Japanese Culture

[sergho]

is it true that women on public transportation are groped by strange men?

i've heard that Japanese women often will group up, with older women on the outside edges of the group to keep frisky men at bay.

it happens a lot in mexico

machismo kind of thing

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by sergho

is it true that women on public transportation are groped by strange men?

i've heard that Japanese women often will group up, with older women on the outside edges of the group to keep frisky men at bay.

it happens a lot in mexico

machismo kind of thing

It is very true, unfortunately. They even have women-only hours (or maybe whole train lines that are women-only, I forget), where only women can ride the trains, to combat train groping. There's even a specific phrase for train groping (yes, it's common and popular enough to gain its own nickname), but I can't remember that either.

The reason it happens is because in Japan, train riding is extremely popular, perhaps too popular, as trains are often packed to the brim with people. They even pay train line employees to push and force people onto trains. Train groping is just one of the unfortunate results of extreme popularity density.

My question: why, oh why do any schools in Japan make their girls wear bloomers (read: cheerleader shorts ) in gym class? It's especially glaring to me that male gym goers wear actual shorts, so they are spared of suffering from such obscene displays of their bodies. I don't like it one bit (like they care ), and I don't understand why only girls wear them. Why could that be?

...And no, I'm not just saying this because girls always wear cheerleader shorts thick bikini bottoms bloomers in anime. I know that that's just fetishes. But why in real life, oh why?

[sergho]

i heard on bbc, india had those all female trains, or maybe just a car or two

we american males are so under appreciated by our women. we should get a did-not-grope-you-all-year present. like sees chocolates or something

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by sergho

i heard on bbc, india had those all female trains, or maybe just a car or two

we american males are so under appreciated by our women. we should get a did-not-grope-you-all-year present. like sees chocolates or something

...I appreciate you.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by Komari

My question: why, oh why do any schools in Japan make their girls wear bloomers (read: cheerleader shorts ) in gym class? It's especially glaring to me that male gym goers wear actual shorts, so they are spared of suffering from such obscene displays of their bodies. I don't like it one bit (like they care ), and I don't understand why only girls wear them. Why could that be?

I don't know why they used it a lot in the past -- and I'm too afraid of googling "bloomers" to find out -- but the good news is that it is fading fast, being more a quaint relic of the past than a reality for most modern Japanese schoolgirls. Even anime and manga which stays a bit behind reality (most authors having gone to school in an earlier time) have been making fun of bloomers as a fetishist's item rather than a gym class reality more and more lately.

Or so I heard.

[Vexx]

Aye... much of anime derives from the creator's memories of their experience (heavily ladled with wish-fantasy perhaps) so quite often the school culture presented more reflects the 80s or '90s. I am starting to see more "up-to-date" school setting series but mostly in the comedy realm. Many of the VN adapted romances have a 'nostalgic past' feeling to them, which tells you a bit about the target audiences (late teen or 20-something unattached male).

[Kudryavka]

Hm, well at least it's getting gone. I just don't understand why it was there in the first place. My peace has returned to me somewhat.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Aye... much of anime derives from the creator's memories of their experience (heavily ladled with wish-fantasy perhaps) so quite often the school culture presented more reflects the 80s or '90s. I am starting to see more "up-to-date" school setting series but mostly in the comedy realm. Many of the VN adapted romances have a 'nostalgic past' feeling to them, which tells you a bit about the target audiences (late teen or 20-something unattached male).

That's interesting, because I didn't even know that you see a reflection of the past in these series, but when I watched them I definitely did pick up on that nostalgic, sometimes almost regretful or bittersweet atmosphere. It seeps through even into the stories themselves to an ignorant viewer like me. Says something about nostalgia as an emotion.

[Qikz]

Originally Posted by Komari

It is very true, unfortunately. They even have women-only hours (or maybe whole train lines that are women-only, I forget), where only women can ride the trains, to combat train groping. There's even a specific phrase for train groping (yes, it's common and popular enough to gain its own nickname), but I can't remember that either.

Isn't that Chikan or something? I think that's the nickname for it.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Wait, what exactly is useful about knowing how to swim with clothes on? Even with someone drowning I think I'd have time to rip my shirt and pants off.

Perhaps not if you'd been driving through Somerville yesterday.

Originally Posted by sergho

is it true that women on public transportation are groped by strange men?

Originally Posted by Komari

It is very true, unfortunately. They even have women-only hours (or maybe whole train lines that are women-only, I forget), where only women can ride the trains, to combat train groping.

Women-only cars on Japanese trains date back to 1912 according to Wikipedia. Starting in 2000, a number of train operators have re-introduced them. Groping (chikan) is apparently a widespread problem; in one survey two-thirds of female passengers in their twenties and thirties reported that they had been groped on trains, and the majority had been victimized frequently. Not surprisingly, groping has been the subject of a number of hentai anime.

My question: why, oh why do any schools in Japan make their girls wear bloomers (read: cheerleader shorts ) in gym class?

