(L) Shokugeki no Soma [Manga]

[kakakka]

I think it's normal for people to stand-up for their friends and not care about others unless it affects them. I don't know if there're people who view others with same importance just because (We like to think that way, but in the process, we start to think of ways other people relate to us, so it goes in full circle).

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by bones

I think that his test criteria is:

1: Get the best ingredients for the recipe
2: Follow the recipe perfectly
3: Must be delicious

Megumi failed first and second but passed the third objective. Although, I do think that it would have been better if the examiner had explained all this beforehand.

#1 is a fallacy because in this case the students aren't preparing their own ingredients - they're taking what was already provided for them.

Had this been like Souma's trial and Megumi picked bad ingredients, then there would be no one to blame but herself.



Megumi should pass #2, because even if she used a different cooking method, she still made the same meal. If/when they become professional chefs, the people they serve aren't going to be so pedantic about how their food is made. It's not like Megumi made something entirely different like a cake or a salad.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

#1 is a fallacy because in this case the students aren't preparing their own ingredients - they're taking what was already provided for them.

Had this been like Souma's trial and Megumi picked bad ingredients, then there would be no one to blame but herself.



Megumi should pass #2, because even if she used a different cooking method, she still made the same meal. If/when they become professional chefs, the people they serve aren't going to be so pedantic about how their food is made. It's not like Megumi made something entirely different like a cake or a salad.

TBF what she made did have a different taste, which is the only real criticism, though obviously that fact it still tastes good is an achievemnt.

[Algester]

Originally Posted by bones

I think that his test criteria is:

1: Get the best ingredients for the recipe
2: Follow the recipe perfectly
3: Must be delicious

Megumi failed first and second but passed the third objective. Although, I do think that it would have been better if the examiner had explained all this beforehand.

but if your really a true cook you have to innovate and be creative with your handed down recipes as to surprise customers as well, but that would'nt make a good dramatic build up... but that's me, hence I once had a Philosophy that Cooks and Chefs are the Doctors of Food... or somewhat similar

[bones]

The thing is all the students are good cooks, give them a recipe, acceptable ingredients and there's no way they will fail. That's not what the examiner wants, he wants to get rid of some of them.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by bones

The thing is all the students are good cooks, give them a recipe, acceptable ingredients and there's no way they will fail. That's not what the examiner wants, he wants to get rid of some of them.

No they're not. Where would you get this baseless assumption? The several students that Erina tested have shown to make mistakes.

The examiner gave them a time limit and a recipe, and Megumi followed it to the best of her ability with what she had, taking no extra time to do it. I understand it's the chef's responsibility to procure the best ingredients possible, but when you're working with limited resources, that's the fault of the examiner.

Her food was well-prepared in a timely manner and stuck with the prompt. She also had the eye to tell which ingredients were acceptable and which are not. The examiner has no reason to expel her other than being physically weaker than a mob of panicking men. His reasons for failing her are as petty as Erina failing Souma's entrance test just because he set off her tsundere side.

[larethian]

I think this manga beats Yakitate!! Japan because the reactions are mostly ecchi when girls are doing them , and not done by a man in his 30s. Though I still consider this top mid-tier, and kind of surprised that it got placed 3rd in the ToC a few weeks back. I guess readers are looking for something different (yet ecchi) huh? On the other hand, Haikyuu doesn't seem too interesting to me, am I the only one hoping it gets canceled? (it doesn't even have a thread here)

Looking forward to the Shokugeki with that Alumni asshole.

[bones]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

No they're not. Where would you get this baseless assumption? The several students that Erina tested have shown to make mistakes.

The examiner gave them a time limit and a recipe, and Megumi followed it to the best of her ability with what she had, taking no extra time to do it. I understand it's the chef's responsibility to procure the best ingredients possible, but when you're working with limited resources, that's the fault of the examiner.

Her food was well-prepared in a timely manner and stuck with the prompt. She also had the eye to tell which ingredients were acceptable and which are not. The examiner has no reason to expel her other than being physically weaker than a mob of panicking men. His reasons for failing her are as petty as Erina failing Souma's entrance test just because he set off her tsundere side.

The students that Erina tested never made it into the academy, the ones that passed her test were enrolled into the academy so yes they are good cooks who are aiming to become chefs. It's not a baseless assumption.

