[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Haguruma, if it's not a problem I've been wondering if we can ask you to type down the new red truths and blue truths in Ep 8 that came up in the battle between Will, Dlanor and the goats and the one that came up in the battle between Battler and Erika so we can reason better on them.

Here you go btw:

Spoiler for EP8 Manga Red Truth:

■Chapter 1: Towards Rokkenjima
At the beginning of every game Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead.

■Chapter 2: 6 Year Old Ange
Ushiromiya Kinzo dies before the family conference of 1985. He cannot hold a Halloween party in 1986!!

■Chapter 5: Restoration Ceremony
As the one who constructed this game, I can declare that the relatives passed their time getting along well.

■Chapter 11: Bern Sets Her Question
"I will speak in Red. There exists no method to lock or unlock any door without a master key from the outside. Of course, from the inside locking and unlocking via the internal lock is possible."

"On this gameboard there exist no keys beside the master keys."

"What is the number of master keys?"
"There are 5. Each servant possesses one key each. Right now Genji's key has already been destroyed, therefore only 4 remain. Furthermore, the master key is always fastened to their bodies, the keys cannot be stolen, handed over, or even used by any other person besides the carrier of that key.§

"It's a rule made to make the story easier to understand. The Purple Speech has the same powers as the Red Truth."

"Only the culprit is able to lie with the Purple Speech."

"In this games, all windows have fixed fittings or iron bars, so entering and leaving via windows is impossible. Therefore the mansion can be sealed simply by sealing the front door and backdoor."

"The culprit of the First Twilight definitely killed 6 people. And as soon as you left Natsuhi's room you sealed it. This act of leaving does not include the culprit."

"The seals on Natsuhi's room, the dining hall, or the mansion cannot be broken by any means."

■Chapter 12: Bern's Challenge
"Furthermore, in this game, all people acknowledge the relationship of Shannon and Kanon."

"As a witness I formally declare this now that it ended. I guarantee that with the above information is is possible to point out the culprit."

"That's no good. Didn't Lady Bernkastel already say this? "The culprit of the First Twilight definitely killed 6 people"..."

"The culprit of the First Twilight definitely killed 6 people. The time I got this Red thrown at me was during the reasoning on the Second Twilight."

"Aunt Natsuhi's room was sealed in the instant people left it, right?! But this leaving does not include the culprit... And none of the seals can be broken by any means..."

"The culprit is a group of 3. Breaking it down, this makes one child and their parents. Parent A starts with killing 4 people at the First Twilight, locks the door to the dining hall with the internal lock and pretends to be dead together with Parent B. The Child Culprit lies at the investigation of the death of their parents. After this, Parent A employs the assistance of the Child to convince Krauss and his wife to open their door and proceeds to kill the two, Krauss and Natsuhi. The Parents sets the inside lock and hides, being forced to stay in this room due to the seal on the door. The Child, after bringing Krauss and his wife to open the door, joins up with the survivors in the parlor. At the Fourth Twilight the Child kills Shannon. Parent B leaves the mansion before it is sealed, then proceeds to be responsible for all the murders from the Fifth Twilight onwards. The guesthouse is a locked room, but with the assistance of the Child, it is possible to lock the doors upon entering and leaving."

"Maria cannot be the culprit. If Maria were the culprit, another adult culprit besides aunt Rosa becomes necessary, and another child to lie at the inspection of the death of their parents becomes necessary as well. Because of the rule, that "The definition of culprit is one who murders", this child culprit must also commit a murder, but, since the only victim of a child is Shannon, there cannot be a second child culprit!
Therefore, Maria, on the ground of demanding another child culprit, cannot be the the culprit, and this automatically proves aunt Rosa's innocence as well...!!
George cannot be the culprit! The only victim that could have been killed by a child is Shannon, but, according to Jessica's Purple Speech, George being able to kill Shannon has been denied! Since he cannot perform a murder he cannot become a culprit! And thus, aunt Eva's and uncle Hideyoshi's innocence is proven by there being nobody to falsely verify their death!! And their Purple Speech is verified by this as well!! George and Maria each guaranteed the others alibi. According to Maria, George is able to kill a minor, but the murder of the minors, Jessica and Shannon, was impossible for him! As a result, Maria's expression shows that George would not be able to kill anybody! Due to one side's innocence being proven, the other is automatically given as well, since George's and Maria's utterances can only either be both true or both a lie, and by there only being room for one child culprit, they can never both lie. That is how their innocence can be proven perfectly! Following the above, there is only one family left that could have performed the murders!!"

■Chapter 13: A Late Visitor (1)
"Objection. There is room for a logical construct besides the Rudolph household culprit theory."

"Any Crime outside the Rudolph household culprit theory is impossible...Absolutely impossible...!!"
"No. There is room for a logical construct besides the Rudolph household culprit theory. For example, a There is room for a logical construct besides the George household culprit theory."

"No, it is possible. A culprit is defined as a murderer. And it was never said that murder is limited to those happening towards the characters of this story. In other words, if George committed a murder outside of this case, away from the island, he would be a culprit even without ever murdering on this island and would therefore be able to lie. Therefore the crime is possible for George's family and, of course it is needless to say, also for Maria's family."

■Chapter 15: A Late Visitor (3)
Quite right! It would have been instant logic error for my game if I had dropped the Red that Battler is never the culprit in any game!

So let me draw a conclusion with Red Truth. In Ushiromiya Eva's diary, "The Book of the Single Truth", the truth of Rokkenjima, spanning from October 4th to 5th 1986, is written down.

■Chapter 18: The Scratch Marks of the Black Cats (3)
"The First Game! The Witch who entrusted the umbrella and the letter to the girl!!"
"So...somebody outside of the house of Ushiromiya is hiding on the island..."
"Knocks#1! It is forbidden for the culprit to be outside the characters introduced at the start of the story!!"

"The First Game! The appearance of the witch's letter in Kinzo's study!"
"A...a device to make the letter appear that only the culprit can use..."
"Knocks#4! It is forbidden to employ the use of not yet known drugs or poisons, as well as difficult to understand chemical or mechanical devices!!

"The Golden Butterflies, observed by a large number of people."
"Ungh...The culprit used the scales of a butterfly species that lives only on Rokkenjima to commit the murde..."
"Sorry. That was already denied in the Third Game. No life-form besides humans has any connection to this game. And since we're at it, Van Dine#1. It is forbidden to have a case where not all clues have been gathered."

"There's nothing like the Golden Butterflies!! It was a simple hallucination or maybe a misrecognition! But anyway, it has no connection to the culprit or reasoning at aaaaaall!!"
"How disappointing. Van Dine#16. There must not be any depictions beyond those that are important to the story."

"The First Game's Chain-Locked-Room! The Second Game, The Chapel Locked-Room-Murder! The Second Game, The Locked Room Murder in Natsuhi's Room!"
"The culprit entered and left the locked rooms via a secret passa..."
"An existing passage, used during the crime, was covered up with something like welding after use, and therefore couldn't be found when the crime scene was search..."
"Knox#3: The existence of secret passages is forbidden! Knox#8: A solution with not presented clues is forbidden!"

"The chapel in the Second Game was never locked in the first place! This is possible by the people who discovered the first twilight being accomplices who agreed on the same story of "The chapel was a locked room." In the First Game's locked room as well, they cut the chain and joined their stories about the chain lock being set!! Natsuhi's room is also just an illusionary locked room! Just a story the accomplices agreed upooooooon!!"
"Natsuhi's room was a locked room. Battler, who was the detective at that time, verified Natsuhi's room being locked. Knox#7: It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit. With Battler not being an accomplice a joint story cannot come into existence. It is impossible to call all of Miss Beatrice's locked rooms a case of joint stories!"

"The Second Game. If the servants are accomplices it becomes possible to lock Jessica's room and the servant room with a master key. Kanon lived and committed the murders in the servant room!"
"Kanon died together with Jessica in Jessica's room!"

"The Third Game's Linked Locked-Room! The culprit was among the people who discovered the first twilight, they produced the key used on the last locked room by pretending to take it out of the pocket of a corpse when they discovered it!"
"All keys in connection to the linked locked room have been sealed inside the linked locked rooms! The people discovering the corpses carry no keys connected to the locked rooms with them beyond the ones that were recovered when the corpses were discovered!!"
"Then the linked locked room is a fabricated story! The people discovering them found the 6 playing dead and killed them..."
"The people discovering the first twilight participated neither in the murders nor in the construction of the linked locked room!"

"The Third Game's Murder of Nanjo! The culprit was somebody among the victims who were killed before Nanjo who played dead and then killed Nanjo!"
"! Before the killing of Nanjo, Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, George, Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon have died!"

