2007-09-18, 09:41 | Link #141 | |||
~ I Do ~
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 38
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We ARE! Welcome to the OC Thread S4 Project. Hopefully we can turn it into a fic, instead of just random thoughts.
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2007-09-19, 06:36 | Link #143 |
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My (not so professional) analysis about TSAB and Riot Force 6 going screwed:
1. Like many others said, TSAB, is not a rigid military force, rather more like paramilitary or police division. 2. TSAB is not familiar with idea of getting attacked. For many years, it is implied that Bureau's job are only managing stuff like Lost Logia hunting, disasters, mage enlisting and management, hunting criminals, never going out war or such. Like when US got 9/11, in a manner. 3. Hayate & Co. itself are not trained and having experience as defender, they were trained as attacker. Look at their record, Hayate & her knights as Special Investigator specialized in Lost Logia implying that they after Lost Logia and no other way around, Fate as Enforcer who intercept enemies in Asura, and Nanoha as Tactical Instructor, which from the training session, is more focused on offense rather than defense. 4. Defensive status requiring sturdy, disciplined and strong-willed personnel. A good example for this is Olivia Miller Armstrong's company on Briggs Fortress (Fullmetal Alchemist manga, yeah, I'm a fan). Hayate's troops are determined and strong-willed, yes, I believe, but sturdy and disciplined? That's another story. |
2007-09-19, 13:23 | Link #144 | ||||
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Join Date: May 2007
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What have we seen of their training? Nanoha is supposed to be one of the TSAB's best instructors yet she's had a cascade of recent training failures. Hayate went through command training but she can barely get by through umpiring a platoon-sized command. To put it bluntly, TSAB training sucks. Quote:
During offensive operations, troops won't constantly be attacking and when they're not attacking, they'll be defending whether they like or not. Even during successful offensive operations, attacking forces will commonly be placed in situations where they'll need to adopt defensive postures. For an example, take a look at this diagram: Once you've surrounded and pocketed an enemy force during an offensive operation, your offensive force has to adopt a defensive posture until the pocket can be reduced. In the meantime, until the enemy force can be convinced that their situation is hopeless and surrenders, the offensive force has to defend both from breakout attacks from within the pocket and relief attempts from outside the pocket. Poor defensive capabilities place the attacking forces in danger of being overrun and weaken its defensive ring around the pocket, allowing more of the enemy force to escape. If you're training for offensive operations, for the training to be effective you need to train to conduct both attack and defense. Quote:
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-19 at 16:15. |
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2007-09-19, 15:18 | Link #145 | |||
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But I also suspect that the TSAB has a cultural bias against real warfare. For the pre-magic era was very violent and they may associate proper tactics with that era. And the rules limiting the firepower for units is a clue for this. Quote:
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2007-09-19, 19:12 | Link #146 | |
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Which is not to say that the level of demonstrated incompetence isn't the TSAB's fault. |
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2007-09-19, 20:45 | Link #147 | |||
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They managed to do it since most of their commander and personnels (which downright angry for Versailles stuff) is not captured/ banished. And when the chance come, their vigilance paid off. Quote:
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First, I must admit that my military knowledge is born from Internet, stories, and some war-related movie, manga and anime, some of them being Gundam SEED series and Fullmetal Alchemist. In my mind, while it is true that defending is (seems) much more easy than attacking, the mindset of Hayate & Co is not suited to the idea of defending. Like you said, attacking requires leadership (Fate and Nanoha clearly are battle-proven from 9 y.o., Hayate & Co. also), troops (Forwards are quit impressive), and good equipment (ask Shari). But to adapt to battlefield in attacking, you need another mindset: creativity and aggressive mindset. To determine the weak point of enemy, strike them in weak places, to maneuver around enemies strong point, etc. But to defend, you need, constant vigilance (typo from Moody, I know), sturdy but flexible enough army, which can withstand any kind of attack, can quickly adapted and moved as a single entity, and can stand still against anything thrown in front of them (this philosophy is borrowed from Olivia Milla Armstrong). Quote:
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2007-09-19, 22:35 | Link #148 | ||||
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I suspect it was because Teana originally had the right mentality to begin with, and that Ep8-9 incident just knocked off a rough edge, thus Nanoha had little credit for it. Quote:
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So, if you can't attack, you can't defend/security and you can't handle meeting engagements .. well, what's left. |
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2007-09-19, 23:30 | Link #149 | ||
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The TSAB has should be able to draw upon the historical military experience of all of itself and its member worlds. It has officers with current and relevant combat experience to work with if it needs to develop or modify its existing doctrine yet it is unable to draw upon any of its experiences to develop effective tactical doctrine nor has it able to reliably produce effective combat leaders. If the TSAB has any kind of tactical doctrine, its effect is so negligible that it may as well not exist at all. The only thing the TSAB has managed to successfully imbue its officers and troops is that if they're not splitting up, then they're probably doing something terribly wrong.
