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Old 2007-09-18, 09:41   Link #141
Kha
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Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I didn't know that at first reading, but I can see that from the fact your Silvanus is in the story.
Nitty Picky: It's not my Silvanus (Silvana actually. ), it's X's. I had a share because X decided to star me in the fic (Hence there's a character named Kha there.)

Sorry...

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
As I've said before, each story probably has its own plot and character growth necessities, so it is not like I blame you or Saint X, or the other guys who wrote the other FanFics that got put up as examples in my previous post. Let's get this out of the way first - I enjoyed many of them.

Nevertheless, if we have ten thousand stories, and most of them, through one plot necessity or another, make Hayate a wimp, a researcher likely won't care - he'd just aggregate it into a report and we'd have our unfortunate result.

And of course, as JimmyC said, all of us put together probably don't make up 1% of any influences that tipped StrikerS one way or another. If my theory is right, it is the much more prolific Japanese writers (however, I've yet to bump into a Japanese Nanoha Fanfic, even though I've seen a couple of Nanoha parody comics, none of which are all that flattering in this respect either - cosplay Hayate may be good for a few laughs but it won't make 7Arcs write her nicely), that made the difference, not really us.

But then, if Chaos2Frozen can blame our comments here for causing an overabundance of NxF, I can certainly point to the FanFiction made here... not so much because we made a difference ourselves, but that we are probably representative of those Japanese that made the difference
I'm not discounting this. Especially when canon started refering to stuff cook up in the OC thread, we were pleasantly shocked to bits.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I saw the hints of the next arc. But the next arc was never published.

There is always something called Alternate Universe (it is AlternateS after all), you know. Now that StrikerS is nearly done (and rather uh, sublime), you know which places you have to avoid, and can branch off. I for one would like to see an ending.
Because we got so many factors right (the Seiou being a centerpiece of the story was the biggest jackpot of them all), we felt that it was a waste to turn it AU, so we grudgingly stopped it for now.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well, if you believe there's a 4th season, here's your chance to just be 0.01% of the force influenceing 7Arcs
We ARE! Welcome to the OC Thread S4 Project. Hopefully we can turn it into a fic, instead of just random thoughts.
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Old 2007-09-18, 17:20   Link #142
BBM
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Maye the TSAB was a military force at one point in time. But it seems to have degenerated into a bureaucratic organisation, which makes it completly ineffective in a true conflict scenario.

Which what we have seen in SS.
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Old 2007-09-19, 06:36   Link #143
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My (not so professional) analysis about TSAB and Riot Force 6 going screwed:
1. Like many others said, TSAB, is not a rigid military force, rather more like paramilitary or police division.
2. TSAB is not familiar with idea of getting attacked. For many years, it is implied that Bureau's job are only managing stuff like Lost Logia hunting, disasters, mage enlisting and management, hunting criminals, never going out war or such. Like when US got 9/11, in a manner.
3. Hayate & Co. itself are not trained and having experience as defender, they were trained as attacker. Look at their record, Hayate & her knights as Special Investigator specialized in Lost Logia implying that they after Lost Logia and no other way around, Fate as Enforcer who intercept enemies in Asura, and Nanoha as Tactical Instructor, which from the training session, is more focused on offense rather than defense.
4. Defensive status requiring sturdy, disciplined and strong-willed personnel. A good example for this is Olivia Miller Armstrong's company on Briggs Fortress (Fullmetal Alchemist manga, yeah, I'm a fan). Hayate's troops are determined and strong-willed, yes, I believe, but sturdy and disciplined? That's another story.
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Old 2007-09-19, 13:23   Link #144
Mirificus
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Originally Posted by RBomber View Post
My (not so professional) analysis about TSAB and Riot Force 6 going screwed:
1. Like many others said, TSAB, is not a rigid military force, rather more like paramilitary or police division.
Regardless of political dogma and additional responsibilities, the TSAB is still being expected to function as a military force. The TSAB is responsible for the primary defense of Midchilda and countless other worlds and it has control over their combined ground, air and naval forces.

