[Manga] Chapter 242 Discussion

[Lackadaisical]

Originally Posted by socomberetta

I based my opinion on what we've seen in the manga, and that is, Konoha as a whole, defeating two hidden villages. No other village can say the same.

Juggiman wanted to know if it was safe to say that the Leaf is the strongest village based on given information, and based on what Ive seen in the manga, they are.

You say the Mist has shown 3 ninjas of skill, well, how does that go to show that that Village as a whole is stronger than the Leaf when we havent seen what the Mist's entire forces are capable of?

The same goes for the Cloud, Stone, and Grass Villages. Until I see evidence that either village's combined forces are on par with or stronger than the Leaf, Im going to assume the Leaf is the strongest.

And about the situation with the Hyuuga and the Cloud:
You interpret the Third's decision to mean that the Cloud is equal in power to the Leaf, and that's fine, but I dont see it that way.

The Third is a wise leader, and obviously cares about the citizens under his care. So, given the choices of giving up one life to spare misery and death for the non-military citizens of Konoha by starting a war with the Cloud, I could understand why he would allow Hizashi to give up his life. I dont see anything in his decision that suggests the Cloud is stronger or equal to the Leaf.

So, even though we have only seen one battle, you can say that the Leaf is the strongest just because they won that one battle?

Yet I can't hypothesis that the Mist, by virtue of their village having produced three high level ninjas in the story without their village even being central to the plot, is going to be extremely powerful?

As for the Cloud treaty, as mentioned, it was a truce. If the Leaf was stronger than the Cloud why did they need to sign a truce in the first place?

[Animizzle]

The Mist village has also been reffered to as "powerfull" by Kabuto when he explained how Kimmimaro's clan was wiped out by the water country.

[DangerousOne]

Originally Posted by Lackadaisical

So, even though we have only seen one battle, you can say that the Leaf is the strongest just because they won that one battle?

Yet I can't hypothesis that the Mist, by virtue of their village having produced three high level ninjas in the story without their village even being central to the plot, is going to be extremely powerful?

As for the Cloud treaty, as mentioned, it was a truce. If the Leaf was stronger than the Cloud why did they need to sign a truce in the first place?

Well in the exams it showed that the leaf had the most ninja's, Kabuto explained how it was suppose to represent the power of a village...could be down to the fact that it was taking place in the leaf though.

Its also been stated that the hokage is the strongest of all the kages. That is with the hokage far past his prime...

As for the mist, well when you have a guy like Zabuza attempting to take over the country...it just dont go down too well. I cant imagine anyone at Kakashi lvl attempting to take out the hokage...lol. Also whats this 3 very strong ninjas coming from the mist? I only know of 1 and thats Zabuza...not sure what lvl Kinimaro is in comparison to leaf jounins...Haku is genin/chunnin lvl.

[MiniSilverTiger]

Originally Posted by DangerousOne

Well in the exams it showed that the leaf had the most ninja's, Kabuto explained how it was suppose to represent the power of a village...could be down to the fact that it was taking place in the leaf though.

Its also been stated that the hokage is the strongest of all the kages. That is with the hokage far past his prime...

As for the mist, well when you have a guy like Zabuza attempting to take over the country...it just dont go down too well. I cant imagine anyone at Kakashi lvl attempting to take out the hokage...lol. Also whats this 3 very strong ninjas coming from the mist? I only know of 1 and thats Zabuza...not sure what lvl Kinimaro is in comparison to leaf jounins...Haku is genin/chunnin lvl.

I thought the manga said that kakashi couldn't even beat Haku for some reason, and Kakashi agreed too

[socomberetta]

Originally Posted by Lackadaisical

So, even though we have only seen one battle, you can say that the Leaf is the strongest just because they won that one battle?

Like I said before, based on what Ive seen in the manga, I believe the Leaf is the strongest Hidden Village. Maybe not now, since the war, but definitely before.

Yet I can't hypothesis that the Mist, by virtue of their village having produced three high level ninjas in the story without their village even being central to the plot, is going to be extremely powerful?

I never said that they weren't powerful, because of the three high-level ninjas that are from the Mist. I was questioning whether their total might would be a match for the Leaf.