"Well then a culprit X who killed somebody among them before the whole incident and took their identity exists..."
"Knox#1! It is forbidden for the culprit to be outside the characters introduced at the start of the story!!"
"It's a shame, isn't it?! The answer is written clear as day in the First Game."

"The Fourth Game! An end where not even accomplices but several culprits all killed each other..."
"Van Dine#12: It is forbidden for there to be multiple true culprits."

"Beatrice's game is all about staged murders! Nobody dies at all...!! This is possible if the people pretending to be victims lock the locked rooms from the inside!"
"Van Dine#7: It is forbidden for a case to have no corpse."

■Chapter 19: The Scratch Marks of the Black Cats (4)
"This game is already not for Beato's sake anymore. It's the final game that I bestow upon Ange..."

"You were killed in a perfect locked room. Entry or leaving by windows, doors, or any method that would resemble movement to or from the outside is impossible!!"

"In the duel during the Sixth Game you made a declaration of the number of people in Red."
"There are 17."

"What about Kanon?! By what method did he escape from the guesthouse?! He switched places with you by entering the room and then vanished from the closet through magic?! Are you kidding me?! People cannot vanish by magic. There "existed" another human in the closet who was not Kanon!! That is the rescuers true form."

"The name Kanon can only be carried by the person himself! The rescuer is Kanon!"

"The rescuer was not Kanon when he escaped from the guesthouse."
"In other words, a certain person from the other room escaped trough the window, then took the name Kanon and entered the guestroom, switching places with you. And, after hiding in the closet, they dropped the name Kanon and returned to their former self. All names can only be carried by the carriers themselves, but if that "somebody" is also Kanon himself there is no problem at all."

■Chapter 20: Offense and Defense in the Chapel (1)
"You were the detective till the end of the Fourth Game. And furthermore you were never able to observe X and Kanon at the same time. On this island where, by Kinzo's death, 17 people, even when including Furudo Erika, have been declared to exist, the piece Battler of the Fifth Game counted an 18th who isn't supposed to be there and set this as everybody being gathered. Isn't that just weird?!"

"Ushiromiya Battler is not the culprit in any of the games."

"In the Fifth Game Piece Battler was an accomplice!! Battler up until then was the detective and therefore couldn't be culprit or accomplice. But that is different from the fifth game onwards. You are on the side of the culprit!! That is why you recognize X and Kano at the same time, who can't be seen simultaneously by the detective, and why you could also falsely declare living people to be dead! You took actions that benefited the culprit!!"

"Besides you there are a lot of people that appear to be accomplices as well! The Fifth Game is them being used by the true culprit in a game of revenge against Natsuhi!"

"It happened on October 5th at 0'o clock in the Fifth Game! The culprit appeared in the dining hall and carried out a meeting on the "Fake Murder to Make Natsuhi Confess to Hiding Kinzo's Death" plan with the accomplices! The present adults were all having monetary problems, and with a confession from Natsuhi they could extort the main branch of the family, or even force them out of the battle over the inheritance. It is unknown when that story was proposed to them, but since it was a fake murder on the surface it was easy to get the accomplices under control."

"The call from the one calling themselves the man from 19 years ago was done by employing Battler, who was taking part in it on the side of the true culprit, to follow a script that had been prepared in advance, right?! How did it feel to make this threat call to Natsuhi while being watched over by the culprit and the accomplices?! Were you reluctant?! Was it fun?! It doesn't really matter. You pretended to be somebody else and threatened Natsuhi."

"The autumn card?! This doesn't even become a problem when you prepare 4 cards in advance and then lead Natsuhi to the right card depending on her answer."

"She only told XX that she loved autumn."

"Of course it is just as well if X, who had heard the answer directly from Natsuhi, prepared just the autumn card. No matter what method, since Natsuhi always locked her door, a master key is required to put the cards. And since X owns a master key there is no problem at all, is there?! If she knew that she had been screwed over by her trusted servants, what a shock would it be for Natsuhi, right?!"

"Then the knock and the letter in the corridor which I fought with all my might! That was actually just a story along the lines of, "let's say that there was a knock and then a letter was found placed in the corridor," cooked up by the true culprit who came to the dining hall, wasn't it?!"

"Yes, it was the story of the witch which the true culprit loved so much!! Along that story, you first made 6 people pretend to fall victim to the staged murder of the first twilight! The role of the victims fell to George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, Krauss, and Genji. You convinced the people who were not accomplices to play along by claiming that this was a plan to play a trick on Furudo Erika. The cousins in their room were either informed by Rosa or by phone from the dining hall. And while I was in the lobby till 3 in the morning, the cousins prepared the room according to the scenario given to them and then went to bed. And on the morning of the 5th, Battler woke up according to the time they had discussed and pretended to discover the incident."

"That you saw the people playing dead as corpses was the witch illusion special move of our Mr. Culprit! A jointly concocted story! There were actually a lot of accomplices!! I fell right into your trap by concentrating my listening in on the wall on after the preparations had been finished, and not doing a decent autopsy on the next morning."

"The culprit made him cooperate in the fake murder and then Krauss was killed after he called Natsuhi on the phone. After this I searched the mansion but I couldn't find them, and I was also told that the 6 corpses were never moved after death even once. The most likely place to hide the 5 people and Krauss' corpse and do a phone call as well, would be the room where the gold is stored. Or maybe around the area of the underground passage to Kuwadorian. But since it would have been problematic if they got the idea of moving around, he probably got rid of them as soon as there was an opportunity."

"Last, a button from Natsuhi's clothes was throw into the closet she was ordered to hide in, so that while advancing the fake murder scenario, they would only have to wait for me to get tricked and suspect Natsuhi..."

■Chapter 21: Offense and Defense in the Chapel (2)
"There is a chance for the murderer who killed "me" to lurk in the room after he constructed a locked room by setting the internal lock! There is also the chance of leaving "me" in the room after dealing a fatal wound and then locking the room from the outside in a way that it was a locked room at the time "I" died! There is also the chance of a fatal trap in this room that deals the killing blow after "I" set the internal lock! There is also the chance that "I" ended up committing suicide after the locked room was constructed because of pressure from the murderer on the outside!"

"I will deny all your Blue Wedges with Red Truth. None of the Blue Truths you displayed are able to rip through my locked room barrier!!"

"There is a chance of being killed by poison gas from outside the room! There is the chance of "me" dying after the construction of the locked room the from a delayed effect poison that I ingested before! There is a chance of being shot, stabbed, or strangled through a hole that no human could pass through! There is also the chance of being murdered by an animal, insect, or biological weapon that was inserted through that hole!"

"I refute all those Blues."

"It's useless. You cannot break out of this locked room! This locked room is perfect. "You" will be killed by "me" in this locked room!"

"This is a perfect locked room! This is why "I" cannot exit, but "you" also cannot touch me from the outside! But "you" locked "me" into this locked room! That means that the only trick by which "you" could have killed "me" is this...!! "You" locked "me" into a locked room and let me starve...! If you locked me in with this intention, this becomes a proper "locked room murder in which you killed me"!"

"In the Fifth Game, Battler was not the caller of the call made to Natsuhi on the morning of the 5th. There was definitely a threat call. But the caller in this case was not Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Jessica, George, Battler, Maria, Nanjo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, or Gohda, nobody called being named one of these names. Of course, it was also not Furudo Erika!"

"The phone call on the morning of the 5th was not done by anyone calling themselves one of these 18 names, not, not at that time, and of course also not me, Erika, but the human culprit!! That is the true culprit, pretending to work as the witch, using the several names trick! And in this game, there exists only one body who is set as being able to carry several HUMAN names on this island. And that person's name is..."

■Chapter 22: Hachijo Tohya
"The one to break the seal on the Book of the Single Truth and the first one to read it is you, Ange."

■Chapter 24: The Single Truth
"No, I guarantee it. The truth is written down in this diary."

"This is all truth."

"XX is the culprit!!"
"XX and XXX killed XX! XX and XX and XX and XXX!!" (the number of X's could imply the number of Kanji in the name XX and XXX becoming 霧江 and 留弗夫)
"The truth doesn't change, no matter if you accept it or not!!"
"Because this is the Single Truth guaranteed by the RED TRUUUUUUUUTH!!"

"Ushiromiya Ange certainly dies in 1998."

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Let her be a woman who knows how a gun work... which is much better than a woman who suddently get lucky and not only is not shoot but also learn to recharge and to use the gun to kill the two experts in guns with no problems and not even a serious scratch.