Quote:
2. TSAB is not familiar with idea of getting attacked. For many years, it is implied that Bureau's job are only managing stuff like Lost Logia hunting, disasters, mage enlisting and management, hunting criminals, never going out war or such. Like when US got 9/11, in a manner.
Germany had no wars between 1919-1938, yet it managed to improve the quality of its army dramatically. While there is no replacement for combat experience, realistic training coupled with well-tested well thought out tactical doctrine and thorough and effective applied leadership training can go a long way. The TSAB has clearly been in wars in the past should be able to draw upon the historical military experience of all of its member worlds. It even has officers with current and relevant combat experience yet it is unable to draw upon that experience to develop effective tactical doctrine nor has it able to reliably produce effective combat leaders.

What have we seen of their training? Nanoha is supposed to be one of the TSAB's best instructors yet she's had a cascade of recent training failures. Hayate went through command training but she can barely get by through umpiring a platoon-sized command.

To put it bluntly, TSAB training sucks.

Quote:
3. Hayate & Co. itself are not trained and having experience as defender, they were trained as attacker. Look at their record, Hayate & her knights as Special Investigator specialized in Lost Logia implying that they after Lost Logia and no other way around, Fate as Enforcer who intercept enemies in Asura, and Nanoha as Tactical Instructor, which from the training session, is more focused on offense rather than defense.
Attack and defense are both intrinsic to military operations whether they're offensive or defensive. One of the most effective ways of stopping an enemy attack is by using a well timed and well placed counterattack. This is true in the face of modern weapons from the operational down to the tactical level.

During offensive operations, troops won't constantly be attacking and when they're not attacking, they'll be defending whether they like or not. Even during successful offensive operations, attacking forces will commonly be placed in situations where they'll need to adopt defensive postures. For an example, take a look at this diagram:



Once you've surrounded and pocketed an enemy force during an offensive operation, your offensive force has to adopt a defensive posture until the pocket can be reduced. In the meantime, until the enemy force can be convinced that their situation is hopeless and surrenders, the offensive force has to defend both from breakout attacks from within the pocket and relief attempts from outside the pocket. Poor defensive capabilities place the attacking forces in danger of being overrun and weaken its defensive ring around the pocket, allowing more of the enemy force to escape.

If you're training for offensive operations, for the training to be effective you need to train to conduct both attack and defense.

Quote:
4. Defensive status requiring sturdy, disciplined and strong-willed personnel. A good example for this is Olivia Miller Armstrong's company on Briggs Fortress (Fullmetal Alchemist manga, yeah, I'm a fan). Hayate's troops are determined and strong-willed, yes, I believe, but sturdy and disciplined? That's another story.
All things being equal, defending is easier than attacking. Offenses are much more demanding on leadership, troops and equipment. There's no way of getting around that. If Hayate and her forces don't have the training or leadership to be effective in defensive operations then the implication is that offensive operations are impossible for the unit.
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Old 2007-09-19, 15:18   Link #145
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Regardless of political dogma and additional responsibilities, the TSAB is still being expected to function as a military force. The TSAB is responsible for the primary defense of Midchilda and countless other worlds and it has control over their combined ground, air and naval forces.
But has TSAB 'ever' fought a war?

But I also suspect that the TSAB has a cultural bias against real warfare. For the pre-magic era was very violent and they may associate proper tactics with that era.
And the rules limiting the firepower for units is a clue for this.

Quote:
To put it bluntly, TSAB training sucks.
snip
If you're training for offensive operations, for the training to be effective you need to train to handle both attack and defense.
So true.


