Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

But the writers of the show do care about genre expectations, and part of the way in which they construct the narrative (the plot development that you do care about) is to make a point about genre conventions. For example, to discover that QB is a villain is shocking, not just because the viewer has followed the narrative to this point and is surprised, but because the viewer has watched Sailor Moon, Card Captor Sakura, etc and has learned to expect that the cute creature is always the heroine's best buddy. It's the upsetting of genre expectations that makes this show so mind-blowing. I am amazed you don't care about that.

That Incubator was a villain was thoroughly foreshadowed. Why would I be surprised. But that's not the point anyway. The point is you can't do a proper narrative just by subverting genre conventions.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

You make a nice contrast between the girls' desire to save particular individuals, the ones they love, and QB's abstract goal of saving the universe in general. But does this really represent "a conflict of values between Madoka and Incubator?"

Yes, it's a clear conflict of values.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Yes, Madoka does identify QB as an enemy, because his willingness to sacrifice individuals for his conception of the greater good conflicts with her moral idealism. But the real question is whether Madoka's idealism fits with the world as it really is. The conflict here lies not between values, but between the moral idealism that characterizes the magical girl genre, and the real world.

No, the world doesn't have values, only people (characters) have. You can't do a proper narrative that way. You're letting what you want to see the story develop blind you from the actual story IMO.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

None of this makes sense to me, but that doesn't matter. If it is really QB's fault that Madoka (and Sayaka and Kyoko's) naive idealism doesn't work, then he really is the antagonist, as you say: he can then be beaten, and we can have a happy ending. Look, Ma! no tragedy! But if the idealism doesn't work because that's the way the world is, and the point of the narrative is for the naive girl to be disillusioned, and thereby to gain an adult apprehension of the world as it is, then--no matter what ending we get, even one in which QB is shoved out of the picture somehow--QB is not the antagonist, the world is essentially a tragic place, and tragedy is only resolved by the device of growing up, and bearing the pain and suffering as the inevitable weight of adulthood.

My money is on the latter sort of ending. Madoka will grow up.

This isn't about idealism. And I'm not expecting a perfect happy ending. I'm expecting something akin to the end of Eva (in EoE). I can see this series playing out in a similar way...

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

QB is getting what he wants, for nothing. Where is his price to pay?

This is a good point. He pays with miracles, but the energy he invests in those miracle is not equal to the energy he takes from the girls (evidently). This is not equivalent exchange, and I bet that's why all his miracles eventually come to shit.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

But the writers of the show do care about genre expectations, and part of the way in which they construct the narrative (the plot development that you do care about) is to make a point about genre conventions. For example, to discover that QB is a villain is shocking, not just because the viewer has followed the narrative to this point and is surprised, but because the viewer has watched Sailor Moon, Card Captor Sakura, etc and has learned to expect that the cute creature is always the heroine's best buddy. It's the upsetting of genre expectations that makes this show so mind-blowing. I am amazed you don't care about that.

Gen and/or SHAFT overplayed their hand as it pertained to Kyubey. They made him too creepy and suspicious in the very early going, hence making many of the reveals of recent episodes far less "mind blowing" for a lot of viewers. Sure, the simple idea of a villainous magical girl familiar is indeed a major subversion of magical girl genre conventions, but this idea was not executed as well as it could have been, and hence its likely desired impact is somewhat mooted.

Honestly, by Episode 4 or so, the vast majority of viewers would have been more surprised by a good Kyubey than by a villainous one. As someone who defended him until Episode 8, I can unquestionably attest to that.

You make a nice contrast between the girls' desire to save particular individuals, the ones they love, and QB's abstract goal of saving the universe in general. But does this really represent "a conflict of values between Madoka and Incubator?"

The problem with Kyubey's goal is that it's about something that is far off. By Kyubey's own admission to Madoka, it won't be a pressing issue at least until humans start to actively travel the stars.

If Kyubey's goal was tied to something of a more immediate grave concern, then we would have a much more compelling moral conflict here. As is, though, it's rather easy (and probably right) for most viewers to side with the girls against Kyubey, and indeed, that's what I'm now doing myself.

