GATE - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Yan3242

I mean, for real? Sugawara and sherry scene might look weird but, if creepy and pedo is the FIRST THING that pop in their brain, i think those people are the one who need to be check by physician/doctor asap.

I got bumped out when i read the discussion at that forum, creepy character? Pedo author? I would just laugh it off if they called it lolicon but, creepy? Pedo? This coming from the same people who usually talk waifu stuff? Ugh...

The fact is those people accept violence and murder as normal part of society. That's why they think it is fine to let her die rather than save her by claiming her as a wife. The worst thing that could happen to her is her violent death, and that is JUST FINE to them. Violence and Death don't cause outrage in the West, sex or implied sex do.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The fact is those people accept violence and murder as normal part of society. That's why they think it is fine to let her die rather than save her by claiming her as a wife. The worst thing that could happen to her is her violent death, and that is JUST FINE to them. Violence and Death don't cause outrage in the West, sex or implied sex do.

Kind of sad since sex isn't even IMPLIED in this series. All we have is a twelve-year-old girl with a crush who occasionally makes attempts at sex appeal along with her more successful diplomatic efforts, and a man who remains courteous and thoughtful while simultaneously worrying naturally about people taking common kindness the wrong way. At least he's being treated better by fans than Youtarou was by the end of his series. I don't get how being the object of a little girl's deep infatuation makes an anime man a "pedophile", but it happens a LOT.

[DemonneoPT]

Those idiots do not even know what pedophilia is:
- "Pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children, generally age 11 years or younger"

Sugawara never shown any sexual attraction towards Sherry, only kindness and respect. He was never interested in marrying her either. It was her who had a crush on him. He only used the marriage card because Sherry was going to be killed by the Cleaners. He even said he would only marry Sherry when she reaches her legal age according to the japanese law, when she is no longer considered a child but a full woman and Sherry herself is ok with it. People who call Sugawara or the GATE author creepy because of this situation only shows how ignorant and twisted society is nowadays. They prefer seeing a little child being killed instead of seeing her becoming the bride of an older man by her choice (and let's not forget she is from a medieval world with a medieval education). Reminds me of that people that are pro-life above everything (against abortion or euthanasia) but do not care to what happens to the individuals afterwards. It's sad.

To me, this episode was nice because once again showed the clash between two different cultures and how hard it is for someone like Sugawara. The guy just saved a life and is tagged as creepy and a disgusting pedophile by it's viewers..lol. And let´s not forget the political mess he created too
About Lelei, I though we would see her doing the "masters degree" test first and then going with Itami after the resources. Did they skipped it? :/

[aohige]

Whoa, they cut out a very important plot line about Boses.
I understand they don't have the time to cover it, but it's a shame... it's one of the biggest development in the overall scheme of the world building. Shame.

[Skaddix]

I dont wanna go real world Pen3 but come age of consent was a bit different 1000 or so years ago not the least of which because life expectancy was a whole lot lower. Back then u were lucky to hit 30.

Well to be fair some manga authors do come across a a bit pedo not that I see it in this case maybe the novel/manga are different but it was pretty clear he was saving her in this case. Not just because he wanted to bang her.

[orion]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Kind of sad since sex isn't even IMPLIED in this series. All we have is a twelve-year-old girl with a crush who occasionally makes attempts at sex appeal along with her more successful diplomatic efforts, and a man who remains courteous and thoughtful while simultaneously worrying naturally about people taking common kindness the wrong way. At least he's being treated better by fans than Youtarou was by the end of his series. I don't get how being the object of a little girl's deep infatuation makes an anime man a "pedophile", but it happens a LOT.

Well season 1 had our favorite demigod aroused by killing and implied that those female soldiers who lost the war were going to be raped.

Season 2 had the Japanese female slave of Zorzal who was tortured and raped and we got to see what Tyuule went thru. It's not a far jump to imagine what Sherry would have went thru (rape, torture and murder) if she was taken away.