The examiner provided ingredients and the recipe, given that he wants to make people fail, he can only mess with the ingredients or the recipe

[yuzen003]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I understand it's the chef's responsibility to procure the best ingredients possible, but when you're working with limited resources, that's the fault of the examiner.

Just a theory developed by watching too much Iron Chef, but the "limited resources" aspect is probably one of the main points of this test. If a chef opens their own restaurant they will generally need to be involved in procurement. There are finite ingredients available and multiple restaurants will be buying supplies from the same limited pool. A passive or unmotivated chef will not be able to get top quality produce, meat or seafood which is an important aspect of running a restaurant.

Megumi was really slow/passive in a situation where one of the ground rules was consider everyone here your enemy, with the subtext that they are competing against each other. The method of elimination was sort of contrived as if the glasses guy had simply limited the amount of ingredients so there was only enough for 70% of the class she would have failed for the exact same reason and Souma would have had no grounds to save her.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by yuzen003

Just a theory developed by watching too much Iron Chef, but the "limited resources" aspect is probably one of the main points of this test. If a chef opens their own restaurant they will generally need to be involved in procurement. There are finite ingredients available and multiple restaurants will be buying supplies from the same limited pool. A passive or unmotivated chef will not be able to get top quality produce, meat or seafood which is an important aspect of running a restaurant.

Megumi was really slow/passive in a situation where one of the ground rules was consider everyone here your enemy, with the subtext that they are competing against each other. The method of elimination was sort of contrived as if the glasses guy had simply limited the amount of ingredients so there was only enough for 70% of the class she would have failed for the exact same reason and Souma would have had no grounds to save her.

Then the test should have been broken up into phases - the procuring ingredients phase, and the actual cooking phase. Instead, it was all condensed into one as if only the final result mattered.

Megumi's results were good, even admitted by the alumni chef. She did not take any extra time to prepare her meal either, so the fact that Souma does have grounds to save her at all is very telling that the test is flawed. The problem here is that the message the alumni is giving off is very close to "you did better than I expected, but I didn't want that to happen so you fail anyway," which is very similar to how Erina failed Souma because he pissed her off.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by yuzen003

Just a theory developed by watching too much Iron Chef, but the "limited resources" aspect is probably one of the main points of this test. If a chef opens their own restaurant they will generally need to be involved in procurement. There are finite ingredients available and multiple restaurants will be buying supplies from the same limited pool. A passive or unmotivated chef will not be able to get top quality produce, meat or seafood which is an important aspect of running a restaurant.

Megumi was really slow/passive in a situation where one of the ground rules was consider everyone here your enemy, with the subtext that they are competing against each other. The method of elimination was sort of contrived as if the glasses guy had simply limited the amount of ingredients so there was only enough for 70% of the class she would have failed for the exact same reason and Souma would have had no grounds to save her.

If teaching them about 'limited resources' was the point, then he wouldn't have failed Megumi, since flexibly dealing with problems is also part of being a chef.

My opinion is that the whole reason behind what he did is because he enjoys having the power to expel students. He didn't care that Megumi managed to make the dish even with bad ingredients: that tells me the point wasn't to teach a lesson, it was to make sure someone failed. The only reason he could want that is because he wanted to expel someone, and he wanted to do it in a way that the student would suffer beforehand.

If he just wanted to expel someone, all he had to do was make the test so hard that there was no way that everyone would pass, or he could use some arbitrary pretext, like the guy that was expelled for wearing scented shampoo. Yet he chose to sabotage them from the start so that the people unlucky enough to get bad ingredients would give up as soon as they saw it and spend the rest of time worrying. That's also why he gave that cryptic warning, so he could laugh at the people who would get the bad ingredients as being idiots that didn't listen.

Bonus points if they complain to him about it, so he can explain it and arrogantly look down on them.

[yuzen003]

Not all tests have the same criteria. The previous test where they had to gather ingredients was a test that stressed flexibility and creative thinking, they can make anything they want and the final evaluation was as long as the dish was good they passed. This test has everyone in a single enclosed space, everyone is supposed to make the same dish, and everyone has the same access to supplies. There is a single "correct" answer and they are being tested on if they can reach that answer. Luck really isn't a factor here since everyone had the exact same access to the produce, anyone with the observation skills could have seen the cauliflower situation and prioritized that before the other ingredients. If Megumi had done so she likely would have got a good one even if she isn't aggressive enough, but she left it for last.