Well, she got Rudolph by surprise more or less and with Kyrie, there's a strong case to make that her gun was either broken or out of ammunition...or maybe she didn't even want to win the duel. Also, it was necessary to have the confirmation that the guns are hard to handle, since this is something that was never much brought up in the forgeries.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

"So Kinzo had this big stack of explosives, which he rigged to blow on demand for some reason. Kyrie somehow learnt about this stack of explosives at some point and set them off. Here are some message bottles we found, they appear to the the confessions of someone else."

I also imagined something along these lines. Sure, they could have used all this circumstancial evidence to build a case, but it's really questionable how far that would have gone. Sure, with all three of them surviving there would have been a stronger case, since the family disputes were apparently mass media knowledge...still, this would all be based on assumptions.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Eva could just scratch her face or something to hide that.

Well, I'm no doctor and I don't know how much examination the Japanese police would have performed back then so I might be wrong but I'm not sure it would be that easy. But let's pretend it work.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I've been thinking about it, and I think that actually being the sole survivor of the Rokkenjima incident, even with your family also surviving, really wouldn't get you into much legal trouble. It's not just that you couldn't get a guilty verdict due to lack of evidence. It's that you probably wouldn't even be able to form a coherent case due to lack of information.

Challenge: imagine Kyrie, Rudolf and Battler are the sole survivors of the incident. Can you form a remotely plausible case against them using only the information that an R-Prime prosecutor would have? As far as I can tell it would have to be something along the lines of "So Kinzo had this big stack of explosives, which he rigged to blow on demand for some reason. Kyrie somehow learnt about this stack of explosives at some point and set them off. Here are some message bottles we found, they appear to the the confessions of someone else."

The really tricky problem is not if I can manage not to be persecuted (we know they can as no case was held against Eva) but if they would blindly trust Sayo over all she said, the money and the bomb.
Expecially the bomb. The mechanism is old. Even if the explosives are still functioning and we believe she successfully knew how much of them to use on the shrine or they were connected to it for some reason... can we be sure the ones that should blast the island will work and will be as powerful as said? The only way to check if the mechanism work is to try it out and they've to wait till the following midnight. If nothing happens when the ship will come to get them all the proofs pointing to them will be still intact.
Sure, they might manage to leave claiming the others wanted to stay some more time on the island, grab the money, if there's some to grab and Sayo didn't make it up and... live in hiding for the rest of their lives.

If there's the money and they manage to grab it in time.

It can be worse. What if the explosive isn't as much as they think but just enough to attract the attention and not to blast the whole house? The police will come to investigate while they're still on the island.

No, the safest way once Krauss is shoot would have been to hand Eva to the police like Rosa said or otherwise hid Krauss and Natsuhi's murder. Or even say that Krauss and Natsuhi wanted to kill them all and that Eva had to act in self defence so maybe not even Eva would be prosecuted. They can show how Krauss hid Kinzo's death and use his money, they can speculate how Krauss might have killed Kinzo and planned to do the same with them and can force Sayo to use her connection to convert the gold.

Really, I'll understand if the plan of blasting the island were to allow them to keep all the money and the gold but as the plan includes destroying the gold when it could be saved... I don't know, to me it seems poor planning done for the sake of killing a lot of people.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Here you go btw:

Spoiler for EP8 Manga Red Truth:

■Chapter 1: Towards Rokkenjima
At the beginning of every game Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead.

■Chapter 2: 6 Year Old Ange
Ushiromiya Kinzo dies before the family conference of 1985. He cannot hold a Halloween party in 1986!!

■Chapter 5: Restoration Ceremony
As the one who constructed this game, I can declare that the relatives passed their time getting along well.

■Chapter 11: Bern Sets Her Question
"I will speak in Red. There exists no method to lock or unlock any door without a master key from the outside. Of course, from the inside locking and unlocking via the internal lock is possible."

"On this gameboard there exist no keys beside the master keys."

"What is the number of master keys?"
"There are 5. Each servant possesses one key each. Right now Genji's key has already been destroyed, therefore only 4 remain. Furthermore, the master key is always fastened to their bodies, the keys cannot be stolen, handed over, or even used by any other person besides the carrier of that key.§

"It's a rule made to make the story easier to understand. The Purple Speech has the same powers as the Red Truth."

"Only the culprit is able to lie with the Purple Speech."

"In this games, all windows have fixed fittings or iron bars, so entering and leaving via windows is impossible. Therefore the mansion can be sealed simply by sealing the front door and backdoor."

"The culprit of the First Twilight definitely killed 6 people. And as soon as you left Natsuhi's room you sealed it. This act of leaving does not include the culprit."

"The seals on Natsuhi's room, the dining hall, or the mansion cannot be broken by any means."

■Chapter 12: Bern's Challenge
"Furthermore, in this game, all people acknowledge the relationship of Shannon and Kanon."

"As a witness I formally declare this now that it ended. I guarantee that with the above information is is possible to point out the culprit."

"That's no good. Didn't Lady Bernkastel already say this? "The culprit of the First Twilight definitely killed 6 people"..."

"The culprit of the First Twilight definitely killed 6 people. The time I got this Red thrown at me was during the reasoning on the Second Twilight."

"Aunt Natsuhi's room was sealed in the instant people left it, right?! But this leaving does not include the culprit... And none of the seals can be broken by any means..."

"The culprit is a group of 3. Breaking it down, this makes one child and their parents. Parent A starts with killing 4 people at the First Twilight, locks the door to the dining hall with the internal lock and pretends to be dead together with Parent B. The Child Culprit lies at the investigation of the death of their parents. After this, Parent A employs the assistance of the Child to convince Krauss and his wife to open their door and proceeds to kill the two, Krauss and Natsuhi. The Parents sets the inside lock and hides, being forced to stay in this room due to the seal on the door. The Child, after bringing Krauss and his wife to open the door, joins up with the survivors in the parlor. At the Fourth Twilight the Child kills Shannon. Parent B leaves the mansion before it is sealed, then proceeds to be responsible for all the murders from the Fifth Twilight onwards. The guesthouse is a locked room, but with the assistance of the Child, it is possible to lock the doors upon entering and leaving."

"Maria cannot be the culprit. If Maria were the culprit, another adult culprit besides aunt Rosa becomes necessary, and another child to lie at the inspection of the death of their parents becomes necessary as well. Because of the rule, that "The definition of culprit is one who murders", this child culprit must also commit a murder, but, since the only victim of a child is Shannon, there cannot be a second child culprit!
Therefore, Maria, on the ground of demanding another child culprit, cannot be the the culprit, and this automatically proves aunt Rosa's innocence as well...!!
George cannot be the culprit! The only victim that could have been killed by a child is Shannon, but, according to Jessica's Purple Speech, George being able to kill Shannon has been denied! Since he cannot perform a murder he cannot become a culprit! And thus, aunt Eva's and uncle Hideyoshi's innocence is proven by there being nobody to falsely verify their death!! And their Purple Speech is verified by this as well!! George and Maria each guaranteed the others alibi. According to Maria, George is able to kill a minor, but the murder of the minors, Jessica and Shannon, was impossible for him! As a result, Maria's expression shows that George would not be able to kill anybody! Due to one side's innocence being proven, the other is automatically given as well, since George's and Maria's utterances can only either be both true or both a lie, and by there only being room for one child culprit, they can never both lie. That is how their innocence can be proven perfectly! Following the above, there is only one family left that could have performed the murders!!"

■Chapter 13: A Late Visitor (1)
"Objection. There is room for a logical construct besides the Rudolph household culprit theory."

"Any Crime outside the Rudolph household culprit theory is impossible...Absolutely impossible...!!"
"No. There is room for a logical construct besides the Rudolph household culprit theory. For example, a There is room for a logical construct besides the George household culprit theory."

"No, it is possible. A culprit is defined as a murderer. And it was never said that murder is limited to those happening towards the characters of this story. In other words, if George committed a murder outside of this case, away from the island, he would be a culprit even without ever murdering on this island and would therefore be able to lie. Therefore the crime is possible for George's family and, of course it is needless to say, also for Maria's family."

■Chapter 15: A Late Visitor (3)
Quite right! It would have been instant logic error for my game if I had dropped the Red that Battler is never the culprit in any game!

So let me draw a conclusion with Red Truth. In Ushiromiya Eva's diary, "The Book of the Single Truth", the truth of Rokkenjima, spanning from October 4th to 5th 1986, is written down.

■Chapter 18: The Scratch Marks of the Black Cats (3)
"The First Game! The Witch who entrusted the umbrella and the letter to the girl!!"
"So...somebody outside of the house of Ushiromiya is hiding on the island..."
"Knocks#1! It is forbidden for the culprit to be outside the characters introduced at the start of the story!!"

"The First Game! The appearance of the witch's letter in Kinzo's study!"
"A...a device to make the letter appear that only the culprit can use..."
"Knocks#4! It is forbidden to employ the use of not yet known drugs or poisons, as well as difficult to understand chemical or mechanical devices!!