The bloomers question has been asked before in this thread. (Irenicus, you may not want to follow this link. ) The consensus then (2007) was that they were being phased out, but Komari's inquiry suggests that perhaps that judgment was premature.

As an American, I find it amusing that the Japanese use the term "bloomers" for this type of garment. They were originally created in the 19th century and became associated with the feminist Amelia Bloomer. Those bloomers looked like this:


Bloomer advocated for this style of dress and wrote "The costume of women should be suited to her wants and necessities. It should conduce at once to her health, comfort, and usefulness; and, while it should not fail also to conduce to her personal adornment, it should make that end of secondary importance."

[Yu Ominae]

I rode on an all-female train carriage in the subway a few times, way after the 9 AM hour.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

The bloomers question has been asked before in this thread. (Irenicus, you may not want to follow this link. ) The consensus then (2007) was that they were being phased out, but Komari's inquiry suggests that perhaps that judgment was premature.

As an American, I find it amusing that the Japanese use the term "bloomers" for this type of garment. They were originally created in the 19th century and became associated with the feminist Amelia Bloomer. Those bloomers looked like this:


Bloomer advocated for this style of dress and wrote "The costume of women should be suited to her wants and necessities. It should conduce at once to her health, comfort, and usefulness; and, while it should not fail also to conduce to her personal adornment, it should make that end of secondary importance."

I'm pretty sure that in the western world, bloomers were used to preserve modesty, i.e. to keep those sexy legs hidden if you get a bit too much wind under your skirt, and to keep them warm in the winter. I've no idea why the Japanese call those Daisy Duke things "bloomers", since it defeats the purpose of wearing bloomers entirely (they don't hide any leg, and they sure don't keep legs warm unless I'm missing something). I think they call them that because Japanese bloomers used to be poofy.

[Vexx]

Actually, in American schools in the 70s (when I was in high school), the girls wore shorts identical to the ones we see in anime and they were also called "bloomers" by the school. The boys and girls were segregated for P.E. as well.

P.E. was every day then and you actually exercised and showered afterwards.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Actually, in American schools in the 70s (when I was in high school), the girls wore shorts identical to the ones we see in anime and they were also called "bloomers" by the school. The boys and girls were segregated for P.E. as well.

P.E. was every day then and you actually exercised and showered afterwards.

Yeah, but both guys and girls wore those basketball shorts. I'm not mad that they're being worn at all; I'm mad that only girls wore them in Japan.

A bit off-topic, but may I ask if you had gym slackers in your classes as well? I've seen them, the ones who whine and can't even do five good pushups, don't dress, get any lower than a C. I wonder if they're the product of the waning pressure on gym in high schools.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Komari

Yeah, but both guys and girls wore those basketball shorts. I'm not mad that they're being worn at all; I'm mad that only girls wore them in Japan.

Um.. heh. Showing my age perhaps but no. In the US in the 1970s, guys wore mid-thigh gym shorts and the girls wore those things called bloomers. They were cut different and hung differently - they were cotton rather than polyester. This is the mid-70s when girls were still mostly not allowed to wear pants at school (wasn't until mid-high school that those fashion-horrid "pantsuits" or non-hiphugger jeans were allowed by the administration). My wife was in high school with me (we were dating at the time), she was "top 10", student council, blahblah... and got sent home for wearing the wrong kind of jeans. She came back in her micro-mini and was told "that looked fine" (her thoughts: pervert...).

Guys today would feel naked in the shorts we wore (my two sons refuse to wear any shorts that don't come to the top of the knee or lower). The girls had P.E. in segregated areas (can't have a boy accidentally see a girl exercising ya know... yes, it was silly - we always suspected the administration of being latent lolita-philes).

When you look at Japanese culture... I often find it useful to tell people in the US to ignore the shiny future tech and set the cultural wayback machine about T-30yrs. Currently, Japan today feels very much like the 1970s or early 80s.

A bit off-topic, but may I ask if you had gym slackers in your classes as well? I've seen them, the ones who whine and can't even do five good pushups, don't dress, get any lower than a C. I wonder if they're the product of the waning pressure on gym in high schools.

They're the product of the instant someone decided that the coach couldn't MAKE a student do anything (very bad move). They're also the product of non-daily P.E., terrible diets, and general inactivity. They're the product of a lack of community/team support --- basically all the things that we could take a tip from the Japanese on. (and the Japanese could take a few tips from us as well but that's a different topic).

There are always slacker/whiners ... but when I was in school, if someone slacked on the quarter-mile run - we all did it again. And again. And their names were called out so we knew who the bastard was. The coaches would mostly adjust for people if they really were doing their best - but there was the occasional sadistic coach (stuff of anime).

Interestingly, being "significantly overweight" was also a rarity - but the present day epidemic is a combination of American nutrition failure and lack of community support for participatory activities.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Vexx

They're the product of the instant someone decided that the coach couldn't MAKE a student do anything (very bad move).