Compare it to an essay based exam versus a math test. An essay will be graded based on if the judge likes it and as long as it is not a complete mess it is entirely subjective the other is exacting and you are either correct or you are incorrect.

I do think the glasses guy is an ass, but the test itself isn't necessarily a bad test.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by yuzen003

Not all tests have the same criteria. The previous test where they had to gather ingredients was a test that stressed flexibility and creative thinking, they can make anything they want and the final evaluation was as long as the dish was good they passed. This test has everyone in a single enclosed space, everyone is supposed to make the same dish, and everyone has the same access to supplies. There is a single "correct" answer and they are being tested on if they can reach that answer. Luck really isn't a factor here since everyone had the exact same access to the produce, anyone with the observation skills could have seen the cauliflower situation and prioritized that before the other ingredients. If Megumi had done so she likely would have got a good one even if she isn't aggressive enough, but she left it for last.

Compare it to an essay based exam versus a math test. An essay will be graded based on if the judge likes it and as long as it is not a complete mess it is entirely subjective the other is exacting and you are either correct or you are incorrect.

I do think the glasses guy is an ass, but the test itself isn't necessarily a bad test.

I don't think a portion of the class would be prevented from choosing the right answers in a math test.

[Awrya]

Originally Posted by yuzen003

Not all tests have the same criteria. The previous test where they had to gather ingredients was a test that stressed flexibility and creative thinking, they can make anything they want and the final evaluation was as long as the dish was good they passed.

Agreed.

This test has everyone in a single enclosed space, everyone is supposed to make the same dish, and everyone has the same access to supplies. There is a single "correct" answer and they are being tested on if they can reach that answer.

He could have mixed bad ingredients with enough good ones and fail the ones that picked bad ingredients.
They all had access to supplies, but the supplies were not of equal quality.
This wasn't a test on whether they can reach the correct answer, since she and other late students weren't given a choice.

Luck really isn't a factor here since everyone had the exact same access to the produce, anyone with the observation skills could have seen the cauliflower situation and prioritized that before the other ingredients. If Megumi had done so she likely would have got a good one even if she isn't aggressive enough, but she left it for last.

Luck really is no factor, since no matter what, the last few people will fail.
The cauliflower didn't turn bad because she was late, they were bad to begin with.
Exactly how could she have seen the cauliflower situation, when the bad ones were buried underneath all the good ones?
If you're cooking, you'd at least expect them to prepare fresh ingredients.

Compare it to an essay based exam versus a math test. An essay will be graded based on if the judge likes it and as long as it is not a complete mess it is entirely subjective the other is exacting and you are either correct or you are incorrect.

I do think the glasses guy is an ass, but the test itself isn't necessarily a bad test.

If we compare this to a maths test, the question on a few papers have an error (cauliflower) compared to the others, but the students are marked based on the right question. So whether you solved the wrong question correctly or not, you're still going to fail because the examiner gave you a question with errors.
How is this not necessarily bad?

[demino_hellsin]

Then I suppose the best description or analogy is a math teacher putting a stack of 50 testpapers set for exactly 50 students and tells them to get a piece on their own. They are advised to pick wisely and consider each other enemies. Some papers have that "wrong question" as stated above. So that means answering it right or wrong will still land you with no credit for it despite holding 30% of your grade. The only reasoning the teacher gives you for this is "in real life you have to be a go getter. This is just a test for that."

...

[ReaperxKingx]

Looks like I am with the Majority this time as I side with Souma with this recent chapter. It is already stated that all students at Tootsuki are all good chefs, even even they get expelled, pretty sure they'll get hired quickly. Though to be on top of the mountain in the cooking world, you must be an elite and at least graduate Tootsuki. So I already know what the manga is before anyone jumps in and gives insults to my comments.