Sugarawa was in a bad spot. Yeah, he could have let her be taken away and not have a war start or he could see his career go down fast for claiming a 12 yo as his bride in 4 years. The author placed an adult male character in that spot. It's no wonder that people are yelling "pedo". The viewers are in modern society, after all.

That average age of a US diplomat is 30. Sugarawa is prob old enough to be her dad, hence the "pedo" comments.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

Those idiots do not even know what pedophilia is:
- "Pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children, generally age 11 years or younger"

Sugawara never shown any sexual attraction towards Sherry, only kindness and respect. He was never interested in marrying her either. It was her who had a crush on him. He only used the marriage card because Sherry was going to be killed by the Cleaners. He even said he would only marry Sherry when she reaches her legal age according to the japanese law, when she is no longer considered a child but a full woman and Sherry herself is ok with it. People who call Sugawara or the GATE author creepy because of this situation only shows how ignorant and twisted society is nowadays. They prefer seeing a little child being killed instead of seeing her becoming the bride of an older man by her choice (and let's not forget she is from a medieval world with a medieval education). Reminds me of that people that are pro-life above everything (against abortion or euthanasia) but do not care to what happens to the individuals afterwards. It's sad.

I don't feel like calling anyone a pedophile, but don't forget:
- She's 12. By our standards, she doesn't have a "choice", and won't for years yet.
- Her medieval education only reinforces the fact she doesn't get to choose who she marries, which we're supposed to find abhorrent.
- That her only two options are marriage to Sugawara and death again doesn't spell "marriage by her own choice".
- What really saves her life is ultimately the fact that Japan's got guns, which put Pina and her knights in their corner. It's not any kind of legal contortion. Who would even care? To Zorzal the law doesn't matter, and to Japan it's not anywhere on Sugawara's side. They'd have had just as much ground to protect her if she'd just tripped and fell into Japan when she first had a chance. (And, come to think, they're not bad grounds. Since she's a minor, at the very least they'd have had to find her legal guardians to hand her over to, which right now is a bit of a mess. That would have bought as much time as needed.)

So, in the end, what we have is a horrible situation with a vaguely creepy resolution.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

I dont wanna go real world Pen3 but come age of consent was a bit different 1000 or so years ago not the least of which because life expectancy was a whole lot lower. Back then u were lucky to hit 30.

It wasn't so bad if you made it out of infancy. Consent wasn't on the table for reasons other than age.

Originally Posted by orion

Sugarawa was in a bad spot. Yeah, he could have let her be taken away and not have a war start or he could see his career go down fast for claiming a 12 yo as his bride in 4 years. The author placed an adult male character in that spot. It's no wonder that people are yelling "pedo". The viewers are in modern society, after all.

Technically they were already at war. Neither Molt nor Zorzal showed much interest in actually signing a peace treaty.

[thundrakkon]

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Originally Posted by BWTraveller

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Actually, it looks like Sherry knew exactly what she was doing. When Cicero questioned her in that resident's room, she replied that she was sure. She knew she would cause Sugawara trouble, and she gambled that he would take action. She wanted him to take action, in order for Japan to intervene. She wanted to turn the tide against Zorzal with Japan's help. That is why Cicero mentioned that the Cleaners should have tried to arrest her first, since she is very intelligent and plans things out to have situations go with the way she wants. That's also why the foot soldier she bought food from says she will be such a dangerous woman in a few years.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I don't feel like calling anyone a pedophile, but don't forget:
- She's 12. By our standards, she doesn't have a "choice", and won't for years yet.
- Her medieval education only reinforces the fact she doesn't get to choose who she marries, which we're supposed to find abhorrent.
- That her only two options are marriage to Sugawara and death again doesn't spell "marriage by her own choice".

How this makes Sugawara a pedophile? That was the point of my post. Plus, i only mentioned her medieval education because for her (and for the GATE world) it would not be weird to marry someone at young age. Especially someone who would respect and treat her well. I also only mentioned "marriage by her choice" because it's something she wanted from the beginning. So Sherry's interests would also be met. Although our society does not care about what a 12 years old want, i think that is indeed important (for example, in a child custody disput between the parents).