Yes, Madoka does identify QB as an enemy, because his willingness to sacrifice individuals for his conception of the greater good conflicts with her moral idealism. But the real question is whether Madoka's idealism fits with the world as it really is.

I don't see why it doesn't.

The problem is this: If you take Kyubey and his race out of the equation, then all the conflicts of this anime disappear with them. It's a fairly safe bet, at this juncture, that the whole magical girl/witch system is a construct of Kyubey and his race. So if they weren't around, Madoka and Sayaka would have simply continued on living their happy and normal lives as of Episode 1.

The conflict here lies not between values, but between the moral idealism that characterizes the magical girl genre, and the real world.

Is there such a conflict? There are heroic people in the real world, you know. Firemen, police officers (at least some), people who work in soup kitchens to help the poor.

In any event, when the only thing that conflicts with a character's moral idealism within a narrative is that narrative's most unreal aspect (i.e. the alien race of Kyubey, and their magical girl/witch system), then it's a flawed argument to say that the narrative is effectively critiquing idealism with "realism", imo.


Madoka can "grow up", and not be "naive", with out becoming a cynic.

[Proto]

The problem with Kyubey's goal is that it's about something that is far off.

Difficult races could different perceptions of the flow of time. Think of elves in about any fantasy book.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Proto

Difficult races could different perceptions of the flow of time. Think of elves in about any fantasy book.

True, but that's only of relevance to Kyubey and his people. Not to humans.

Arguing to a human that he or she should sacrifice his or her life for a problem that's several hundred years away (at the very least) is an argument that even the most idealistic of people would raise their eyebrows to. It really has nothing to do with idealism vs. cynicism or realism.

[jeroz]

Why do I have a feeling that the conversation between the bystanders on the train in ep8 kind of mirrors what Kyubey has said in this episode?

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The problem is this: If you take Kyubey and his race out of the equation, then all the conflicts of this anime disappear with them. It's a fairly safe bet, at this juncture, that the whole magical girl/witch system is a construct of Kyubey and his race. So if they weren't around, Madoka and Sayaka would have simply continued on living their happy and normal lives as of Episode 1.

See, I think this is exactly wrong. Once the girls have a magical capacity, you can take QB and his kind out of the anime, and all the moral conflicts of the anime remain. Look, the problems that Sayaka runs into with Kyosuke, and that Kyoko runs into with her father, have nothing to do with QB. Had they gained their powers through the effects of a magic ring, the same tragic events would have followed.

Magic is a form of power, and therefore inevitably has a cost, together with a slew of unintended consequences. Once you start exercising power, you are locked into the real world, which is messy, where good intentions can lead to bad eventualities, and vice versa.

The girls approach the role of MS with naivete. The narrative educates them in reality. You don't need QB at all to bring that naivete up short. The ordinary world will do that by itself quite nicely.

I disagree that the process amounts to an induction into cynicism. Cynicism is just idealism in the negative--being realistic is neither. The only idealism I care about anyway is realistic--because it alone has a real chance of making a difference.

[SeaDoor]

*sigh*

There must be something wrong with me...I keep imagining Madoka's soul gem being shaped like a drill.



(yes, I do suspect that we've had her soul gem waved in our faces several times so far.)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

See, I think this is exactly wrong.

I think that your take on this anime may not be exactly wrong, but it is considerably off. If Gen intended to have the thematic drive that you're perceiving here, he didn't do a very good job of it, in my opinion.

However, this anime is largely well-written, so I think that the truth of the matter may very well be that Gen isn't going for the sort of thematic drive that you're perceiving here.

Once the girls have a magical capacity, you can take QB and his kind out of the anime, and all the moral conflicts of the anime remain. Look, the problems that Sayaka runs into with Kyosuke, and that Kyoko runs into with her father, have nothing to do with QB.

Those aren't the problems that drive this anime. They simply provide an exploitable situation that Kyubey, the true antagonist of the work, can take advantage of.

The problem that drives this anime is clearly the magical girl/witch system itself. The system itself is rigged. Obviously so.

Had they gained their powers through the effects of a magic ring, the same tragic events would have followed.

Does a magic ring inevitably turn you into witch, unless you die first? Some magical rings might do something like that (the One Ring of Lord of the Rings comes to mind) but not all do. There's no such massive downside to the Green Lantern rings of comic books, for example (last I checked anyway).

