their religion is the only right one, while the others are all false? Tell me what they are called! They must be very tolerant, if not even acceptant!
Any worldview, be it religious or secular, that makes a truth claim is naturally exclusive by virtue of denying anything that opposes the truth that is being claimed.
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Old 2014-08-09, 22:29   Link #34485
ChainLegacy
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Yeah, but there's different degrees of "truth," in this context, like how Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet but not the Messiah, or how Christianity accepts the Torah but disagrees with Judaism that the Messiah has come. Since they disagree, you could say they consider each other "false," but I'd say it's more like they consider certain issues false as opposed to the entire religion. Then within all of the major world religions there are of course various denominations/sects that branch off from certain shared tenets with differences such as all the different Christian denominations or the many forms of Buddhism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Eh, you can take this goes all the way through to the Soviet-Afghan war if you want for this particular organization's origin. Ultimately, as I've noted in a separate thread, the fundamental problem at the core has always been how the countries were arbitrarily created by the Europeans after the fall of the Ottomans.

It's a lot easier for extremists to recruit and continue to carry out attacks against their own civilian populations when said civilians view each other as different sects first, rather than fellow countrymen.

ISIS did not truly take off until Syria, and frankly, if your point was that the casualties caused by the US is what led to people wanting to join the jihad for revenge - why are they joining groups that are focused on killing their own people instead?
You're right that most of the problems can be traced back to the fall of the Ottomans (the same arbitrary carving is also responsible for a lot of problems in Africa), though by that logic you could continue tracing every geopolitical event back to the Bronze Age as they're all connected on some level. That aside, there's definitely huge blowback from Western meddling in the Middle East, particularly in the 20th century, but America could always have chosen to stop disregarding Washington and take a step back from the world police role.
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Old 2014-08-09, 23:31   Link #34486
monster
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Since they disagree, you could say they consider each other "false," but I'd say it's more like they consider certain issues false as opposed to the entire religion.
That said, certain issues are more central/fundamental to a worldview than others.
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Old 2014-08-10, 00:43   Link #34487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Wait a moment... There are actually religions that DO NOT say that their religion is the only right one, while the others are all false? Tell me what they are called! They must be very tolerant, if not even acceptant!
Islam actually does. Prophet Muhammad, as written in the Quran, actually extended his protection to non-Muslims (namely the people of the book under Surah 2:224).

If Islam does, most of the other Abrahamic religions do. They are from the same book after all; just rewritten in another language and form, bits and pieces excluded here and there for all purposes.

Quote:
1 Corinthians 10:31-32 "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, orwhatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:"
Quote:
Micah 4:3-5 "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hat spoken it. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever." (KJV)
Quote:
Jokes aside, there are only few real extremist religions/sects/cults in existence, like perhaps "Satanism". Aside from that, it is usually a minority of people of a non-extremist religion that are the actual extremists. But sometimes the number of those extremists can reach very high numbers for certain reasons. In the case of the Muslims we have the "fight against America and the West who are the cause of all poverty in the middle east". For Christianity we had the Inquisitions and even more importantly the Crusades in the past. It uses a snowball effect of "your neighbour does it, so you should as well!"

But in the end it is all just an excuse for violence. It is easier to slaughter innocent people when you think that it is "just" and you gain 72 virigins for a suicide attack. I am sure a lot of people were actually against it, but were "pressured" into joining that "holy war" and after some time, the conditioning kicks in and the person would probably even kill his own family "for the cause"...
It is more than just tolerance; which can take the form of ignorance. It is about accepting people who are different from you, whether they be ill or of a different religion.

I do believe in opinion as an entitlement. If you want someone to give up his entitlement, you better come up with good reasoning to do so. Agreement can be subjective because sometimes, people can agree in parts but disagree with the whole picture, and vice-versa.

Islamic State militants tell 300 Yazidi families: convert or die

Quote:
(Reuters) - Islamic State militants have threatened to kill more than 300 families from Iraq's Yazidi ethnic minority unless they convert to Islam, witnesses and a Yazidi lawmaker told Reuters on Saturday.

The families in the villages of Koja, Hatimiya and Qaboshi are surrounded by the Sunni militants who are mounting an offensive through northern Iraq which has sent tens of thousands of Yazidis and Christians fleeing for their lives, prompting international outrage.
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2014-08-10 at 00:56.
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Old 2014-08-10, 10:15   Link #34488
Hiss13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Wait a moment... There are actually religions that DO NOT say that their religion is the only right one, while the others are all false? Tell me what they are called! They must be very tolerant, if not even acceptant!