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

- What really saves her life is ultimately the fact that Japan's got guns, which put Pina and her knights in their corner. It's not any kind of legal contortion. Who would even care? To Zorzal the law doesn't matter, and to Japan it's not anywhere on Sugawara's side. They'd have had just as much ground to protect her if she'd just tripped and fell into Japan when she first had a chance. (And, come to think, they're not bad grounds. Since she's a minor, at the very least they'd have had to find her legal guardians to hand her over to, which right now is a bit of a mess. That would have bought as much time as needed.)

So, in the end, what we have is a horrible situation with a vaguely creepy resolution.

It's called politics. The diplomat can use it when confronted by the Empire. If Zorzal do not respect it, he would be the one who is responsible for starting the war and not Japan. It matters. The reason why Zorzal is arresting and killing everyone is not only to dispose of his enemies but also to tease Japan to the war. He is just looking for an excuse and at the same time having his people's acceptance.

Japan have guns. It's true, but since the government refused to help it's allies, what you suggested is not viable. And helping Sherry alone would create problems if another diet would be summoned for the JSDF.

That is why calling it "creepy" is just nonsense to me, because it's not a case of pedophilia. Not even close. But to each his own i guess.

[aohige]

^he did say "So, in the end, what we have is a horrible situation with a vaguely creepy resolution."

Meaning, he's likely not calling the actual character a pedophile, but that the convenient writing feels like a disturbing pedophilia wish fulfillment.

Me? I got no problems I was like hell yeah, tell that sunuvabich inquisitor to hell. Tell im' boy

[Skaddix]

Originally Posted by orion

Well season 1 had our favorite demigod aroused by killing and implied that those female soldiers who lost the war were going to be raped.

Season 2 had the Japanese female slave of Zorzal who was tortured and raped and we got to see what Tyuule went thru. It's not a far jump to imagine what Sherry would have went thru (rape, torture and murder) if she was taken away.

Sugarawa was in a bad spot. Yeah, he could have let her be taken away and not have a war start or he could see his career go down fast for claiming a 12 yo as his bride in 4 years. The author placed an adult male character in that spot. It's no wonder that people are yelling "pedo". The viewers are in modern society, after all.

That average age of a US diplomat is 30. Sugarawa is prob old enough to be her dad, hence the "pedo" comments.

True

Well actually Zorzal would probably merry her off to an ally, she does come from a noble house after all so that could be useful...and then her husband would rape her so overall true.

See for me to Suga a pedo he actually has to be actively trying to sleep with the girl and since there is nothing to suggest he wants to bang her well... I am not going to call him a pedo.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So, in the end, what we have is a horrible situation with a vaguely creepy resolution.

It is only "creepy" if the person thinks it is better to let the girl die. As I say, this is not unusual, modern people are desensitised to deaths of foreign children as if that's entirely normal.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by orion

Well season 1 had our favorite demigod aroused by killing and implied that those female soldiers who lost the war were going to be raped.

Season 2 had the Japanese female slave of Zorzal who was tortured and raped and we got to see what Tyuule went thru. It's not a far jump to imagine what Sherry would have went thru (rape, torture and murder) if she was taken away.

Sugarawa was in a bad spot. Yeah, he could have let her be taken away and not have a war start or he could see his career go down fast for claiming a 12 yo as his bride in 4 years. The author placed an adult male character in that spot. It's no wonder that people are yelling "pedo". The viewers are in modern society, after all.

That average age of a US diplomat is 30. Sugarawa is prob old enough to be her dad, hence the "pedo" comments.