Magic is a form of power, and therefore inevitably has a cost, together with a slew of unintended consequences.

But all of the unintended consequences of this anime are entirely, or at least almost entirely, due to how the magical girl system is intentionally designed to victimize those who enter into it.

This isn't like, say, Sayaka and Kyoko became magical girls, and became drunk on power, and hence started to abuse their powers. It isn't like, say, their sense of responsibility cuts into their personal lives, and hence their idealism comes at a personal cost (as it does for, say, someone like Spider-Man).

Much of Sayaka's depression, which led to her demise, was due to the soul gem revelation. That soul gem revelation was an aspect to the magical girl deal that there was no way Sayaka could have known about, or even had reason to suspect. It has absolutely nothing to do with Sayaka's idealism. Nothing at all.

Well, unless you're saying that Sayaka was too trusting of Kyubey just because he seemed innocent and cute. Maybe Gen is saying that you shouldn't trust a book by its cover. Seems rather fitting given the "cover" of this anime.

But Sayaka's idealistic desire to help others was not misplaced. What's wrong with her wanting to help Kamijo, or protect people from witches? Aren't these traits of hers admirable?

Once you start exercising power, you are locked into the real world, which is messy, where good intentions can lead to bad eventualities, and vice versa.

Sure. "With great power comes great responsibility" - Stan Lee. One of my personal favorite quotes.

But I don't see how either Kyoko or Sayaka were shirking that. Quite the contrary, in fact, at least at first.

The girls approach the role of MS with naivete.

What do you mean exactly? What, precisely, was naive about their approach to it? Let's break this down to specifics, if you don't mind.

The narrative educates them in reality.

By having them victimized by a deceptive and manipulative alien?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Demon Eyes

Also, am I the only one (Not counting HomuHomu of course) who totally loved Madoka's character through and through from the first second of the show?

To put it bluntly, Madoka seemed way out of place in this show even more than HomuHomu. Others hated her for her uselessness but to me she was the most useful and most intact character so far!

I see little to no bad points in her.

Oh wel...

No.....I like Madoka too...She hasn't shone yet but wait until the end and see...

Originally Posted by Candyshark

Sayaka disapointed me with that move so acompony Sayaka is better oprion than support Homura through Walpurgisnacht. I hoped she had more backbone. Fighting against all odds doesn't seem as an inspiring virtue, hmm? Defeatism last thing i excpected from her. It is heart-wrecking how torn apart girls are and whither away in the loneliness.

Where exactly did she suicide out of depression or giving up? She wanted to accompany Sayaka that was all...I mean if she were really a defeatist, she could have just thrown down her spear and stood there but she didn't.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

See, I think this is exactly wrong. Once the girls have a magical capacity, you can take QB and his kind out of the anime, and all the moral conflicts of the anime remain. Look, the problems that Sayaka runs into with Kyosuke, and that Kyoko runs into with her father, have nothing to do with QB. Had they gained their powers through the effects of a magic ring, the same tragic events would have followed.

Magic is a form of power, and therefore inevitably has a cost, together with a slew of unintended consequences. Once you start exercising power, you are locked into the real world, which is messy, where good intentions can lead to bad eventualities, and vice versa.

The girls approach the role of MS with naivete. The narrative educates them in reality. You don't need QB at all to bring that naivete up short. The ordinary world will do that by itself quite nicely.

I disagree that the process amounts to an induction into cynicism. Cynicism is just idealism in the negative--being realistic is neither. The only idealism I care about anyway is realistic--because it alone has a real chance of making a difference.

The only "reality" QB is suggesting is "The real world is run by evil people, so just kill yourselves already because there is no hope".

That's not reality; that's Fatalism.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Demon Eyes

Also, am I the only one (Not counting HomuHomu of course) who totally loved Madoka's character through and through from the first second of the show?

To put it bluntly, Madoka seemed way out of place in this show even more than HomuHomu. Others hated her for her uselessness but to me she was the most useful and most intact character so far!

I see little to no bad points in her.

Oh wel...

Not at all, I've been a fan of Madoka's since the beginning. I must admit, in episode 8 I was a little disappointed in the actions she took, but I could understand them. I enjoyed Madoka's character most in episode 4 and episode 9.