"The Golden Butterflies, observed by a large number of people."
"Ungh...The culprit used the scales of a butterfly species that lives only on Rokkenjima to commit the murde..."
"Sorry. That was already denied in the Third Game. No life-form besides humans has any connection to this game. And since we're at it, Van Dine#1. It is forbidden to have a case where not all clues have been gathered."

"There's nothing like the Golden Butterflies!! It was a simple hallucination or maybe a misrecognition! But anyway, it has no connection to the culprit or reasoning at aaaaaall!!"
"How disappointing. Van Dine#16. There must not be any depictions beyond those that are important to the story."

"The First Game's Chain-Locked-Room! The Second Game, The Chapel Locked-Room-Murder! The Second Game, The Locked Room Murder in Natsuhi's Room!"
"The culprit entered and left the locked rooms via a secret passa..."
"An existing passage, used during the crime, was covered up with something like welding after use, and therefore couldn't be found when the crime scene was search..."
"Knox#3: The existence of secret passages is forbidden! Knox#8: A solution with not presented clues is forbidden!"

"The chapel in the Second Game was never locked in the first place! This is possible by the people who discovered the first twilight being accomplices who agreed on the same story of "The chapel was a locked room." In the First Game's locked room as well, they cut the chain and joined their stories about the chain lock being set!! Natsuhi's room is also just an illusionary locked room! Just a story the accomplices agreed upooooooon!!"
"Natsuhi's room was a locked room. Battler, who was the detective at that time, verified Natsuhi's room being locked. Knox#7: It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit. With Battler not being an accomplice a joint story cannot come into existence. It is impossible to call all of Miss Beatrice's locked rooms a case of joint stories!"

"The Second Game. If the servants are accomplices it becomes possible to lock Jessica's room and the servant room with a master key. Kanon lived and committed the murders in the servant room!"
"Kanon died together with Jessica in Jessica's room!"

"The Third Game's Linked Locked-Room! The culprit was among the people who discovered the first twilight, they produced the key used on the last locked room by pretending to take it out of the pocket of a corpse when they discovered it!"
"All keys in connection to the linked locked room have been sealed inside the linked locked rooms! The people discovering the corpses carry no keys connected to the locked rooms with them beyond the ones that were recovered when the corpses were discovered!!"
"Then the linked locked room is a fabricated story! The people discovering them found the 6 playing dead and killed them..."
"The people discovering the first twilight participated neither in the murders nor in the construction of the linked locked room!"

"The Third Game's Murder of Nanjo! The culprit was somebody among the victims who were killed before Nanjo who played dead and then killed Nanjo!"
"! Before the killing of Nanjo, Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, George, Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon have died!"

"Well then a culprit X who killed somebody among them before the whole incident and took their identity exists..."
"Knox#1! It is forbidden for the culprit to be outside the characters introduced at the start of the story!!"
"It's a shame, isn't it?! The answer is written clear as day in the First Game."

"The Fourth Game! An end where not even accomplices but several culprits all killed each other..."
"Van Dine#12: It is forbidden for there to be multiple true culprits."

"Beatrice's game is all about staged murders! Nobody dies at all...!! This is possible if the people pretending to be victims lock the locked rooms from the inside!"
"Van Dine#7: It is forbidden for a case to have no corpse."

■Chapter 19: The Scratch Marks of the Black Cats (4)
"This game is already not for Beato's sake anymore. It's the final game that I bestow upon Ange..."

"You were killed in a perfect locked room. Entry or leaving by windows, doors, or any method that would resemble movement to or from the outside is impossible!!"

"In the duel during the Sixth Game you made a declaration of the number of people in Red."
"There are 17."

"What about Kanon?! By what method did he escape from the guesthouse?! He switched places with you by entering the room and then vanished from the closet through magic?! Are you kidding me?! People cannot vanish by magic. There "existed" another human in the closet who was not Kanon!! That is the rescuers true form."

"The name Kanon can only be carried by the person himself! The rescuer is Kanon!"

"The rescuer was not Kanon when he escaped from the guesthouse."
"In other words, a certain person from the other room escaped trough the window, then took the name Kanon and entered the guestroom, switching places with you. And, after hiding in the closet, they dropped the name Kanon and returned to their former self. All names can only be carried by the carriers themselves, but if that "somebody" is also Kanon himself there is no problem at all."

■Chapter 20: Offense and Defense in the Chapel (1)
"You were the detective till the end of the Fourth Game. And furthermore you were never able to observe X and Kanon at the same time. On this island where, by Kinzo's death, 17 people, even when including Furudo Erika, have been declared to exist, the piece Battler of the Fifth Game counted an 18th who isn't supposed to be there and set this as everybody being gathered. Isn't that just weird?!"

"Ushiromiya Battler is not the culprit in any of the games."

"In the Fifth Game Piece Battler was an accomplice!! Battler up until then was the detective and therefore couldn't be culprit or accomplice. But that is different from the fifth game onwards. You are on the side of the culprit!! That is why you recognize X and Kano at the same time, who can't be seen simultaneously by the detective, and why you could also falsely declare living people to be dead! You took actions that benefited the culprit!!"

"Besides you there are a lot of people that appear to be accomplices as well! The Fifth Game is them being used by the true culprit in a game of revenge against Natsuhi!"

"It happened on October 5th at 0'o clock in the Fifth Game! The culprit appeared in the dining hall and carried out a meeting on the "Fake Murder to Make Natsuhi Confess to Hiding Kinzo's Death" plan with the accomplices! The present adults were all having monetary problems, and with a confession from Natsuhi they could extort the main branch of the family, or even force them out of the battle over the inheritance. It is unknown when that story was proposed to them, but since it was a fake murder on the surface it was easy to get the accomplices under control."

"The call from the one calling themselves the man from 19 years ago was done by employing Battler, who was taking part in it on the side of the true culprit, to follow a script that had been prepared in advance, right?! How did it feel to make this threat call to Natsuhi while being watched over by the culprit and the accomplices?! Were you reluctant?! Was it fun?! It doesn't really matter. You pretended to be somebody else and threatened Natsuhi."

"The autumn card?! This doesn't even become a problem when you prepare 4 cards in advance and then lead Natsuhi to the right card depending on her answer."

"She only told XX that she loved autumn."

"Of course it is just as well if X, who had heard the answer directly from Natsuhi, prepared just the autumn card. No matter what method, since Natsuhi always locked her door, a master key is required to put the cards. And since X owns a master key there is no problem at all, is there?! If she knew that she had been screwed over by her trusted servants, what a shock would it be for Natsuhi, right?!"

"Then the knock and the letter in the corridor which I fought with all my might! That was actually just a story along the lines of, "let's say that there was a knock and then a letter was found placed in the corridor," cooked up by the true culprit who came to the dining hall, wasn't it?!"

"Yes, it was the story of the witch which the true culprit loved so much!! Along that story, you first made 6 people pretend to fall victim to the staged murder of the first twilight! The role of the victims fell to George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, Krauss, and Genji. You convinced the people who were not accomplices to play along by claiming that this was a plan to play a trick on Furudo Erika. The cousins in their room were either informed by Rosa or by phone from the dining hall. And while I was in the lobby till 3 in the morning, the cousins prepared the room according to the scenario given to them and then went to bed. And on the morning of the 5th, Battler woke up according to the time they had discussed and pretended to discover the incident."

"That you saw the people playing dead as corpses was the witch illusion special move of our Mr. Culprit! A jointly concocted story! There were actually a lot of accomplices!! I fell right into your trap by concentrating my listening in on the wall on after the preparations had been finished, and not doing a decent autopsy on the next morning."

"The culprit made him cooperate in the fake murder and then Krauss was killed after he called Natsuhi on the phone. After this I searched the mansion but I couldn't find them, and I was also told that the 6 corpses were never moved after death even once. The most likely place to hide the 5 people and Krauss' corpse and do a phone call as well, would be the room where the gold is stored. Or maybe around the area of the underground passage to Kuwadorian. But since it would have been problematic if they got the idea of moving around, he probably got rid of them as soon as there was an opportunity."

"Last, a button from Natsuhi's clothes was throw into the closet she was ordered to hide in, so that while advancing the fake murder scenario, they would only have to wait for me to get tricked and suspect Natsuhi..."

■Chapter 21: Offense and Defense in the Chapel (2)
"There is a chance for the murderer who killed "me" to lurk in the room after he constructed a locked room by setting the internal lock! There is also the chance of leaving "me" in the room after dealing a fatal wound and then locking the room from the outside in a way that it was a locked room at the time "I" died! There is also the chance of a fatal trap in this room that deals the killing blow after "I" set the internal lock! There is also the chance that "I" ended up committing suicide after the locked room was constructed because of pressure from the murderer on the outside!"