Quote:
All things being equal, defending is easier than attacking. Offenses are much more demanding on leadership, troops and equipment. There's no way of getting around that. If Hayate and her forces don't have the training or leadership to be effective in defensive operations then the implication is that offensive operations are impossible for the unit.
But do they train for a real offensive or just strikes? It seems to me that they just use quick strikes in a hope to take out key objectives.
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Old 2007-09-19, 19:12   Link #146
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Germany had no wars between 1919-1938, yet it managed to improve the quality of its army dramatically. While there is no replacement for combat experience, realistic training coupled with well-tested well thought out tactical doctrine and thorough and effective applied leadership training can go a long way. The TSAB has clearly been in wars in the past should be able to draw upon the historical military experience of all of its member worlds. It even has officers with current and relevant combat experience yet it is unable to draw upon that experience to develop effective tactical doctrine nor has it able to reliably produce effective combat leaders.
To be fair, Germany had a really nice situation there. The Captains of WWI that were retained even after Versailles were just in time to be the Generals of WWII, so the continuity link was not lost. The TSAB was ostensibly at peace for over a century.

Which is not to say that the level of demonstrated incompetence isn't the TSAB's fault.
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Old 2007-09-19, 20:45   Link #147
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Regardless of political dogma and additional responsibilities, the TSAB is still being expected to function as a military force. The TSAB is responsible for the primary defense of Midchilda and countless other worlds and it has control over their combined ground, air and naval forces.


Germany had no wars between 1919-1938, yet it managed to improve the quality of its army dramatically. While there is no replacement for combat experience, realistic training coupled with well-tested well thought out tactical doctrine and thorough and effective applied leadership training can go a long way. The TSAB has clearly been in wars in the past should be able to draw upon the historical military experience of all of its member worlds. It even has officers with current and relevant combat experience yet it is unable to draw upon that experience to develop effective tactical doctrine nor has it able to reliably produce effective combat leaders.

They managed to do it since most of their commander and personnels (which downright angry for Versailles stuff) is not captured/ banished. And when the chance come, their vigilance paid off.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
What have we seen of their training? Nanoha is supposed to be one of the TSAB's best instructors yet she's had a cascade of recent training failures. Hayate went through command training but she can barely get by through umpiring a platoon-sized command.

To put it bluntly, TSAB training sucks.
And only against a single person, which the mindset and philosophy didn't match with her, and instinctively is going against her.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Attack and defense are both intrinsic to military operations whether they're offensive or defensive. One of the most effective ways of stopping an enemy attack is by using a well timed and well placed counterattack. This is true in the face of modern weapons from the operational down to the tactical level.

During offensive operations, troops won't constantly be attacking and when they're not attacking, they'll be defending whether they like or not. Even during successful offensive operations, attacking forces will commonly be placed in situations where they'll need to adopt defensive postures. For an example, take a look at this diagram:



Once you've surrounded and pocketed an enemy force during an offensive operation, your offensive force has to adopt a defensive posture until the pocket can be reduced. In the meantime, until the enemy force can be convinced that their situation is hopeless and surrenders, the offensive force has to defend both from breakout attacks from within the pocket and relief attempts from outside the pocket. Poor defensive capabilities place the attacking forces in danger of being overrun and weaken its defensive ring around the pocket, allowing more of the enemy force to escape.

If you're training for offensive operations, for the training to be effective you need to train to conduct both attack and defense.


All things being equal, defending is easier than attacking. Offenses are much more demanding on leadership, troops and equipment. There's no way of getting around that. If Hayate and her forces don't have the training or leadership to be effective in defensive operations then the implication is that offensive operations are impossible for the unit.