Shinomiya has a lot of pride (too much actually), remember he screamed at Hinako like she was his own employee. In this case, Shinomiya is a employer not a teacher, therefore the aim is to ensure that your employees can perform and work at the desired standards for a chef that will ensure your restaurant's survival and reputation. Any chef that tells you that you must follow instructions towards a recipe when given inadequate ingredients, isn't a Chef.

bones, your statements are too rigid. These are students that are learning to be Chefs, therefore, as a employer you look for Chefs that can be flexible and adapt. As an employer, if there happen to be a late shipment of ingredients or maintenance failure of the work site. The ingredients are not perfect, but are not dangerous and can be still be improvise to make the required meals served in your restaurant. Do you call it quits, take a loss in both profit and investments, NO YOU DO NOT. What Megumi did is what most employers would go over a frenzy to hire based on her skills.

[yuzen003]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I don't think a portion of the class would be prevented from choosing the right answers in a math test.

Which is why the comparison to a math test was an analogy of the nature of the test rather then a description of the test. He has provided a standard and the goal is to recreate that, not to improve on it or show he creative you are but to be able to cook to a recipe. McDonalds is hardly a great restaurant, but one reason it has been as successful as it has is consistency go to any McDonalds and you'll be able to get the same kind of food with pretty much the same taste. Being able to reproduce the flavor the customers expect is kind of important, changes for the "better" will not necessarily be something the customer will enjoy.

Originally Posted by Awrya

He could have mixed bad ingredients with enough good ones and fail the ones that picked bad ingredients.
They all had access to supplies, but the supplies were not of equal quality.
This wasn't a test on whether they can reach the correct answer, since she and other late students weren't given a choice.

As the examiner he deliberately set up a cutoff below 100% because he wanted to use his exam to screen for things he considers failings in a chef, some teachers grade more harshly then others. He's an ass and it's not fair, but everyone had the same access to the ingredients and the same information available after that they needed to use their judgement to figure out how to manage their time, acquire the necessary ingredients, and produce the expected product. She and everyone else there was given an equal chance to pass, the fact that there was an arbitrary cut off doesn't mean she didn't have the exact same chance as everyone else.

Originally Posted by Awrya

Luck really is no factor, since no matter what, the last few people will fail.
The cauliflower didn't turn bad because she was late, they were bad to begin with.
Exactly how could she have seen the cauliflower situation, when the bad ones were buried underneath all the good ones?
If you're cooking, you'd at least expect them to prepare fresh ingredients.

Given the positioning of the bad cauliflower (they are all scattered around) they were not a little pyramid of bad ones hiding under all the good ones likely they were mixed together. The faster students would have needed to use their judgement to pick a good cauliflower, given his personality Shinomiya would have failed someone who was fast and just grabbed a bad cauliflower just as quickly. You could fail if you didn't have the basic skills needed to make the recipe, you could fail if you lacked the ability to properly judge the ingredients, and you could fail if you were too slow and got stuck with a bad cauliflower.

Originally Posted by Awrya

If we compare this to a maths test, the question on a few papers have an error (cauliflower) compared to the others, but the students are marked based on the right question. So whether you solved the wrong question correctly or not, you're still going to fail because the examiner gave you a question with errors.
How is this not necessarily bad?

If you are assuming that this is a math test and everyone can get a passing grade that's an erroneous assumption. Shinomiya is using his exam as a screening process, not everyone is going to pass by design and the reasons why you can fail the exam are real failings for a chef.
Being a chef is more then just being able to cook good food, that would make you a good cook, if you are going to be running a kitchen you need to be able to serve the customer when it is convenient for them. Time/speed is a factor and the test evaluates speed with the cauliflower cut off.

This exam was pretty much designed to test skills other then simple cooking ability. I've always heard being a chef is essentially being a manager and you need to manage a lot of non-cooking factors.

Just my thoughts and likely the manga will not go in that direction. I'm not sure anyone would want to learn about the daily tedium of managing a restraunt, procurement, designing a menu, marketing, safety standards, or managing human resources aren't exactly exciting.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by yuzen003

Which is why the comparison to a math test was an analogy of the nature of the test rather then a description of the test. He has provided a standard and the goal is to recreate that, not to improve on it or show he creative you are but to be able to cook to a recipe. McDonalds is hardly a great restaurant, but one reason it has been as successful as it has is consistency go to any McDonalds and you'll be able to get the same kind of food with pretty much the same taste. Being able to reproduce the flavor the customers expect is kind of important, changes for the "better" will not necessarily be something the customer will enjoy.

Once again a false analogy, because I highly doubt a customer will realize that the chicken used to make their Chicken McNuggets may not even be real meat.