Well my high school gym teacher in fifth grade (an ex-Marine) saw me lean against a wall after doing laps in the gym. He promptly told me to do more laps. Afterwards I nearly fell down a flight of stairs because I so exacerbated a condition in my knee called "Osgood-Schlatters Disease" that I had to abstain from most physical exercise for two years. I missed the most important period in a young boy's physical and sports development and gained weight that I didn't really lose until late high-school/college years. Even today I get twinges and probably have some posture issues that all date back to this period.

Apparently he thought that a 10-year-old boy should follow the training regimen of a recruit at Camp Lejeune.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Well my high school gym teacher in fifth grade (an ex-Marine) saw me lean against a wall after doing laps in the gym. He promptly told me to do more laps. Afterwards I nearly fell down a flight of stairs because I so exacerbated a condition in my knee called "Osgood-Schlatters Disease" that I had to abstain from most physical exercise for two years. I missed the most important period in a young boy's physical and sports development and gained weight that I didn't really lose until late high-school/college years. Even today I get twinges and probably have some posture issues that all date back to this period.

Apparently he thought that a 10-year-old boy should follow the training regimen of a recruit at Camp Lejeune.

Yeah, like I said, there were sadistic coaches. And we all know that any time there's a rule against doing something - its because some asshat (like your coach) abused the situation... and in his case didn't seem to have a grasp on what 10-12 year olds can do versus bootcamp 17-19 year olds. It takes a dim rock not to see the difference between struggling/overamped and slacking. My older son is a personal trainer and he'd have been all over that guy as an incompetent idiot. I had one coach who was somewhat the same sort of abusive idiot but his own football players would interject if the "instruction" was getting out of hand. And.... we're getting off-topic

I just think Japanese culture and American culture could pick up some tips from each other (though they seem to keep picking up the Bad Ideas in both directions).

[sergho]

Part of the reason I watch anime is to get some insight into Japanese culture.

How is the whole WWII thing looked upon in Japan? I've heard rumors that WWII is glossed or skipped over in history books.

Japan sent an engineering unit to participate in the Iraq War. That's the first time they've used their military since WWII far as I know.

How did they view the Clint Eastwood movie? The name escapes me at the moment. It was about the Japanese in WWII, Iwo Jima I think. Was it Letters from Iwo Jima?

I was watching that 3d anime, CATSHIT ONE today and these questions came to mind.

Is there a fear among the Japanese that they might backslide and the military could seize control again? I know today that sounds silly but right after the war it might not have been so silly.

I hear you can suffer penalties if you fly the imperial flag.

Germany is one of the more pacifist nations around today. Nazi stuff is outlawed there.

[ryohei]

Originally Posted by sergho

Part of the reason I watch anime is to get some insight into Japanese culture.

How is the whole WWII thing looked upon in Japan? I've heard rumors that WWII is glossed or skipped over in history books.

Japan sent an engineering unit to participate in the Iraq War. That's the first time they've used their military since WWII far as I know.

How did they view the Clint Eastwood movie? The name escapes me at the moment. It was about the Japanese in WWII, Iwo Jima I think. Was it Letters from Iwo Jima?

I was watching that 3d anime, CATSHIT ONE today and these questions came to mind.

Is there a fear among the Japanese that they might backslide and the military could seize control again? I know today that sounds silly but right after the war it might not have been so silly.

I hear you can suffer penalties if you fly the imperial flag.

Germany is one of the more pacifist nations around today. Nazi stuff is outlawed there.

You know Japan so precisely! your comment is very interesting.

We don't study about WWII so much. In history class, mainly we study about 5th-19th century, because old Japanese construct our style, letters, religion, and many culture in this age. The reason Japanese teachers and government do not teach WWII so precisely is..... hmmmm.. I guess this topic is politic. I mean WWII has many faces, WWII told by European and by American and by Asian and by African are all different, so choice of good knowledge for students about WWII is too difficult. Japanese don't like to talk about politics, so we avoid WWII.

I have never seen "Letters from Iwo jima", so I introduce Japanese comments from Yahoo movie review.
"American make this, it's a wonderful fact."
"I guess the message of this movie is "There are no evil one in the war, there are only justice and the other justice." This idea is unusual in Hollywood movies."
"Clint express both of courageous Japanese and cruel Japanese. This is fair."

My English vocabulary is poor, so I apologize if there're bad words or expressions.

[Vexx]

I believe Clint Eastwood was actually awarded a medal or honor from the Japanese government for his production of the Iwo Jima movie.

Here it is --- direct from the Emperor: The Order of the Rising Sun, http://film.culturalnews.net/eastwood.html

As far as "military seizing control again" ... very unlikely to happen. There's a very small noisy annoying right-wing nationalist faction, but the vast majority of Japanese are intensely uncomfortable with the idea of projecting military power outside of self-defense.

Germany... for lack of a better way to say it, has probably over-reacted in their suppression of nazi symbology. Its hard to remember what you never get exposed to. The current neo-nazi and fascist elements rely on public ignorance of history to make inroads.