Jokes aside, there are only few real extremist religions/sects/cults in existence, like perhaps "Satanism". Aside from that, it is usually a minority of people of a non-extremist religion that are the actual extremists. But sometimes the number of those extremists can reach very high numbers for certain reasons. In the case of the Muslims we have the "fight against America and the West who are the cause of all poverty in the middle east". For Christianity we had the Inquisitions and even more importantly the Crusades in the past. It uses a snowball effect of "your neighbour does it, so you should as well!"

But in the end it is all just an excuse for violence. It is easier to slaughter innocent people when you think that it is "just" and you gain 72 virigins for a suicide attack. I am sure a lot of people were actually against it, but were "pressured" into joining that "holy war" and after some time, the conditioning kicks in and the person would probably even kill his own family "for the cause"...
Religuous extremism remains for every religion. Muslim extremism involves violence. Christian extremism involves attempting to force the Bible onto everyone using politics in a supposedly secular state (more common) as well as its own fringe violence groups. It's really not that there are only a few. It's that there are quite a few. Hell, it's to the point where classic '90's Satanism has become a thing of the past and that the most you hear of Satanists are the Satanic Temple trolling the Christian extremists.

But, it's as you say. When it comes to extremism, religion is used as nothing more than a means to justify violence and bigotry. The sad part is that most people actually believe that their destructive actions are just.

As Steven Weinberg once said: With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
but were "pressured" into joining that "holy war" and after some time, the conditioning kicks in and the person would probably even kill his own family "for the cause"...
Have you watched Gundam 00? Just wondering. This bit is something that screams Gundam 00 to me.
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Old 2014-08-10, 12:42   Link #34489
maplehurry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
To put it more generally, is the act of opposing some position enough to identify one as an extremist on the basis of some idea of hate?

I think when people like to throw around pejoratives against other people, the semantics actually becomes more important.
eh, I haven't really met anyone who would call others extremists for simply being against gay marriage or abortion.

How often do you actually see someone who do ??

"I am against gay marriage."

"wow, you are so extreme !"

Not even on Internet have I ever witnessed something like that. Like I would only find those by specifically googling them, but never come upon them naturally in several other politics forums that I frequented.

But are you sure you are not blowing this semantic issue out of proportion by some overreaction of a small minority of population ?

Last edited by maplehurry; 2014-08-10 at 13:18.
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Old 2014-08-10, 14:01   Link #34490
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Hiss13 View Post
Have you watched Gundam 00? Just wondering. This bit is something that screams Gundam 00 to me.
I did not. Actually I did not even watch a single Gundam series, even though I have no problems with Mechas in general.



But in the end the affected one does not give a damn about the "reasons". The jews killed in the 2nd WW, the witches burned on the stakes in the Middle Ages, the victims from terrorist bombings. No matter if the victims were killed due to "religions" or "ideologies", in the end most of the surviving friends and relatives of the victims did surely never say "well they did it for what they thought is right, it was all due to circumstances, wrong place, wrong time, what a tragedy", but rather "OMG THOSE BASTARDS! KILL THEM ALL! MAKE THEM PAY! REVENGE!"

But sometimes time could lessen the effects enough for the perpetrators, or rather the "grunts", to be forgiven for not having a backbone to refuse their orders (like the Germans after WW2), but that does not always apply.
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Old 2014-08-10, 17:09   Link #34491
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiss13 View Post
With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil that takes religion.
Well, it's really a matter of ideology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
eh, I haven't really met anyone who would call others extremists for simply being against gay marriage or abortion.

How often do you actually see someone who do ??

"I am against gay marriage."

"wow, you are so extreme !"

Not even on Internet have I ever witnessed something like that. Like I would only find those by specifically googling them, but never come upon them naturally in several other politics forums that I frequented.