Sorry, what I meant was that sex or even a sexual desire WITH A MINOR wasn't implied in this series. Of course there's implication of sexual activity and/or desire occurring all over the place, but it only takes place between people who are adult or at least of marriageable age (I'm sure a certain young mage recognizes the possibility of having sex with her husband, but he's her HUSBAND and I'm pretty sure she's 16 by now). Sherry shows on one occasion sufficient understanding of "sex appeal" to make a clumsy and completely ineffective effort on her first meeting with Sugawara, but beside that one moment, there has not been any indication of a single sexual thought or action on Sherry's side, and Sugawara only notices the fact that people might see it the way some viewers seem to see it. He doesn't want to do anything shameful or even something that will make people think shameful things about him, much less something that would put him in jail.

Frankly, I thought several times that it would be interesting if they pushed things a bit further, and it would certainly be accurate for a medieval culture. Juliet herself married at thirteen, and King (more often known as Prince) John of England married a girl no older than Sherry, who was already famous for her beauty. On top of that, the treatment of an offering of marriage can be a difficult matter, one that could in some situations have potentially volatile impacts on diplomacy. The author could honestly have put Sugawara in a position where he had no choice but to take Sherry as his bride shortly after meeting her, with refusal having major damaging effects on Japan's standing in the Special Region. Frankly, this would not be "pedophilic" on the part of the character or the author, but just an examination of one of the potentially awkward scenarios that could actually happen when dealing with a foreign country with a culture more like the Middle Ages and earlier than like our own. Sugawara got off easy.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It is only "creepy" if the person thinks it is better to let the girl die. As I say, this is not unusual, modern people are desensitised to deaths of foreign children as if that's entirely normal.

Or if one thinks the marriage aspect is neither necessary nor particularly helpful in saving her life.

Again, think about it. Who's Sugawara making his claims to? Who's supposed to care?

Originally Posted by aohige

^he did say "So, in the end, what we have is a horrible situation with a vaguely creepy resolution."

Meaning, he's likely not calling the actual character a pedophile, but that the convenient writing feels like a disturbing pedophilia wish fulfillment.

Yes, exactly. It's far from the worst I've seen, but still.

Though I'm as happy as anyone else to see the inquisitor foiled.

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

It's called politics. The diplomat can use it when confronted by the Empire. If Zorzal do not respect it, he would be the one who is responsible for starting the war and not Japan. It matters. The reason why Zorzal his arresting and killing everyone is not only to dispose of his enemies but also to tease Japan to the war. He is just looking for an excuse and at the same time having his people's acceptance.

Zorzal's actually smart enough to not want open war with Japan. He's just pushing things knowing (how?) that Japan would let him. It's a game of chicken. What's puzzling is why Japan's going along with it.

They're already at war. The Empire invaded first, and Zorzal was personally involved in war crimes. The peace talks are breaking down, and the more they wait, the worse it gets.

Japan have guns. It's true, but since the government refused to help it's allies, what you suggested is not viable.

Yes, and again, why?

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Sorry, what I meant was that sex or even a sexual desire WITH A MINOR wasn't implied in this series. Of course there's implication of sexual activity and/or desire occurring all over the place, but it only takes place between people who are adult or at least of marriageable age (I'm sure a certain young mage recognizes the possibility of having sex with her husband, but he's her HUSBAND and I'm pretty sure she's 16 by now).

Arranging a marriage with a 12 years old is plenty creepy on its own, even if it isn't consummated for years.

[rladls2121]

Sugawara, he must have been wondered for sometime which action to take at that moment.

Pedophile, to me it's rather out place to having those kinds of thought in these kinds of serious scenes.
But makes me laugh when having it mentioned considering this is an anime we are watching, really awkward though.

Sherry, she sold those expensive pearls, it really means something.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Or if one thinks the marriage aspect is neither
Yes, and again, why?

I have no idea either. For me it was a bad move from Japan by acting that way. The nobles and all their allies only are at danger because they supported the Japanese, therefore i think Japan should have taken responsability and help them. I do not want to say more about it without having more knowledge about Japan true intentions. So i'm going to wait for the next episodes.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Arranging a marriage with a 12 years old is plenty creepy on its own, even if it isn't consummated for years.