[Deconstructor]

I like Madoka because she is so emotionally weak and fragile.
That way, intense characters like Kyoko and Sayaka can burn out spectacularly while Madoka watches on the sideline.
If Madoka was made of the same stuff as Nanoha, she would be unable to cry so hard from Kyoko and Sayaka's death. Being powerless increases the emotional impact of a friend's death.
Madoka is an overly timid person just trying to do the right thing. So far, Madoka has not done the wrong thing (contract with Kyubey) but she has come very close.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

sayaka is dead. what's gonna happen to her wish?

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu

sayaka is dead. what's gonna happen to her wish?

That depends on if the wish is considered Kyubey's magic or Sayaka's. From Kyubey's park conversation with Madoka in ep08, it sounds like the wish is all Kyubey.

If for some reason, the wish's magic comes directly from the Puella Magi, Sayaka's boy toy is screwed. Remember that Homura was restrained by Mami's magic until the moment she died. I doubt that's the case though. Even Homura admits that the wishes are miracles. It's becoming Meguca that's the trap.

[Dr. Casey]

Madoka's always been my favorite character, I'm eager to see where the last three episodes take her from here, given that she definitely matured into a stronger person this episode and seems to be taking a more active role (Well, given that it's just Madoka and her girlfriend left, she kinda has to). Madoka's voice actor has given most of my favorite lines in the series... I've always thought her "Okiroooo!" (Or however you spell it) when she wakes up her mom in the first episode is adorable, same for the "My name is Kaname Madoka!" when she introduces herself to Kyoko.

Ah, and speaking of Kyubey, I think the way he acts at the end of the first episode (And some of the second) is kind of funny keeping in mind what we've learned about him since. It's so fake... he has a constant falsetto and chirps every last thing he says. "Hi~! I'm Kyubey! ^___^" Phony bastard.

As for Sayaka... I've actually never considered the possibility that wishes get reversed if the mahou shoujo that made them dies. I'm guessing it doesn't work that way and Kamijou's hand is still fine, though it would be interesting if he's gone back to being crippled.

It's becoming Meguca that's the trap.

[justavisitor]

I like Madoka as well..can't blame her for not doing anything because what she is dealing with is a very serious issue...no one wants to sacrifice his/her life and it's perfectly fine for her not to stay at the sideline in my opinion.

That being said, I wonder if Madoka's wish at the end is to reset so everyone except Madoka will get a happy ending?? Then Homu will try to stop that by going back to the past and we got one big loop at the end XD

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

homura's going back in time would never end unless she accepts that she can continue with her life without the one person that she loves. BUt seeing how great her devotion to madoka is, i doubt this time loop would stop.. i hope things would change. i just can't stand the thought of homura going through all this pain all over again,nonstop. this kind of end would be the WORST.DX

[guuchan]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

He's not really defending himself...if anything I get the feeling he's mocking her.....

and why would he need to defend himself when he's basically slowly driving her against a dead end?

Because that's what Kyuubee said literally (「弁解」). May it be not his true intention, it's moronic enough for him to even say that.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that your take on this anime may not be exactly wrong, but it is considerably off. If Gen intended to have the thematic drive that you're perceiving here, he didn't do a very good job of it, in my opinion.

However, this anime is largely well-written, so I think that the truth of the matter may very well be that Gen isn't going for the sort of thematic drive that you're perceiving here.

Yes, I think the series is well-written, especially in the sense that the writers have really thought through the issues they are discussing. Also, the narrative is tight: each episode brings forward a new set of revelations and repercussions that are organically connected to what has come before. I'd be interested in hearing a native speaker's take on the show's language, and how it compares rhetorically with other mahou shoujo shows.

I also think the show is deep, in that it allows the kind of argument that we are having.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Those aren't the problems that drive this anime. They simply provide an exploitable situation that Kyubey, the true antagonist of the work, can take advantage of.

OK, I am really trying to understand and to figure out where you are coming from. How's this: for you, the narrative follows the story of how each of the girls crosses the line and becomes a mahou shoujo. As you see it, the catalyst who arranges and connives at this decision is our friend QB. Since he is exploiting the girls for his own cosmological purposes, he is in fact the antagonist who at once drives the narrative and is the focal point of the girls' resistance to the fate he is trying to force upon them.