"I will deny all your Blue Wedges with Red Truth. None of the Blue Truths you displayed are able to rip through my locked room barrier!!"

"There is a chance of being killed by poison gas from outside the room! There is the chance of "me" dying after the construction of the locked room the from a delayed effect poison that I ingested before! There is a chance of being shot, stabbed, or strangled through a hole that no human could pass through! There is also the chance of being murdered by an animal, insect, or biological weapon that was inserted through that hole!"

"I refute all those Blues."

"It's useless. You cannot break out of this locked room! This locked room is perfect. "You" will be killed by "me" in this locked room!"

"This is a perfect locked room! This is why "I" cannot exit, but "you" also cannot touch me from the outside! But "you" locked "me" into this locked room! That means that the only trick by which "you" could have killed "me" is this...!! "You" locked "me" into a locked room and let me starve...! If you locked me in with this intention, this becomes a proper "locked room murder in which you killed me"!"

"In the Fifth Game, Battler was not the caller of the call made to Natsuhi on the morning of the 5th. There was definitely a threat call. But the caller in this case was not Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Jessica, George, Battler, Maria, Nanjo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, or Gohda, nobody called being named one of these names. Of course, it was also not Furudo Erika!"

"The phone call on the morning of the 5th was not done by anyone calling themselves one of these 18 names, not, not at that time, and of course also not me, Erika, but the human culprit!! That is the true culprit, pretending to work as the witch, using the several names trick! And in this game, there exists only one body who is set as being able to carry several HUMAN names on this island. And that person's name is..."

■Chapter 22: Hachijo Tohya
"The one to break the seal on the Book of the Single Truth and the first one to read it is you, Ange."

■Chapter 24: The Single Truth
"No, I guarantee it. The truth is written down in this diary."

"This is all truth."

"XX is the culprit!!"
"XX and XXX killed XX! XX and XX and XX and XXX!!" (the number of X's could imply the number of Kanji in the name XX and XXX becoming 霧江 and 留弗夫)
"The truth doesn't change, no matter if you accept it or not!!"
"Because this is the Single Truth guaranteed by the RED TRUUUUUUUUTH!!"

"Ushiromiya Ange certainly dies in 1998."

Did I already say you're my hero? Thank you so much!
LOL, Erika saw through the whole story at the end, didn't she? I bet she knows who's the culprit though it's interesting she didn't say its name.

And I still find a little annoying the culprits' names were turned into XXX in the manga also. Since it's obvious who they supposedly are those XXX placed there seem almost to imply the solution isn't the most obvious one...
It was fine in the visual novel in which we didn't see the diary nor it was directly compared to teh Teaparty but here...

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, she got Rudolph by surprise more or less and with Kyrie, there's a strong case to make that her gun was either broken or out of ammunition...or maybe she didn't even want to win the duel. Also, it was necessary to have the confirmation that the guns are hard to handle, since this is something that was never much brought up in the forgeries.

Well, Rudolf managed to fire but Eva's luck ensured he had the gun whose aim is off while she got a perfect score. Either she was really close (it shouldn't be the case since the bullet had the time to curve enough to land at her feet) ot it's really easy to aim and shoot with those guns.

Kyrie might have wanted to die... though she might have also wanted to check if Rudolf was really dead first since Eva wasn't.

I'm not really sure why we needed confirmation the guns are hard to handle as they get only used by the culprit, who has no problems with them, by Eva to shoot Battler and here again no problems and possibly by Rudolf and Kyrie who know how to use them just fine.

Natsuhi shoot once but she didn't realize she had a blank and Rosa didn't shoot.

Oh, Battler too did shoot just fine in Ep 1 before the bomb exploded but it's said Battler likes shooting games and might have also learnt to shoot by Rudolf.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I also imagined something along these lines. Sure, they could have used all this circumstancial evidence to build a case, but it's really questionable how far that would have gone. Sure, with all three of them surviving there would have been a stronger case, since the family disputes were apparently mass media knowledge...still, this would all be based on assumptions.

Yes, if they destroy evidence there can't be a case... the problem is more: are they sure they can destroy evidence?

[GuestSpeaker]

In ep 3 Rudolph or Kyrie (I forget which) point out that the guns have a special one-handed RELOAD mechanism which can be quite difficult to use, not that the guns themselves are hard to shoot (hence why Battler could, though from memory he was using Natsuhi's blank gun anyway).

As for Eva, when she saw Natsuhi with the gun in ep 1 she pointed out that Kinzo never let her touch them, while we know he showed it to at least Kanon and maybe the other boys too.

[GuestSpeaker]

Also, interesting admission with the parlour trick in ep 5. So basically it was Battler telling us what Erika saw, not her telling us directly? And that means he could show us a fake number of people while the red claimed that the true number of people on the island really were in the parlour when all that occurred. I guess Erika just ignored the missing servant because she had Natsuhi.

I am not so sure that makes sense, as that was supposedly a rewind being shown to Battler that was staged by Lambda. On the other hand, that was metaBattler and though PieceBattler wasn't the detective in that game, it was still being presented from his POV, so I guess that it is a valid move.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Really, that scene needed to be streamlined better so that it would come out more natual, instead than weird because people seem to choose the oddest path to get a result at which they can arrive in a way simpler way.

I still generally agree with you, but you are probably overestimating how willing the adults are to try to physically force one another. That is, you seem to think that once they grab the guns that there is immediately a huge standoff and they force Krauss to obey them or else they'll shoot, even though they clearly intended to just ARGUE him into submission. When Eva grips her gun and Krauss says "What do you intend to do with that?". he is clearly mocking her, and not afraid she'll shoot him.

You also keep mentioning Rosa, and again I ask, who is she aiming at, exactly? Eva, Yoshi, Rudolf, and Kyrie are on her side, and it's not like Rosa wants to actually hurt anybody. You say that she's "just standing there", but Krauss is already arguing with Eva, Natsuhi is already arguing with Rudolf + Kyrie, there is nobody left for Rosa to argue on her own with. Based on her characterization, and the scene itself, she was most likely just standing behind Eva or Rudolf, agreeing with them, like "Yeah, that's right!", or "Don't mess around with us!" and stuff like that.

I do prefer your own chain of events, though, as it's far less ambiguous.

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Also, interesting admission with the parlour trick in ep 5. So basically it was Battler telling us what Erika saw, not her telling us directly? And that means he could show us a fake number of people while the red claimed that the true number of people on the island really were in the parlour when all that occurred. I guess Erika just ignored the missing servant because she had Natsuhi.

I am not so sure that makes sense, as that was supposedly a rewind being shown to Battler that was staged by Lambda. On the other hand, that was metaBattler and though PieceBattler wasn't the detective in that game, it was still being presented from his POV, so I guess that it is a valid move.

Yeah even if it shows up at an uncontested theory here, it's just ... still dumb.

I mean, it's not like I can entirely deny it, and it's TRUE that Piece!Battler, an accomplice, narrates the first important parlor scene, but ... I mean, it's dumb. Erika relies on her piece for audio / visual information, and she is clearly aware of both Shannon and Kanon existing. Like, she at no point thinks one is missing.

But, she spends nearly an entire day in their company, talks to them, and gathers all the survivors into the parlor a second time for her denouement. I mean, when they discover Hideyoshi's "corpse" there's a moment when Shannon speaks, than Kanon responds to her, and Erika responds to him.

Even if I accept it as the intended solution (and when you try to think about the Episode in reverse, it's somewhat obvious why Ryu didn't just have Shkanon be among of the 7 victims), the intended solution is silly. Shenanigans, I say.

[Leafsnail]

IIRC in that scene Kanon is described as standing behind Gohda. I guess Erika doesn't care about him because she ready found her culprit.

Kyrie's actions are odd if she doesn't know anything, but she was an accomplice. She could easily have checked the bomb earlier.

[GuestSpeaker]

I mean, it's not like I can entirely deny it, and it's TRUE that Piece!Battler, an accomplice, narrates the first important parlor scene

Since Ryu himself later shows Battler seeing Kinzo and uses this to tell us he is lying/falsly narrating that scene it is a valid and genuinely tricky move from that perspective (How he must have laughed at our confusion over that one, "But didn't I already show you how that trick is done?"). What was not necessarily either of those was NOT having Erika care/comment that someone was missing, especially since she called them all to the parlor in the first place. It isn't like he couldn't at least have tried to do some half-twisted crazy logic handwave about why she wouldn't have cared, he loves doing that

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Kealym

I still generally agree with you, but you are probably overestimating how willing the adults are to try to physically force one another. That is, you seem to think that once they grab the guns that there is immediately a huge standoff and they force Krauss to obey them or else they'll shoot, even though they clearly intended to just ARGUE him into submission. When Eva grips her gun and Krauss says "What do you intend to do with that?". he is clearly mocking her, and not afraid she'll shoot him.