Also, if you want to base the Mist's overall strength on the quality of ninja they've produced, then theyre nothing compared to the Leaf who've produced, the Yondaime, Itachi, Orochimaru, Tsunade, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Sakumo Hatake, Sarutobi, Nidaime, and Shodaime. All of whom were shown as being extremely powerful. Definitely moreso than Zabuza and Haku and maybe even Kisame.

As for the Cloud treaty, as mentioned, it was a truce. If the Leaf was stronger than the Cloud why did they need to sign a truce in the first place?

Perhaps the war was costing too much on both sides, and each party decided that a truce would be the best option to end the war. Some time has passed after that war and the incident involving Hinata, so we don't know what the Cloud are capable of now.

[kazumaofshellbullet]

Originally Posted by DangerousOne

Well in the exams it showed that the leaf had the most ninja's, Kabuto explained how it was suppose to represent the power of a village...could be down to the fact that it was taking place in the leaf though.

The exams didn't show anyone from mist or cloud participate as far as I can remember so the chuunin exams are seriously flawed. Also numbers don't matter if they in general don't have much skills or when you have individuals with as much skill as yondaimei, sannins, kakashi, itachi, etc...

Its also been stated that the hokage is the strongest of all the kages. That is with the hokage far past his prime...

As for the mist, well when you have a guy like Zabuza attempting to take over the country...it just dont go down too well. I cant imagine anyone at Kakashi lvl attempting to take out the hokage...lol. Also whats this 3 very strong ninjas coming from the mist? I only know of 1 and thats Zabuza...not sure what lvl Kinimaro is in comparison to leaf jounins...Haku is genin/chunnin lvl.

I would say mist is prolly the strongest village out of all the hidden villages. Haku was capable enough to kill every single one of the current konoha jounins one on one while he was only 12 yrs old(i think). We all can already tell what zabuza was capable of doing. Kimimaro which was shown in the manga was on life support when he fought gaara and even then he almost killed gaara. I doubt if any of the current konoha jounins except for gai and kakashi can survive against him. You are also forgetting about kisame who is part of the seven mist swordsman who are all S-rank criminals.

At the ending note all the 4 mist nins we have seen so far are either jounin level or hokage level.

[nh1]

Originally Posted by kazumaofshellbullet

I would say mist is prolly the strongest village out of all the hidden villages. Haku was capable enough to kill every single one of the current konoha jounins one on one while he was only 12 yrs old(i think).

I kind of doubt that although Kakashi did say some weird things (but since Sasuke could avoid Haku's attacks with 2/1 dot Sharingan and not even Lee speed, which also probably is still slower than Kakashi's, I think it was exaggerated).

We all can already tell what zabuza was capable of doing.

He was defeated by a Konoha jounin, how does that make Mist stronger?

Kimimaro which was shown in the manga was on life support when he fought gaara and even then he almost killed gaara. I doubt if any of the current konoha jounins except for gai and kakashi can survive against him.

I believe you underestimate the Konoha jounin, although Kimimaro displayed quite a show, you know very little about what any of the other Konoha jounins are capable of and how they'd handle in that situation. Who knows what genjutsus are out there.

You are also forgetting about kisame who is part of the seven mist swordsman who are all S-rank criminals.

They're just as much Mist ninjas as Itachi and Orochimaru are Konoha ninjas.

At the ending note all the 4 mist nins we have seen so far are either jounin level or hokage level.

Devil brothers? Would there be need to show anyone else? Have we seen mist nins of Kage level?

[DangerousOne]

Originally Posted by MiniSilverTiger

I thought the manga said that kakashi couldn't even beat Haku for some reason, and Kakashi agreed too

lol, zabuza said that..he obviously had alot of faith in Kakashi. To the person above, Haku was about 14-15...Kakashi had faith in Sasuke/Naruto to beat Haku, you saying he thinks sasuke can beat him? Sasuke at that time couldnt even touch Kakashi and only half sharingan, in the manga it made it pretty clear that sasuke could have taken Haku had it not been for Naruto(sacrifice). Dont tell me that a pre-exam Sasuke who got his ass whooped so bad by Lee could take Kakashi then. With a much more developed sharingan, haku would never be able to hit kakashi...not to mention hes much faster than Sasuke so could just chidori out of the ice cage if he even gets caught in it.