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2007-09-20, 00:52 | Link #150 | |
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A problem with history is that there is almost always counter-examples, and there are always ways to interpret even a single event in multiple ways. Arguably, history can be used to back almost any position. For example, StrikerS' ending actually will be interpreted by TSAB Historians as an example favoring dispersal of forces. With the current result, historians will no longer care about how close and contrived-level lucky the whole thing was. Instead, they will note how the presence of the Forwards supported the sagging GF frontline. And all the objectives did get achieved (except for Signum, since someone did get to Regius). They will also note how rarely were the full concentration really brought to bear on any single target throughout the history of RF6. Just in the Scarlietti Battle, the Forwards and Signum might as well have been directly subordinated to the 108th from the start, Nanoha and Vita might as well have been subordinated to the Air Units, and so on. Thus, concentration of force in a single unit is unwise, and elite mages are best employed dispersed. In other words, RF6 is a failure (for reasons dissimilar to your similar conclusion). Dispersal of forces will remain TSAB's motto for the next century. Yah! BTW, even if they had used your tactics and concentrated forces (you advocate not bothering with the Ground Numbers at all, IIRC), TSAB historians will call it a wrong decision anyway. They'd note that your failure to reinforce the ground line caused it to break, causing many casualties among the Ground Forces' front line. Ironically, if RF6 really finished off everything else fast because of concentration of forces, you'd have come under greater criticism for "hogging" valuable assets to yourself and failing in TSAB's duty to "Protect all citizens." It'd almost have been better if RF6 had to struggle a bit, "justifying" your bringing everyone along. Which is just another reason I insist on at least having a quick-go at cleaning out the Ground Numbers. Presumably, whatever the TSAB is doing, it is at least marginally working most of the time. There may have been lots of un-necessary casualties, but all those cases will be marked as successes. In that light, perhaps they are studying history, but given the lens they were viewing history through, dispersal is the logical result of their historical experience (though perhaps not the correct one). Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-09-20 at 01:10. |
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2007-09-20, 01:48 | Link #151 | ||
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2007-09-20, 13:02 | Link #155 | ||||||
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The units that specialize in direct action and raids tend to be elite light infantry units. The standard light infantry tactics act as a base. They need to excel at normal light infantry skill sets before they can even think about conducting direct action or raiding missions. Those skill sets are developed even further in addition to further specialized training. Quote:
Whether you like it or not, Midchilda and lot of other worlds expect the TSAB to be a credible military force. Quote:
All of the combat experience and study of military history in the world won't do an armed force any good if it persists on drawing the wrong lessons learned from those experiences. Quote:
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I haven't proposed a detailed plan since there are so many unknowns like the geographical relationships between objectives and the flight speed of the Asura and the Aces. Quote:
I also suggested eliminating the ground numbers through overmatch with the Aces on the way to the Cradle and Jail's lab as an option. Ironically enough, I was accused of tactical myopia because the numbers would all "hide" and RF6 would be "forced to play cat and mouse". It would be "impossible for RF6 to adapt to the situation" and simply accept the dispersal as buying a fair bit of time and immediately moving on to the next target. I think that was the same thread where I was admonished with the remark, "Trying to secure everywhere is never a tactical error."
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-20 at 15:03. |
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2007-09-20, 13:16 | Link #157 | |
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That was probably the most minor point I brought up. What about the other points? Do you have any argument with them?
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2007-09-20, 16:42 | Link #158 | |||
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This would explain the arrogance and the overly strong bureaucracy of the TSAB. Quote:
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2007-09-20, 17:02 | Link #159 | |||
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The TSAB is the first and only line of defense that Midchilda has. If it should fail, there is nothing to fall back on. Quote:
I'll refer you back to this: Quote:
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2007-09-20, 17:27 | Link #160 | |
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TSAB is an overglorified, under trained, bureaucratic police force. A product of an interplanetary utopia that has no use or desire for a real military. Good at stopping that lone crazy researcher or that lost logica smuggler, but completely outmaneuvered by any large group using basic tactics. |
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