But are you sure you are not blowing this semantic issue out of proportion by some overreaction of a small minority of population ?
I've heard it from people who try to defend their religion from nonbelievers on account of the stance of others of the same faith on such controversial topics, but you're right, violence is the most common trigger for the label.
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Old 2014-08-11, 11:30   Link #34492
SaintessHeart
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Israelis, Palestinians begin new talks to end Gaza war

Quote:
"God knows if it is permanent," said Abu Salama, a resident of Gaza's Shejaia district, as he and his family headed home on a donkey cart. "A truce, no truce, it is becoming like Tom and Jerry. We want a solution," he said.
Quote:
A Turkish aid group said it would send ships again to challenge the Israeli blockade of Gaza, four years after Israeli commandos stormed its flotilla bound for the Palestinian territory and killed 10 people in fighting with activists on board.
Apparently some people don't want the conflict to end. Stop adding fuel to the fire, bloody egomaniacs.
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Old 2014-08-11, 18:31   Link #34493
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Comedian Robin Williams dead, sheriff says

Quote:
(CNN) -- Comedic actor Robin Williams died at his Northern California home Monday, law enforcement officials said. Williams was 63.
Coroner investigators suspect "the death to be a suicide due to asphyxia," according to a statement from the Marin County, California, Sheriff's office.
"Robin Williams passed away this morning," his media representative Mara Buxbaum told CNN.

"He has been battling severe depression of late. This is a tragic and sudden loss. The family respectfully asks for their privacy as they grieve during this very difficult time."

Williams married graphic designer Susan Schneider in Napa Valley, California, ceremony in October 2011. Schneider sent a written statement to CNN through the representative.

"This morning, I lost my husband and my best friend, while the world lost one of its most beloved artists and beautiful human beings. I am utterly heartbroken.
"On behalf of Robin's family, we are asking for privacy during our time of profound grief. As he is remembered, it is our hope the focus will not be on Robin's death, but on the countless moments of joy and laughter he gave to millions."

R.I.P. Peter Pan (I actually enjoyed that movie).
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Old 2014-08-11, 19:27   Link #34494
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Now that is sad news. A lot of comedy came out of that man.
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Old 2014-08-12, 02:16   Link #34495
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As though there wasn't already enough trouble with the ISIS situation .......


Power struggle on Baghdad streets as Maliki replaced but refuses to go:

"Iraq's president named a new prime minister to end Nuri al-Maliki's eight-year rule
on Monday, but the veteran leader refused to go after deploying militias and special
forces on the streets, creating a dangerous political showdown in Baghdad."

See:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0G808J20140811
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Old 2014-08-12, 02:33   Link #34496
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Originally Posted by sikvod00 View Post
Comedian Robin Williams dead, sheriff says




R.I.P. Peter Pan (I actually enjoyed that movie).
I'll always remember him for roles like the teacher in Dead Poets Society. RIP sir.
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Old 2014-08-12, 05:04   Link #34497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
That depends on the actual fundamentals of the religion.
Humans are violent, religion just gives them an excuse to kill. Just look at the extremist buddhist in Sri Lanka and Myanmar. I'm a beliver that religion follows cultural norms, not the other way round.
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Old 2014-08-12, 05:34   Link #34498
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JokerD View Post
Humans are violent, religion just gives them an excuse to kill. Just look at the extremist buddhist in Sri Lanka and Myanmar. I'm a beliver that religion follows cultural norms, not the other way round.
Look on the bright side. The practice of righteousness in religion allows us to control the world population when they kill each other to prove themselves right.
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Old 2014-08-12, 07:36   Link #34499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post
As though there wasn't already enough trouble with the ISIS situation .......


Power struggle on Baghdad streets as Maliki replaced but refuses to go:

"Iraq's president named a new prime minister to end Nuri al-Maliki's eight-year rule
on Monday, but the veteran leader refused to go after deploying militias and special
forces on the streets, creating a dangerous political showdown in Baghdad."

See:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0G808J20140811
Talking about ISIS, some extremeist in my country, Indonesia has creating a group which has connection with ISIS (and with same name). All thing they talking about just jihad this and jihad that (and i guarantee they're don't even know what is jihad means), they say jihad more important than their family & child.

i hope no one from us here joining a group like this
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Old 2014-08-12, 08:16   Link #34500
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PantsuSister View Post
Talking about ISIS, some extremeist in my country, Indonesia has creating a group which has connection with ISIS (and with same name). All thing they talking about just jihad this and jihad that (and i guarantee they're don't even know what is jihad means), they say jihad more important than their family & child.

i hope no one from us here joining a group like this
Call Ridwan to talk to them. Then prepare popcorn.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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