First, I must admit that my military knowledge is born from Internet, stories, and some war-related movie, manga and anime, some of them being Gundam SEED series and Fullmetal Alchemist.
In my mind, while it is true that defending is (seems) much more easy than attacking, the mindset of Hayate & Co is not suited to the idea of defending. Like you said, attacking requires leadership (Fate and Nanoha clearly are battle-proven from 9 y.o., Hayate & Co. also), troops (Forwards are quit impressive), and good equipment (ask Shari). But to adapt to battlefield in attacking, you need another mindset: creativity and aggressive mindset. To determine the weak point of enemy, strike them in weak places, to maneuver around enemies strong point, etc.
But to defend, you need, constant vigilance (typo from Moody, I know), sturdy but flexible enough army, which can withstand any kind of attack, can quickly adapted and moved as a single entity, and can stand still against anything thrown in front of them (this philosophy is borrowed from Olivia Milla Armstrong).

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Originally Posted by BBM View Post
But has TSAB 'ever' fought a war?

But I also suspect that the TSAB has a cultural bias against real warfare. For the pre-magic era was very violent and they may associate proper tactics with that era.
And the rules limiting the firepower for units is a clue for this.

So true.


But do they train for a real offensive or just strikes? It seems to me that they just use quick strikes in a hope to take out key objectives.
Can't agree more to this.
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Old 2007-09-19, 22:35   Link #148
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by RBomber View Post
They managed to do it since most of their commander and personnels (which downright angry for Versailles stuff) is not captured/ banished. And when the chance come, their vigilance paid off.
A valid point. If they had waited another 20 years, maybe it would have decayed.

Quote:
And only against a single person, which the mindset and philosophy didn't match with her, and instinctively is going against her.
Actually, from our (Mirificus and my) POV, Teana is the only one who actually came out more or less right, despite that little blowup. Everyone's combat skills may have improved, but their mentality was all wrong and never corrected. It wasn't an offensive mentality. It wasn't even a defensive mentality. It was closer to a Pacifist Mentality, and that is just all wrong for a combat unit.

I suspect it was because Teana originally had the right mentality to begin with, and that Ep8-9 incident just knocked off a rough edge, thus Nanoha had little credit for it.

Quote:
First, I must admit that my military knowledge is born from Internet, stories, and some war-related movie, manga and anime, some of them being Gundam SEED series and Fullmetal Alchemist.
In my mind, while it is true that defending is (seems) much more easy than attacking, the mindset of Hayate & Co is not suited to the idea of defending. Like you said, attacking requires leadership (Fate and Nanoha clearly are battle-proven from 9 y.o., Hayate & Co. also), troops (Forwards are quit impressive), and good equipment (ask Shari). But to adapt to battlefield in attacking, you need another mindset: creativity and aggressive mindset. To determine the weak point of enemy, strike them in weak places, to maneuver around enemies strong point, etc.
Not that anyone, except for Teana, ultimately did that. You can actually classify all of Ep21-25 as a counteroffensive. It was all wrong from the get-go. The only decision Hayate seemed to have got adequately right was in initial personnel selection, which managed to (along with 7Arcs intervention) make up for everything else she failed to do.

Quote:
But to defend, you need, constant vigilance (typo from Moody, I know), sturdy but flexible enough army, which can withstand any kind of attack, can quickly adapted and moved as a single entity, and can stand still against anything thrown in front of them (this philosophy is borrowed from Olivia Milla Armstrong).
Actually, what a police force needs to handle is Security with some offensives. What we are shown demonstrates that TSAB's offensive planning (Ep21, of course, but also Ep24, where a failure of flank security apparently caused the wipeout of all of Zest's old unit) and security planning (Ep7, Ep17), as well as meeting engagement (Ep11-12) is lacking.

So, if you can't attack, you can't defend/security and you can't handle meeting engagements .. well, what's left.
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Old 2007-09-19, 23:30   Link #149
Mirificus
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Originally Posted by BBM View Post
But do they train for a real offensive or just strikes? It seems to me that they just use quick strikes in a hope to take out key objectives.
Training for direct action and raids would require much more extensive training beyond what I was already suggesting.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
A valid point. If they had waited another 20 years, maybe it would have decayed.
I used the example of the Reichsheer because it was able to consistently draw the right lessons from its combat experiences, rewrite or create new doctrine as appropriate based on those lessons and effectively disseminating that doctrine within its officers and troops. It is pretty much the anti-TSAB. The Kaiserheer, the Soviet Army 1941-45 and the US Army in the 1980s are also successful examples of that process.