That seems a reasonable view of the anime. It describes a lot of what happens week to week in the plot, covers the will-she-or-won't-she question about Madoka's decision to become a magical girl, and clearly identifies and focuses upon QB's perfidious character, the unveiling of which is clearly an overall plot point.

But. (You knew I was going to say that, right?) QB's manipulation and exploitation are never decisive reasons in any girl's decision to become a mahou shoujo. Mami becomes one because she has no choice: either she does so or she dies in the car accident. Kyoko never mentions QB once when she relates to Sayaka how she became a magical girl: she never expresses any resentment toward QB, but treats her decision and its consequences as if pertain strictly to herself. In Sayaka's case, QB does try to trick her into becoming a MS, as when he urges her to decide immediately in order to help out in the fight against the witch, but she refuses, insisting that she can only make such an important decision deliberately. In the end, she makes the decision for Kyosuke's sake: it is his need, and her feelings for him, which lead her to decide to make the contract. QB does not figure at all in her decision.

That is true in every case. It's not accidental. The anime is careful to put the moral weight for the decision squarely upon the individual girl. So the idea that QB is the agent responsible for the girls' decision, who manipulates them into deciding, does not bear the test of the evidence.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The problem that drives this anime is clearly the magical girl/witch system itself. The system itself is rigged. Obviously so.




Does a magic ring inevitably turn you into witch, unless you die first? Some magical rings might do something like that (the One Ring of Lord of the Rings comes to mind) but not all do. There's no such massive downside to the Green Lantern rings of comic books, for example (last I checked anyway).




But all of the unintended consequences of this anime are entirely, or at least almost entirely, due to how the magical girl system is intentionally designed to victimize those who enter into it.

This is a much stronger argument. While we don't know yet that QB and his kind have in fact designed the magical girl system, certainly they are taking advantage of it. And in going around and handing out wishes, and in doing whatever he does to trigger the girl's magical potential into reality, QB is certainly responsible for populating the system with victims. See how much I agree with you!

But I think this is where you and I disagree most crucially. You see the magical girl system as a machine, whose cruelty and exploitative capacity is distinctive to it. I on the other hand suspect that the magical girl system is instead a mirror of ordinary reality, in which power and its exercise must be paid for, one way or the other. I have already cited the magical girls' stories as instances of intrinsically human predicaments. I think that simply by having the capacity for power, the girls are already implicated in a world of gain and loss which inevitably bring pain and suffering in their wake.

What this says about ordinary life is very dark. But the anime does not shy away from saying just these dark things. Remember what Homura tells Madoka after Madoka lists Sayaka's virtues: "She's really a good girl! She's kind, she's brave, she tries to solve everyone's problems!" To which Homura says grimly, "Those are fatal flaws for a magical girl. With kindness comes naivete. Courage becomes foolhardiness. And dedication has no reward. Those who don't understand this are not fit to be magical girls." Or take what Kyoko tells Sayaka: "When you wish for hope, you create an equivalent despair. Happiness evens out and the world stays in balance."

What I want to understand is how the anime can make statements like these, which speak to a darkness in life as such.

I think the anime is skeptical of idealism. To quote Homura again, "Keep in mind kindness can bring you even greater troubles."

You have written many other interesting and cogent ideas, and I wish I could respond to them all. Please accept my apologies for jumping over your words. Let me just say this. Basically, I just don't find the way you approach the narrative, with QB as the antagonist, to be a fruitful way of making sense of the anime's dark comments about human life. Alien invasion stories do not help me understand human suffering. Maybe the anime is just about an alien invasion, but I don't think so. I think the anime is using elements of an alien invasion story, along with elements of a magical girl story, to talk about these larger human issues.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by guuchan

Because that's what Kyuubee said literally (「弁解」). May it be not his true intention, it's moronic enough for him to even say that.

Yes, I know he said benkai but I get the feeling he's rubbing it in her face. The choice of word just makes it hit harder.

Or he genuinely doesn't understand. After all, he really expects them to just roll over and die for him as being natural.