The problem is that when you pick up a gun you do it with the intention to use it either to attack or to defend yourself. Of course you might not be able to act upon that intention.
Eva will later point her gun at Rosa, but won't be able to push the trigger.

Krauss moking her might reflect this. He knows his sister might wish to kill him but wouldn't have the gut to push the trigger. The point is he too took a gun instead of trying to stop Eva from getting hers. Either he too considered to push the trigger or wanted to defend from Eva, which means despite his words he considered the treat real.

So we've these 2 people with defensive/offensive intentions who automatically grabbed a gun and then... decide to not use it whatsoever as a mean to scare the other into submission or to get a stalemate but overcome any possible fear they could have of the other who's, after all, holding a gun and... began pushing each other or whatever they're doing? With their left hands as they don't let go of the gun?

And Natsuhi finds them so scary she had to get in between?

All this is possible, of course, but all this isn't... what's the most normal way to handle the situation. As a result the situation doesn't feel impossible but odd as if there's something amiss. It'll be fine if we had a first person narration with Eva as the narrator. She's upset, she doesn't have a full grasp of what's going on so maybe she doesn't even remember well the facts or know them all.

For example Natsuhi might have not jumped at her, she might have been shoved against her by Rosa or Kyrie or Rudolf and... she hadn't even realized as she was focused on Krauss.

Actually I think that was the general idea behind the teaparty, that its plot was the product of reading Eva's diary and possibly Yasu's confession and then making up the missing parts.

So if no one says what Rosa or Hideyoshi are doing because no one paid them attention... they 'disappear'.

Originally Posted by Kealym

You also keep mentioning Rosa, and again I ask, who is she aiming at, exactly? Eva, Yoshi, Rudolf, and Kyrie are on her side, and it's not like Rosa wants to actually hurt anybody. You say that she's "just standing there", but Krauss is already arguing with Eva, Natsuhi is already arguing with Rudolf + Kyrie, there is nobody left for Rosa to argue on her own with. Based on her characterization, and the scene itself, she was most likely just standing behind Eva or Rudolf, agreeing with them, like "Yeah, that's right!", or "Don't mess around with us!" and stuff like that.

Rosa felt the need to take a gun. Either she wanted to defend herself from Krauss (who also has a gun) or wanted to join Eva in threating him with a gun.
The same theoretically go for Kyrie but she might be busy facing Natsuhi so maybe she can't aim at Krauss with Natsuhi on her way. Rosa could though.

She can say: Niisan, there's 2 guns pointed at you. Be reasonable and put down your gun. We don't want to hurt you, we just want you to be cooperative.

So Rosa should be aiming at Krauss, either to defend herself or either to attack him. After all in Ep 2 she did nothing else but wave around the gun she had and now... what is she using that for?

Again, it's possible for her to stand there with the gun and... count sheeps and wolves but that's not what you would expect by someone who got a gun. Again we've a case where action is possible but... odd.

If something odd happens for no reason it becomes just a distracting background noise. And the scene didn't need it.

So it's not as I'm denying the scene as impossible. It's just I'm dissatisfied with it because action takes place in an apparently odd manner for apparently no good reason.

Originally Posted by Kealym

Yeah even if it shows up at an uncontested theory here, it's just ... still dumb.

I mean, it's not like I can entirely deny it, and it's TRUE that Piece!Battler, an accomplice, narrates the first important parlor scene, but ... I mean, it's dumb. Erika relies on her piece for audio / visual information, and she is clearly aware of both Shannon and Kanon existing. Like, she at no point thinks one is missing.

But, she spends nearly an entire day in their company, talks to them, and gathers all the survivors into the parlor a second time for her denouement. I mean, when they discover Hideyoshi's "corpse" there's a moment when Shannon speaks, than Kanon responds to her, and Erika responds to him.

Even if I accept it as the intended solution (and when you try to think about the Episode in reverse, it's somewhat obvious why Ryu didn't just have Shkanon be among of the 7 victims), the intended solution is silly. Shenanigans, I say.

Bah, the only theory I can make up is that both PieceBattler and PieceErika were constructed to be incompetent (Erika a little less than Battler) so that they couldn't solve the case that would have to end up in the darkness that belongs to the witch and their Meta versions ended up relying too much on them, failing to get it (to be fair Battler had been warned in red but he missed the hint taking it as a personal insult).
After all in Ep 5 Erika will not check the people in the rooom as well as the corpses and will deliberately ignore the red stating Kinzo is dead in favour of building up a theory that pleases Bern about Natsuhi being the culprit.
She also won't use her detective authority to check the room in which Natsuhi is hiding and won't grasp immediately how Battler jumped down of the window even if she had seen how the outside looked and once she had it would have been the most obvious deduction. It's her Meta self (who's evidently is more competent) who realizes the way, relying on the info she received and not visual aid.
PieceErika doesn't even ask to see the envelope with which was delivered Kinzo's ring and check if on it there were fingertips, yet she'll search for fingertips in other places.

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Since Ryu himself later shows Battler seeing Kinzo and uses this to tell us he is lying/falsly narrating that scene it is a valid and genuinely tricky move from that perspective (How he must have laughed at our confusion over that one, "But didn't I already show you how that trick is done?"). What was not necessarily either of those was NOT having Erika care/comment that someone was missing, especially since she called them all to the parlor in the first place. It isn't like he couldn't at least have tried to do some half-twisted crazy logic handwave about why she wouldn't have cared, he loves doing that

I also add I would have apprecciated people commenting on how Kanon and Shannon look similar. They have the same face yet no one notices/mentions that despite being related they look at least similar? Not even Erika with her photographic memory?

Had we at least been left in the belief they were related I could have swallowed it as being waved off due to their family ties but Shannon feels the need to want us in Ep 1 they aren't related. Even assuming everyone else is an accomplice and so doesn't say it because they're covering it up and that Battler saw Kanon for a too short of a time there's always still Erika. She should have noticed but... no.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

The problem is that when you pick up a gun you do it with the intention to use it either to attack or to defend yourself. Of course you might not be able to act upon that intention.

Here I have to disagree with you, there are several situations where a gun also has a purely symbolic value, without any intentions to ever use it. Soldiers in most European countries for example are taught to rely on the symbolic power of the gun and the respect it instills in people, so that a conflict doesn't even happen.

This case is slightly similar I'd say. Though the parents don't necessarily have the conscious idea to hurt each other, the mere existence of 4 guns in their direct proximity forces them to grab them.
If they just lie around, everybody could catch them at any point. Despite them, there is also a woman in the room who just said that she brought the guns here with the intention of murdering them. They also do not completely trust the other branch-families, as established throughout the story, and there is a chance of somebody barging in on them (other servants) and grabbing the guns.

Carrying a gun levels the situation more then just having them lie around. In a normal situation, every family having one gun actually lowers the chances of them being used. If you shoot the person without a gun, the gun-carrying spouse would immediately think of avenging their lost partner. If you threaten the person with a gun, you are in a duel-situation in which you could be killed yourself.

[SonozakiUshiromiya]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I also add I would have apprecciated people commenting on how Kanon and Shannon look similar. They have the same face yet no one notices/mentions that despite being related they look at least similar? Not even Erika with her photographic memory?

Had we at least been left in the belief they were related I could have swallowed it as being waved off due to their family ties but Shannon feels the need to want us in Ep 1 they aren't related. Even assuming everyone else is an accomplice and so doesn't say it because they're covering it up and that Battler saw Kanon for a too short of a time there's always still Erika. She should have noticed but... no.

Well, if we start about character's looks, we run into the old "No mention of Jessica when it's pointed out Beatrice is blond". That Shannon and Kanon have similar facial structure really seemed like another meta hint for us readers, ala placeholder theory, if that at all.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by SonozakiUshiromiya

Well, if we start about character's looks, we run into the old "No mention of Jessica when it's pointed out Beatrice is blond". That Shannon and Kanon have similar facial structure really seemed like another meta hint for us readers, ala placeholder theory, if that at all.

The whole Jessica is blond like Beatrice is suspected to be... how to call it, a not realistical color scheme as it's assumed that Jessica actually is dark haired, same as Battler and Ange and Kyrie and Rosa and so on and colour was added purely for... let's call it visual value. Especially considering there's no mention of Jessica being really blond as far as I can remember (there's mention of Erika's hair being blue though so I don't know where this carries us).