The TSAB has should be able to draw upon the historical military experience of all of itself and its member worlds. It has officers with current and relevant combat experience to work with if it needs to develop or modify its existing doctrine yet it is unable to draw upon any of its experiences to develop effective tactical doctrine nor has it able to reliably produce effective combat leaders.

If the TSAB has any kind of tactical doctrine, its effect is so negligible that it may as well not exist at all. The only thing the TSAB has managed to successfully imbue its officers and troops is that if they're not splitting up, then they're probably doing something terribly wrong.
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Old 2007-09-20, 00:52   Link #150
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
If the TSAB has any kind of tactical doctrine, its effect is so negligible that it may as well not exist at all. The only thing the TSAB has managed to successfully imbue its officers and troops is that if they're not splitting up, then they're probably doing something terribly wrong.
To be fair to them, their statistics may have favored this doctrine. Their current doctrine is, "Cover all threat axes. Protect all citizens." Since the TSAB is a police force first, it can generally count on a lot of guys to handle everday work and have enough reserves to cover every front. Thus handling every front may have statistically worked.

A problem with history is that there is almost always counter-examples, and there are always ways to interpret even a single event in multiple ways. Arguably, history can be used to back almost any position.

For example, StrikerS' ending actually will be interpreted by TSAB Historians as an example favoring dispersal of forces. With the current result, historians will no longer care about how close and contrived-level lucky the whole thing was. Instead, they will note how the presence of the Forwards supported the sagging GF frontline. And all the objectives did get achieved (except for Signum, since someone did get to Regius).

They will also note how rarely were the full concentration really brought to bear on any single target throughout the history of RF6. Just in the Scarlietti Battle, the Forwards and Signum might as well have been directly subordinated to the 108th from the start, Nanoha and Vita might as well have been subordinated to the Air Units, and so on. Thus, concentration of force in a single unit is unwise, and elite mages are best employed dispersed.

In other words, RF6 is a failure (for reasons dissimilar to your similar conclusion). Dispersal of forces will remain TSAB's motto for the next century. Yah!

BTW, even if they had used your tactics and concentrated forces (you advocate not bothering with the Ground Numbers at all, IIRC), TSAB historians will call it a wrong decision anyway. They'd note that your failure to reinforce the ground line caused it to break, causing many casualties among the Ground Forces' front line.

Ironically, if RF6 really finished off everything else fast because of concentration of forces, you'd have come under greater criticism for "hogging" valuable assets to yourself and failing in TSAB's duty to "Protect all citizens." It'd almost have been better if RF6 had to struggle a bit, "justifying" your bringing everyone along.

Which is just another reason I insist on at least having a quick-go at cleaning out the Ground Numbers.

Presumably, whatever the TSAB is doing, it is at least marginally working most of the time. There may have been lots of un-necessary casualties, but all those cases will be marked as successes. In that light, perhaps they are studying history, but given the lens they were viewing history through, dispersal is the logical result of their historical experience (though perhaps not the correct one).

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Old 2007-09-20, 01:48   Link #151
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Training for direct action and raids would require much more extensive training beyond what I was already suggesting.
I don't think that it can be compared. Sure strike tactics are more intensive but have a different character.