About kinimaro, what proof you got? We saw how easily Gai dispersed of Gaara's sand...

Oh yea I forgot Kisame...but who is he taking orders from? Itachi, a konoha jounin...lol.

None of the mist are Kage lvl, Zabuza and kimi are jounin lvl. Kisame knew very clearly he did not stand a chance against Jiraiya, Jiraiya is hokage lvl.

[Nine Devil]

Kimi is I think a high level chuunin.

Btw Itachi is a chuunin hehe

[Satoru]

UCHIHA ITACHI

[Animizzle]

Originally Posted by kazumaofshellbullet

Kimimaro which was shown in the manga was on life support when he fought gaara and even then he almost killed gaara. I doubt if any of the current konoha jounins except for gai and kakashi can survive against him.
You are also forgetting about kisame who is part of the seven mist swordsman who are all S-rank criminals.

I don't know how everybody thinks Kimmimaro is supposedly weaker because he acted on his will alone..
He commented multiple times on how he understood more about this anthology life form. He states that he is no longer bound by his body as a prison and talks about it a good way.
Besides, the only time when we saw actually saw him have a disadvantage due to his disease is when he..well..died because of it.
Personally I believe any jounin in Konoha could mop the floor with Kimmimaro, the tricky thing is his bone ability, which is rather hard to counter.

Originally Posted by Nina Devil

Btw Itachi is a chuunin hehe

Actually he is a missing-nin, and lost his rank when he left konoha

[aFlipGuy]

Originally Posted by Animizzle

Well since Ibiki is 27, being a kid probably means when he was a young shinobi-otherwise he would't have seen Orochimaru that often-. Means age 8-10, which proves Raikage's guess al the more correct.

you cant just asume that being a child means age 8-10, for all we know he could be 5 or 7.

[Satoru]

I think Rin is cuter than Sakura-chan.

[aFlipGuy]

you guys ever thought that rin could be naruto's mother? ^____^ maybe the bandages on her cheeks is concealing the 3 stripes that naruto has. maybe one night, her and the 4th got a little tipsy and ^_____^ use ur imagination

[Satoru]

Originally Posted by aFlipGuy

you guys ever thought that rin could be naruto's mother? ^____^ maybe the bandages on her cheeks is concealing the 3 stripes that naruto has. maybe one night, her and the 4th got a little tipsy and ^_____^ use ur imagination

Well, I think Anko is Naruto's mother. There have been many hints...

[kazumaofshellbullet]

Originally Posted by nh1

I kind of doubt that although Kakashi did say some weird things (but since Sasuke could avoid Haku's attacks with 2/1 dot Sharingan and not even Lee speed, which also probably is still slower than Kakashi's, I think it was exaggerated).

You do know that zabuza said it himself that haku was a better match against kakashi than himself when he was fighting kakashi. I wonder which statement is right.

He was defeated by a Konoha jounin, how does that make Mist stronger?

Sure zabuza was defeated by a konoha jounin but he was defeated by the best of the konoha jounin while we definitely know for sure that zabuza wasn't the best of mist jounin. Even though zabuza wasn't the best mist jounin he did come quite close to killing kakashi and team 7 which says alot by itself.

I believe you underestimate the Konoha jounin

I don't think I am wrong in estimating the worth of the current jounins of konoha. As someone said before konoha lost half its strenght in that little mini war without the participation of gaara and with jiraiya's help. Sand(dying village) and sound(tiny just born village) didn't even bring in all the troops that they wanted to since they would have gotten caught but all I can say is that if they got beat(barely won) in their own hometown than they aren't the strongest village. The credit goes to konoha in creating such strong nins like sannins, itachi, hokages, kakashi and his dad but than thats like 10 strong guys to like 10,000 weak guys.

although Kimimaro displayed quite a show, you know very little about what any of the other Konoha jounins are capable of and how they'd handle in that situation. Who knows what genjutsus are out there.

oh come on kimimaro has so much experience fighting that he could tell how lee was gonna attack him and where without sharingan and he also has indestructible body so I am pretty sure that he could handle just about any konoha jounin and the only possible jounin that might be a trouble for him would be kakashi. We know that oro crushed anko and kimimaro was oro's choice for his next vessel which obviously tells us something about kimi's abilities and potential.