But even if Jessica were to be blonde like Beatrice the real Beatrice might be carrying a wig or be also blonde. If blonde is possible then it's likely not a colour that is exclusive to Jessica.
Facial features are a bit more complicate as it gets a lot more uncommon to find 2 unrelated beings with exactly the same face. Unless we go and assume Kanon wears some serious make up in order to make his kin, his nose, his ears, his eyes, his lips, his cheekbones, his forehead different enough from Shannon that seeing him one wouldn't feel compelled to say: dear good, this boy looks like your long lost twin, are you sure you aren't related?

Same hair colour can ring a bell but doesn't produce the same reaction as same face.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Here I have to disagree with you, there are several situations where a gun also has a purely symbolic value, without any intentions to ever use it. Soldiers in most European countries for example are taught to rely on the symbolic power of the gun and the respect it instills in people, so that a conflict doesn't even happen.

While in other cases it can have a symbolic value, this doesn't seem to apply here. We've 4 normal adults all pretty angry with each other. 3 women and a man get the guns while they're arguing. Although they might not consciously think to kill each other, they didn't exactly had pacific intentions.
They want to force each other to accept something so, at best, they took the gun for threatening effect and a person with a gun instil more fear than respect, expecially when he's not a policeman there to protect you but a siblin that wants to force you to let go of something you think you deserve.

Eva and Krauss even got violent in their discussion.

Of course it can be that... let's say Rosa, took the gun with the purpose to defend herself but didn't aimed to use the gun, just to threaten people with it same as she did in Ep 2 (or as Natsuhi did in Ep 1), to discourage them from attacking her as she has a gun and can defend herself with it which makes sense as we're never told Rosa has some fighter technique like Eva or Krauss.

But still, if she wants the gun threat to be effective she has to point it and act as if she's ready to use it, expecially since Krauss already has one gun.

Originally Posted by haguruma

This case is slightly similar I'd say. Though the parents don't necessarily have the conscious idea to hurt each other, the mere existence of 4 guns in their direct proximity forces them to grab them.
If they just lie around, everybody could catch them at any point.

If they fear someone will use them they feel threatened.

Now the adults are split in 2 groups: Krauss and Natsuhi, which have 1 gun, and Eva, Hideyoshi, Rosa, Rudolf and Kyrie, which have three guns.

Now that the opposite group has from 1 to 3 guns they're prone to feel even more threatened, not less.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Despite them, there is also a woman in the room who just said that she brought the guns here with the intention of murdering them.

No one seems to remember about Beatrice who's completely ignored so it's hard to think they took the guns in fear she would get up and grab them.

It seems weird while they were arguing they suddently remembered Beatrice could get up, grab the guns (that she basically handed them) and kill them.

Originally Posted by haguruma

They also do not completely trust the other branch-families, as established throughout the story, and there is a chance of somebody barging in on them (other servants) and grabbing the guns.

They took the guns while in an argument not when they had apparently remembered someone can barge in and threaten them from outside.

The scene should have been constructed differently for me to believe they did it in fear of someone barging inside or Beatrice.

And at the moment, although likely Rosa, Rudolf/Kyrie and Eva/Hideyoshi don't trust each other much, they have a common "enemy", Krauss/Natsuhi.

Once they had brought him down they would probably worry about each other but first there's to get rid of him one way or another (and by getting rid of him I don't mean to kill him, persuasion or coercion in complying with their requests would work just fine as long as Krauss steps down from the role of common enemy).

Originally Posted by haguruma

Carrying a gun levels the situation more then just having them lie around. In a normal situation, every family having one gun actually lowers the chances of them being used. If you shoot the person without a gun, the gun-carrying spouse would immediately think of avenging their lost partner. If you threaten the person with a gun, you are in a duel-situation in which you could be killed yourself.

This if they were to be in a situation of all against all. Actually it's 5 people and 3 guns against 2 people and 1 gun. Krauss and Natsuhi are doomed to lose.
Krauss can't keep under threat of fire all the siblings and protect Natsuhi at the same time.

Also a bit of psycological look in the guys:

Eva is furious. She's probably not the murdering-on-purpose type but she evidently would like to kick Krauss from there to Alaska. She really wants the upper hand so she's likely prone to try and use a gun with a threatening purpose... though maybe she doesn't aim to shoot with it.

Rosa wants only what she deems fair. While she's not the type that would kill she's also the one who likes to have the upper hand and brag about it. A gun gives her power. It would be logical to expect she joins Eva in threatening Krauss with a gun.

Kyrie is the rational one. She should have understood that by shooting Krauss they would have gotten less gold than what planned but maybe things went out of hands before she could do something. Still she could have considered either forcing Krauss to cooperate by using Natsuhi as an hostage or by also joining Eva in threatening Krauss.

Krauss is the one in the worst position as his only ally is Natsuhi, who's weaponless and powerless, while his adversaries have 3 guns. Regardless of why he took one gun now he's in a situation in which he should use it to strenghten his defence. If he goes and try to physically attack Eva, as he's a man and a strong one and also has a gun, Eva or Kyrie or Rosa will feel even more threatened and shoot at him.

Basically the guns generate a stalemate only when they're fairly distributed and no one moves. As they are they should generate more tension and fear.

Said all this: ACCORDING TO RYUKISHI THE ADULTS MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN THE GUNS TO SWAT FLIES FOR ALL WE KNOW AS NO REAL REASON IS GIVEN FOR THEM TO GRAB THE GUNS APART THAT JUST BY BEING THERE THE GUNS HAD TURNED THEIR HEART TO VIOLENCE.

Only, considering how the scene is presented and the fact that it's said their hearts had been turned to violence and how they were arguing and angry and greeding THE FACT THEY TOOK THE GUNS TO ME DOESN'T SEEM TO IMPLY THEY WERE WORRIED BEATRICE OR SOMEONE ELSE WOULD ATTACK THEM OR THAT THEY JUST PLANNED TO REMOVE THE GUNS FOR ANY OTHER SAFETY MEASURE THAT ISN'T DEFENDING THEMSELVES FROM GUN'S THREAT FROM THE OPPOSITE GROUP OR THREATENING IT.

[Leafsnail]

Sameface would definitely produce a reaction if you saw two people side-by-side, but if you only ever saw them apart and they always wore different facial expressions it might not be all that noticable. Some people do have pretty unremarkable faces, and I've seen plays that pull off tricks like this.

Erika probably didn't care much about character appearances due to Knox's 10th. In episode 5 she was also convinced she'd already found her culprit and didn't need to examine anyone else.

[haguruma]

So, I went through EP4 again, with special concentration on Battler's investigation of the island at the very end and I still think that there is still a little bit more in there...at least I severely hope so...

So, to go through it again:

Spoiler for Time Chart:

October 4th
21:48~22:00: The cousins are brought over to the guesthouse by Shannon.
21:50~22:30: The parents start the family conference. Shortly before 22:00 Gohda and Kumasawa come in. At 22:00 Shannon comes in. Directly after her Genji arrives with "Kinzo". Then the first twilight takes place, Gohda and Kumasawa run to the guesthouse.
22:30~22:32: Maria wakes up and the cousins talk with her about her witch stories. Then Gohda and Kumasawa burst in, soaking wet and apparently distraught about something.
22:40~23:00: Kyrie's group in the prison cell, them finding the phone and calling the guesthouse. Gohda answers the phone first and then hands it to Jessica. Krauss speaks with her and tells her to pray when she asks about Natsuhi. The phone call get's interrupted when Kanon announces that Kinzo draws near. The men in the guesthouse gather food and objects usable as weapons, being told by Gohda what has happened. The women are strengthening the barricade in the room, Kumasawa telling Jessica about her mother's death. Battler worries about Maria being completely fine. (All this doesn't appear in the manga, Kinzo arrives right after finding the phone and Jessica is the first to answer the phone)
23:00~23:05: Krauss calls Jessica under order from Kinzo and tells her about the test, as well as to lock Kumasawa and Gohda into the shed and to leave the key with them.
23:05~23:47: Upon return they get another call, this time from Kyrie, George answers, then hands to Battler. They learn where Jessica is to go and Battler thinks he hears desperation from Kyrie's voice. They escort Jessica out and decide to beat their grandfather into submission. When Battler and George come back Maria is on the phone and is apparently ordered to hand the phone to George, Shannon tells him where his test is.
23:47~23:59: Battler gets a call from Jessica, informing him about George's death, her own death and the fact that his opponent is in fact a group of demons and witches, the line goes silent. Shortly after he get's a call from Kyrie, who informs him that she escaped but it is too late, he hears a similar story to Jessica's.
When he despairs Maria responds that, "Didn't Kyrie tell you that you were to believe that it is a witch?!" without ever listening in on the conversation. After that another call comes and Maria answers, then she leaves "for her test near the chapel". Battler takes the receiver and the caller identifies herself as Beatrice in broken English. She tells him to meet her at the entrance of the mansion.
23:59~00:??: Battler heads for the mansion and finds Kumasawa and Gohda, apparently hung themselves in the shed. He also finds George in the rosegarden with a bullet hole in his forehead. At the entrance of the mansion he meets with Beatrice and upon not understanding his task, she leaves him alone.