Quote:
The TSAB has should be able to draw upon the historical military experience of all of itself and its member worlds. It has officers with current and relevant combat experience to work with if it needs to develop or modify its existing doctrine yet it is unable to draw upon any of its experiences to develop effective tactical doctrine nor has it able to reliably produce effective combat leaders.
Just look at my previous post.
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Old 2007-09-20, 02:59   Link #152
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As previously mentioned, t is difficult, in fact, to identify a single area of real competence in the TSAB. They can't attack, they can't defend, they can't handle a meeting engagement either. What else is left for them...
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Old 2007-09-20, 03:16   Link #153
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Well they work as a police force for lost logica. Should we really use any military logic here?
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Old 2007-09-20, 04:46   Link #154
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Remember how competent they were at A's? Remember their original plan was basically to wipe out at least ~130 million Japanese! They could cover this one up because we are only the 97th, but imagine if that was Mid.
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Old 2007-09-20, 13:02   Link #155
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Originally Posted by BBM View Post
I don't think that it can be compared. Sure strike tactics are more intensive but have a different character.
They can't be separated like that any more than than attack or defense can be separated during military operations.

The units that specialize in direct action and raids tend to be elite light infantry units. The standard light infantry tactics act as a base. They need to excel at normal light infantry skill sets before they can even think about conducting direct action or raiding missions. Those skill sets are developed even further in addition to further specialized training.

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Originally Posted by BBM View Post
Well they work as a police force for lost logica. Should we really use any military logic here?
The TSAB should be as the more they deviate from it, the greater the danger they place on all of the worlds for which they are responsible. Look at what's happened with the Mid-capital. The TSAB let Cradle and drones reach the airspace directly above the city and their slow response time allowed hours for the Cradle and drones to cause extensive civilian casualties and collateral damage.

Whether you like it or not, Midchilda and lot of other worlds expect the TSAB to be a credible military force.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
A problem with history is that there is almost always counter-examples, and there are always ways to interpret even a single event in multiple ways. Arguably, history can be used to back almost any position.

For example, StrikerS' ending actually will be interpreted by TSAB Historians as an example favoring dispersal of forces. With the current result, historians will no longer care about how close and contrived-level lucky the whole thing was. Instead, they will note how the presence of the Forwards supported the sagging GF frontline. And all the objectives did get achieved (except for Signum, since someone did get to Regius).

They will also note how rarely were the full concentration really brought to bear on any single target throughout the history of RF6. Just in the Scarlietti Battle, the Forwards and Signum might as well have been directly subordinated to the 108th from the start, Nanoha and Vita might as well have been subordinated to the Air Units, and so on. Thus, concentration of force in a single unit is unwise, and elite mages are best employed dispersed.
This is why I've been emphasizing the ability to consistently draw the right lessons from experience. That ability to discern what the appropriate lessons to be learned are is vital and that is why the Reichsheer was used as my first counter-example to the TSAB.

All of the combat experience and study of military history in the world won't do an armed force any good if it persists on drawing the wrong lessons learned from those experiences.

Quote:
In other words, RF6 is a failure (for reasons dissimilar to your similar conclusion). Dispersal of forces will remain TSAB's motto for the next century. Yah!
I think I understand but could you elaborate so I can be clear on what you're saying?

Quote:
BTW, even if they had used your tactics and concentrated forces (you advocate not bothering with the Ground Numbers at all, IIRC), TSAB historians will call it a wrong decision anyway. They'd note that your failure to reinforce the ground line caused it to break, causing many casualties among the Ground Forces' front line.
You're right that I did bring that up. However, I suggested that as a possible means of economy of force. It may have caused more casualties to the Ground Forces line than they were already taking but could potentially have saved civilian lives by taking out the Cradle and Jail's lab faster.

I haven't proposed a detailed plan since there are so many unknowns like the geographical relationships between objectives and the flight speed of the Asura and the Aces.

Quote:
Ironically, if RF6 really finished off everything else fast because of concentration of forces, you'd have come under greater criticism for "hogging" valuable assets to yourself and failing in TSAB's duty to "Protect all citizens." It'd almost have been better if RF6 had to struggle a bit, "justifying" your bringing everyone along.

Which is just another reason I insist on at least having a quick-go at cleaning out the Ground Numbers.