Or if a customer happens to order orange juice from them, I doubt the customer would realize that the orange juice isn't actually made from real oranges.

The poor ingredients are not something Megumi chose but were given to her.

[Mars Mode]

I think we should withold our comments unless is ecplicitly explained what was the test looking for, in order to qualify, this is a school, and be it in a school setting, or in a work setting Megumi qualifies, you shouldnt (we shoudnt) throw comments about what a test is all about when we dont know for sure if thats what this is all about.

But I shall be in the side of Megumi even if Im wrong

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by yuzen003

Which is why the comparison to a math test was an analogy of the nature of the test rather then a description of the test. He has provided a standard and the goal is to recreate that, not to improve on it or show he creative you are but to be able to cook to a recipe. McDonalds is hardly a great restaurant, but one reason it has been as successful as it has is consistency go to any McDonalds and you'll be able to get the same kind of food with pretty much the same taste. Being able to reproduce the flavor the customers expect is kind of important, changes for the "better" will not necessarily be something the customer will enjoy.

Being able to cook consistently is important, but what's even more important is feeding the customer.

If this happened in an actual restaraunt, would you give the person who paid a lot of money to eat a refund after they waited at your restaraunt a long time, or would you give them the food Megumi cooked? If he's going to treat them as underlings, then he needs to behave like a chef. A chef's job is to give people food that's worth their money, not obsess over recipes.

As the examiner he deliberately set up a cutoff below 100% because he wanted to use his exam to screen for things he considers failings in a chef, some teachers grade more harshly then others. He's an ass and it's not fair, but everyone had the same access to the ingredients and the same information available after that they needed to use their judgement to figure out how to manage their time, acquire the necessary ingredients, and produce the expected product. She and everyone else there was given an equal chance to pass, the fact that there was an arbitrary cut off doesn't mean she didn't have the exact same chance as everyone else.

That's the thing, they DIDN'T have equal access to the ingredients or an equal chance to pass.

For example, if there were 100 students, the recipe required 1 cauliflower, and there were 150 cauliflowers there, with 10 being bad, then they would have equal access to the good and bad ingredients and an equal chance to pass, since everyone would have a choice between a good and bad cauliflower.

What actually happened was more like there being 100 cauliflowers and 10 being bad. Starting from the first person to pick going down, the access to good ingredients and the chance to pass decreased until some people, like Megumi had no chance at all. He basically turned it into a race, except they didn't all start at the same place, since they obviously didn't pick cauliflowers all at once. It would as if they were put in a line and told to start running, without being allowed to overtake anyone, and the people at the end of the line fail.

Given the positioning of the bad cauliflower (they are all scattered around) they were not a little pyramid of bad ones hiding under all the good ones likely they were mixed together. The faster students would have needed to use their judgement to pick a good cauliflower, given his personality Shinomiya would have failed someone who was fast and just grabbed a bad cauliflower just as quickly. You could fail if you didn't have the basic skills needed to make the recipe, you could fail if you lacked the ability to properly judge the ingredients, and you could fail if you were too slow and got stuck with a bad cauliflower.

As I said above, that's not fair if not all students don't have an equal chance between good and bad cauliflowers. Even if it was just a race, since he set up those conditions, it's simply pointless if the students can't even pass when they manage to beat the speed dilemna. Using the race analogy again, it would as if someone in the worst lane managed to win, but you disqualify them because they were in a bad lane.

If you are assuming that this is a math test and everyone can get a passing grade that's an erroneous assumption. Shinomiya is using his exam as a screening process, not everyone is going to pass by design and the reasons why you can fail the exam are real failings for a chef.
Being a chef is more then just being able to cook good food, that would make you a good cook, if you are going to be running a kitchen you need to be able to serve the customer when it is convenient for them. Time/speed is a factor and the test evaluates speed with the cauliflower cut off.

This exam was pretty much designed to test skills other then simple cooking ability. I've always heard being a chef is essentially being a manager and you need to manage a lot of non-cooking factors.

If it's a screening process, then why not just put a cap on the number of people that can pass, rather than sabotage?

If it's about testing skills necessary for a chef other than cooking, such as the skill to get ingredients quickly, then he should have passed Megumi since she demonstrated the most important ability for a chef: feeding the customer their money's worth no matter what.