He only did that because of the circunstances..lol. Just like i explained in my previous post. Plus, Sugawara never had the intention of proposing to her. Sherry having a crush on him was just a funny situation he was caught into. Even the ladies from the GATE world laugh at him when Sherry followed the guy everywhere
I think people still find such situation creepy because society still have prejudice against older people being together with younger ones (20 years old girl with a 40 years old man, for example). If Sugawara really ends up marrying her, by that time Sherry will already be a full woman. For me, that's not creepy at all. Just two grown-ups minding their own business.

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by Syan48306

The legal age of 16 you mean.

Originally Posted by Yan3242

At least if anything happen, sugawara can use "but she's legal and she want me" safety measure

Just to note even if it is technically legal at that point, public scrutiny is gonna be harsh towards them because still going to be in many eyes a dumb teenager hooking up with a dude whose half her age and could possibly be her father. If Sugawara still plans live in Japan at that time retain his position as diplomat he's better waiting until she at least 20 when most people don't care what you do with your life anymore over here. That or stay in Gate's World for some years and hope that bit of information doesn't leak outside the SR.

Basically despite that being true nobody ever uses that argument because society at large doesn't care as perception and many histories of tragic adult to adolescent relationships trump it as their are concerned.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Arranging a marriage with a 12 years old is plenty creepy on its own, even if it isn't consummated for years.

As others have mentioned, it was necessary. If he simply harbored someone declared to be an enemy of the state by imperial law on humanitarian reasons, he would be giving Zolzal reason to attack. They know he's going to take action against them, it's necessary to establish that the Empire isn't a pushover as he thinks it has been to that point. But they want him to make the first move for both reasons of relations with the locals and public relations with other nations back home. If they catch him doing something that welcomes retaliation and isn't a matter of state affairs, they'll be able to move in and help those that opposed the tyrant. But if they take citizens guilty of treason and refuse to let them go, this is practically tantamount to open hostility. This will give Zolzal validation and justification to attack them. However, declaring her his fiancé, he manages to create a prior agreement and contractual relationship that gives him responsibility for Sherry and also gives her a very strong direct connection to Japan, thus providing an opening and allowing him to lay "claim" to that single "traitor".
Also, what's wrong with consenting to marry a girl in a few years? He never said she couldn't break the contract later; while engagement was often a relatively serious contract a long time ago, it was not absolutely binding and could be broken off. On paper, it's a contractual relationship creating a clear relationship to a Japanese individual, but at the same time it is a situation that gives both parties full freedom to break the agreement. His behavior has made it fairly clear that he's not doing this out of romantic feelings toward her, so regardless of its legal ramifications what it amounts to is his telling her that he's not refusing and will consider it if her heart hasn't changed in the next 4 years.

Again, he's in a very tense situation politically, tenser than you seem to realize. If he hadn't declared her to be his future bride, he would have had to either turn her over to torture and possible violation or give the acting emperor a gift-wrapped excuse to go to war. And that's the absolute last thing they want to do. If they give him reason, then it'll be harder to make him stop and they'll have to basically pound him into submission because he's just trying to right a wrong done to him; but if they just let him come to him, then they're only defending themselves from unprovoked violence, which is a much simpler situation for someone who wants to end things quickly. It's much more difficult to call for a cease fire if you're the one who started the war.

[velvet nightmare]

the itami running away part at the start was kind of stupid. assassins won't be able to follow you since you use random chance as a guide? how about the tire trails? should be the easiest pursuit ever.

[thundrakkon]

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Originally Posted by BWTraveller

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About the romantic feelings part, the only part that made it iffy was when he told Sherry that he will get a pearl necklace with his own money instead of the taxpayer's. Getting jewelry is a pretty big deal, so there is definitely some feelings involved.

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Originally Posted by velvet nightmare

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I did think of that as well, but remember that he riding in a truck. Anyone pursuing him will be way behind him. Remember how they mentioned that it would take a week or so for reports to the capital from Arnus by spies from the empire? It takes only half a day by vehicle, as mentioned in a previous episode, so it is impossible for anyone from the empire to keep up.