They're just as much Mist ninjas as Itachi and Orochimaru are Konoha ninjas.

What I was getting at was that mist village has shown us like 6 nins out of which 4 of them are at jounin/kage level while we have seen hundreds of konoha nins but very few of them are jounin level and even the ones who are jounins are quite lacking in skill which would make konoha the strongest village.

Devil brothers? Would there be need to show anyone else? Have we seen mist nins of Kage level?

Kisame could very well be a kage level nin. He wasn't even going full throttle against kurenai and asuma and he was able to overwhelm them. Another thing is we can all guess pretty accurately that each member of akatsuki is a kage level nin or atleast a sannin level. The way they were talking about taking care of oro is another clue towards each one of them being kage level.

lol, zabuza said that..he obviously had alot of faith in Kakashi. To the person above, Haku was about 14-15...Kakashi had faith in Sasuke/Naruto to beat Haku, you saying he thinks sasuke can beat him? Sasuke at that time couldnt even touch Kakashi and only half sharingan, in the manga it made it pretty clear that sasuke could have taken Haku had it not been for Naruto(sacrifice). Dont tell me that a pre-exam Sasuke who got his ass whooped so bad by Lee could take Kakashi then. With a much more developed sharingan, haku would never be able to hit kakashi...not to mention hes much faster than Sasuke so could just chidori out of the ice cage if he even gets caught in it.

Read my above statement and I think I will go with what kishimoto said than your little theory there.

About kinimaro, what proof you got? We saw how easily Gai dispersed of Gaara's sand...

I dunno read above to what I said. As for gaara and kimimaro comparison is completely wrong since one of them uses offense and the other uses defense. Another thing is that taijutsu is useless against kimimaro unless you want to break your hand or get impaled by tens of hundreds of bones.

Oh yea I forgot Kisame...but who is he taking orders from? Itachi, a konoha jounin...lol.

Itachi is a chuunin just to let you know and who says that he is taking orders. Itachi said it himself that akatsuki has no leaders and no hierarchy. Listening is completely dif than you being ordered around.

None of the mist are Kage lvl, Zabuza and kimi are jounin lvl. Kisame knew very clearly he did not stand a chance against Jiraiya, Jiraiya is hokage lvl.

I meant kage level and kisame just being part of akatsuki shows that he could very well be a kage level nin. Another thing is that itachi told kisame to be careful against jiraiya and that there was no guarantee that both of them would survive if they fought jiraiya with itachi running low on chakra.

[Animizzle]

Originally Posted by aFlipGuy

you cant just asume that being a child means age 8-10, for all we know he could be 5 or 7.

True enough, but all the more reason to disregard the aformentioned guess of it being only 10 years ago that Orochimaru left.

[Satoru]

Originally Posted by kazumaofshellbullet

Sure zabuza was defeated by a konoha jounin but he was defeated by the best of the konoha jounin while we definitely know for sure that zabuza wasn't the best of mist jounin. Even though zabuza wasn't the best mist jounin he did come quite close to killing kakashi and team 7 which says alot by itself.

Now wait a minute. Zabuza never came close to kill Kakashi.
Kakashi was at a huge disadvantage because Zabuza could attack his genins and Tazuna forcing him to jump in and create an opening. However, Kakashi beat the shit out of him and Haku had to save Zabuza's life twice. Also, Kakashi wasn't even near his prime during that fight.

Kisame isn't kage lvl...you a mist fanboy or what?
he's one of the mist's seven strongest...and I'm sure the mist have weak nins, too. There's no point in introducing them in the manga though...

[DangerousOne]

Originally Posted by kazumaofshellbullet

Sure zabuza was defeated by a konoha jounin but he was defeated by the best of the konoha jounin while we definitely know for sure that zabuza wasn't the best of mist jounin. Even though zabuza wasn't the best mist jounin he did come quite close to killing kakashi and team 7 which says alot by itself.


oh come on kimimaro has so much experience fighting that he could tell how lee was gonna attack him and where without sharingan and he also has indestructible body so I am pretty sure that he could handle just about any konoha jounin and the only possible jounin that might be a trouble for him would be kakashi. We know that oro crushed anko and kimimaro was oro's choice for his next vessel which obviously tells us something about kimi's abilities and potential.