Presumably, whatever the TSAB is doing, it is at least marginally working most of the time. There may have been lots of un-necessary casualties, but all those cases will be marked as successes. In that light, perhaps they are studying history, but given the lens they were viewing history through, dispersal is the logical result of their historical experience (though perhaps not the correct one).
Interesting analysis overall. That could very well be the TSAB mindset. The problem remains though that the TSAB can't reliably produce combat leaders whatever tactical doctrine is has is neither well thought out nor comprehensive.

I also suggested eliminating the ground numbers through overmatch with the Aces on the way to the Cradle and Jail's lab as an option. Ironically enough, I was accused of tactical myopia because the numbers would all "hide" and RF6 would be "forced to play cat and mouse". It would be "impossible for RF6 to adapt to the situation" and simply accept the dispersal as buying a fair bit of time and immediately moving on to the next target.

I think that was the same thread where I was admonished with the remark, "Trying to secure everywhere is never a tactical error."
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Old 2007-09-20, 13:11   Link #156
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Whether you like it or not, Midchilda and lot of other worlds expect the TSAB to be a credible military force.
Why would those other worlds expect that? As far as we know that are no other worlds to fight/guard against.
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Old 2007-09-20, 13:16   Link #157
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Why would those other worlds expect that? As far as we know that are no other worlds to fight/guard against.
Do you really think that Midchilda is the only administered world? Beyond that, the TSAB is also expected to counter inter-dimensional threats. That's the whole purpose of its navy.

That was probably the most minor point I brought up. What about the other points? Do you have any argument with them?
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Old 2007-09-20, 16:42   Link #158
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Do you really think that Midchilda is the only administered world?
The TSAB is a multi-world organization, but we have heard nothing about any past wars or that there are any high-tech worlds that aren't a member of the TSAB.
This would explain the arrogance and the overly strong bureaucracy of the TSAB.

Quote:
Beyond that, the TSAB is also expected to counter inter-dimensional threats. That's the whole purpose of its navy.
The ships mostly serves as a mode of transport and if the mages don't win, then they blow the lost logica up. They seem to have the wrong weapons or lack of them for any real military action.

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That was probably the most minor point I brought up. What about the other points? Do you have any argument with them?
I think that we just won't agree about the training.
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Old 2007-09-20, 17:02   Link #159
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The ships mostly serves as a mode of transport and if the mages don't win, then they blow the lost logica up. They seem to have the wrong weapons or lack of them for any real military action.
That is no different than the TSAB as a whole. It is being expected to perform military functions regardless of how well equipped or organized it is to carry out those functions.

The TSAB is the first and only line of defense that Midchilda has. If it should fail, there is nothing to fall back on.

Quote:
I think that we just won't agree about the training.
The exact nature of their training is a red herring. The fundamental problem is whatever they have been training for, that training hasn't enabled them to do anything well nor has it developed capable leaders.

I'll refer you back to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, what a police force needs to handle is Security with some offensives. What we are shown demonstrates that TSAB's offensive planning (Ep21, of course, but also Ep24, where a failure of flank security apparently caused the wipeout of all of Zest's old unit) and security planning (Ep7, Ep17), as well as meeting engagement (Ep11-12) is lacking.

So, if you can't attack, you can't defend/security and you can't handle meeting engagements .. well, what's left.
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Old 2007-09-20, 17:27   Link #160
BBM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
That is no different than the TSAB as a whole. It is being expected to perform military functions regardless of how well equipped or organized it is to carry out those functions.

The TSAB is the first and only line of defense that Midchilda has. If it should fail, there is nothing to fall back on.
So? There is nothing to suggest that they need a real military. I would be surprised if the TSAB ever fought against a military organization.

TSAB is an overglorified, under trained, bureaucratic police force. A product of an interplanetary utopia that has no use or desire for a real military. Good at stopping that lone crazy researcher or that lost logica smuggler, but completely outmaneuvered by any large group using basic tactics.
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