What I was getting at was that mist village has shown us like 6 nins out of which 4 of them are at jounin/kage level while we have seen hundreds of konoha nins but very few of them are jounin level and even the ones who are jounins are quite lacking in skill which would make konoha the strongest village.



Kisame could very well be a kage level nin. He wasn't even going full throttle against kurenai and asuma and he was able to overwhelm them. Another thing is we can all guess pretty accurately that each member of akatsuki is a kage level nin or atleast a sannin level. The way they were talking about taking care of oro is another clue towards each one of them being kage level.



Read my above statement and I think I will go with what kishimoto said than your little theory there.



I dunno read above to what I said. As for gaara and kimimaro comparison is completely wrong since one of them uses offense and the other uses defense. Another thing is that taijutsu is useless against kimimaro unless you want to break your hand or get impaled by tens of hundreds of bones.



Itachi is a chuunin just to let you know and who says that he is taking orders. Itachi said it himself that akatsuki has no leaders and no hierarchy. Listening is completely dif than you being ordered around.



I meant kage level and kisame just being part of akatsuki shows that he could very well be a kage level nin. Another thing is that itachi told kisame to be careful against jiraiya and that there was no guarantee that both of them would survive if they fought jiraiya with itachi running low on chakra.

How do you know Zabuza isnt the best of Mist jounins? He seems to be very famous in the same ranks as Kakashi. So far strongest Mist we know is Kisame and their kage, were told that hokage is strongest of all kages and as for Kisame..just take a look at his partner...

Kishimoto did not say Haku can beat kakashi, Zabuza did. If Kishimoto stated it on character book as an author then yes thats true but he didnt. He said from Zabuza point of view. If we go by your logic then Mr.Satan is stronger than Goku in dbz since he stated that hes the strongest...geez. Characters makes assumptions all the time, viewers make assumptions based on what they see. To say Haku can beat kakashi is simply ridiculous...

Kinimaro's advantage was his indestructible bones and the fact that no physical attack could hurt him or so they say. That makes him perfect match against a Taijutsu specialist such as Lee. Gaara only uses physical attack aswell. Most jounins I would assume knows enough gengutsu...someone like kurenei would slaughter him.

We are shown 6 mist, 3 are jounin lvl and 1 is chunin. Now in the leaf's corner we have Jiraiya, oro, Tsunade, Itachi, the 3rd, white fang. Going by info alone, not one of the mist could match up with any of them. Another thing, if the 2 demon brothers are already chunnins and we have 12 genins from leaf whowould mop the floor with them...thats gotta say something..

Kisame is not kage lvl. He stated that he didnt stand a chance against Jiraiya but perhaps Itachi could. He was scratched by Asuma..lol. PPL keep saying he wasnt going all out, LOL...did we see Asuma go all out anyone? Also no, akatsuki does not mean sannin lvl or kage lvl. Oro was apparently strongest in the group and left cos Itachi entered and he thought Itachi was stronger than him. Just cos they talk about taking oro out doesnt mean their on the same par as him...they planned to take him out altogether, lol. I bet 9 kakashi's could probably take out oro too... Anyways, its very clear anime trend that in every group of baddies..they range from mediorce to great. This is so sub characters can fight the mediorce and the strongest goodies can fight the strongest baddies. I mean take for example dbz, how would goku cope if the entire ginyu force was composed of captain ginyu at the time?

[nh1]

Originally Posted by kazumaofshellbullet

You do know that zabuza said it himself that haku was a better match against kakashi than himself when he was fighting kakashi. I wonder which statement is right.

So you honestly believe that Sasuke is now (even without CSL2) stronger than Kakashi?

Nothing further to add, a lot of the other things you said are also off.

For example, if those 10 of Konoha are stronger than anyone of Mist, why is Mist stronger? If Konoha has 10 000 weak ones and Mist has 2 000 weak ones, why is Mist stronger? If Mist has showed 2 strong genins and Konoha has showed 9, why is Mist stronger? If Konoha has showed a bunch of jounins and we know 6 or so, of them are strong while Mist has showed 2 who are strong, why is Mist stronger?

You simply assume the Mist ninjas are stronger and that's it.