October 5th
00:??~06:00: After being left by Beatrice, Battler finds the mansion locked and heads to the chapel to look for Maria. He finds it locked to but finds a set of keys with the master-key. He opens the mansion and finds it filled with an unbearable smell. When he enters the dining hall he finds 6 corpses with their heads shot by a shotgun-like weapon, as Gohda described. He cries over his father's corpse, then runs around the mansion screaming for the culprit, finally giving up.
06:00~23:50: Battler decides to use the day to investigate, since he has nothing to lose. He goes to the dining hall first and finds Maria next to her mother's corpse, apparently poisoned and laid out in a peaceful pose.
Next he goes to Jessica's room and finds her dead as well. The door was locked and the phone is off the hook, as if she died while calling him. (Interestingly, in the manga the walls of her room are completely clean, as if she didn't die in this room)
Next he finds Kyrie in one of the old guestrooms on the first floor. She has been shot in the head, a stake wedged into the hole. The phone is off the hook and around the dresser are bullet holes.
Outside of the backdoor he finds Krauss, with his head torn open by a gunshot and a stake stuck into the wound. Close to the well, hidden between the bushes, he finds Nanjo and Shannon, both also with large head-wounds and stakes just hastily thrown next to their bodies.
Upon searching for a weapon to destroy the tool-shed gate, he finds Kinzo's corpse in the furnace.
In the tool-shed he finds Gohda and Kumasawa still hung by their necks, but also with gunshot wounds in their foreheads. He also finds that the ropes are too long/the rafters to low to actually hang themselves from them.
After not finding Kanon he decides to get drunk in the kitchen and then decides to head to the guesthouse to sleep.
23:50~24:00: He passes through the great hall when the clock strikes midnight.

So, there are a few questions that ring weird, even still in the light of current revelations...and could this have been a hint at what Battler might have actually experienced on the island? Or at least at jumbled memory of what Tohya remembers.
Sure, this Episode is still pretty much geared towards a Yasu-culprit solution, or at least solvable by it...but still, something seems off, even more off than in EP3.

At least from Erika's theories in the EP8 manga we know that the most likely place to call from on the island when not wanting to be found is the gold room. And since we can be sure that there is no trapdoor in the dining hall, it is most likely that people just moved there, while Gohda and Kumasawa went over to the children.
Why did Gohda and Kumasawa need to be put into the garden shed, especially with them holding the key?
Why were the children brought out separately and did Jessica and George really fight the opponents we saw or actually each other?
Why did Jessica call Battler if not to lead him on track of the illusion and especially right before Kyrie and THEN Beatrice would call him?

Also, my biggest question is: Why does Kanon die first?
Wouldn't this in the strange connectivity thing imply that Jessica died first as well? Would this be an explanation as to why George was shot?
And why does he only find Maria on the morning of the 5th (at least in the manga)? Was anybody besides George even dead at this point?

The biggest question marks in terms of what the current EP8 solution of Prime gives me are actually not related to Kyrie's or Rudolph's motive, those can be explained by or at least reasoned towards, even though some people might be more ready to accept them then others. It is rather that it gives no to answer to two pressing points that have been brought up in EP3 and 4 actually:

• What happens to Battler?
• How does Eva get the ring of headship?

Kyrie apparently makes no attempt to claim the ring, yet it still ended up on Ange's finger through Eva, so she must have taken it somehow. Not only that, she even appears to know that the ring also connects her to the name of Beatrice.

And that brings me to something else that I noticed while translating the Red and Blue Truths from the EP8 manga. Ushiromiya Eva's diary, The Book of the Single Truth, contains the truth of Rokkenjima from October 4th to 5th. But EP8 tells us that Battler escaped on the early morning of the 6th, Eva was found on the 6th...basically a whole few hours are still up in the air.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

So, I went through EP4 again, with special concentration on Battler's investigation of the island at the very end and I still think that there is still a little bit more in there...at least I severely hope so...

So, to go through it again:

Spoiler for Time Chart:

October 4th
21:48~22:00: The cousins are brought over to the guesthouse by Shannon.
21:50~22:30: The parents start the family conference. Shortly before 22:00 Gohda and Kumasawa come in. At 22:00 Shannon comes in. Directly after her Genji arrives with "Kinzo". Then the first twilight takes place, Gohda and Kumasawa run to the guesthouse.
22:30~22:32: Maria wakes up and the cousins talk with her about her witch stories. Then Gohda and Kumasawa burst in, soaking wet and apparently distraught about something.
22:40~23:00: Kyrie's group in the prison cell, them finding the phone and calling the guesthouse. Gohda answers the phone first and then hands it to Jessica. Krauss speaks with her and tells her to pray when she asks about Natsuhi. The phone call get's interrupted when Kanon announces that Kinzo draws near. The men in the guesthouse gather food and objects usable as weapons, being told by Gohda what has happened. The women are strengthening the barricade in the room, Kumasawa telling Jessica about her mother's death. Battler worries about Maria being completely fine. (All this doesn't appear in the manga, Kinzo arrives right after finding the phone and Jessica is the first to answer the phone)
23:00~23:05: Krauss calls Jessica under order from Kinzo and tells her about the test, as well as to lock Kumasawa and Gohda into the shed and to leave the key with them.
23:05~23:47: Upon return they get another call, this time from Kyrie, George answers, then hands to Battler. They learn where Jessica is to go and Battler thinks he hears desperation from Kyrie's voice. They escort Jessica out and decide to beat their grandfather into submission. When Battler and George come back Maria is on the phone and is apparently ordered to hand the phone to George, Shannon tells him where his test is.
23:47~23:59: Battler gets a call from Jessica, informing him about George's death, her own death and the fact that his opponent is in fact a group of demons and witches, the line goes silent. Shortly after he get's a call from Kyrie, who informs him that she escaped but it is too late, he hears a similar story to Jessica's.
When he despairs Maria responds that, "Didn't Kyrie tell you that you were to believe that it is a witch?!" without ever listening in on the conversation. After that another call comes and Maria answers, then she leaves "for her test near the chapel". Battler takes the receiver and the caller identifies herself as Beatrice in broken English. She tells him to meet her at the entrance of the mansion.
23:59~00:??: Battler heads for the mansion and finds Kumasawa and Gohda, apparently hung themselves in the shed. He also finds George in the rosegarden with a bullet hole in his forehead. At the entrance of the mansion he meets with Beatrice and upon not understanding his task, she leaves him alone.

October 5th
00:??~06:00: After being left by Beatrice, Battler finds the mansion locked and heads to the chapel to look for Maria. He finds it locked to but finds a set of keys with the master-key. He opens the mansion and finds it filled with an unbearable smell. When he enters the dining hall he finds 6 corpses with their heads shot by a shotgun-like weapon, as Gohda described. He cries over his father's corpse, then runs around the mansion screaming for the culprit, finally giving up.
06:00~23:50: Battler decides to use the day to investigate, since he has nothing to lose. He goes to the dining hall first and finds Maria next to her mother's corpse, apparently poisoned and laid out in a peaceful pose.
Next he goes to Jessica's room and finds her dead as well. The door was locked and the phone is off the hook, as if she died while calling him. (Interestingly, in the manga the walls of her room are completely clean, as if she didn't die in this room)
Next he finds Kyrie in one of the old guestrooms on the first floor. She has been shot in the head, a stake wedged into the hole. The phone is off the hook and around the dresser are bullet holes.
Outside of the backdoor he finds Krauss, with his head torn open by a gunshot and a stake stuck into the wound. Close to the well, hidden between the bushes, he finds Nanjo and Shannon, both also with large head-wounds and stakes just hastily thrown next to their bodies.
Upon searching for a weapon to destroy the tool-shed gate, he finds Kinzo's corpse in the furnace.
In the tool-shed he finds Gohda and Kumasawa still hung by their necks, but also with gunshot wounds in their foreheads. He also finds that the ropes are too long/the rafters to low to actually hang themselves from them.
After not finding Kanon he decides to get drunk in the kitchen and then decides to head to the guesthouse to sleep.
23:50~24:00: He passes through the great hall when the clock strikes midnight.

So, there are a few questions that ring weird, even still in the light of current revelations...and could this have been a hint at what Battler might have actually experienced on the island? Or at least at jumbled memory of what Tohya remembers.
Sure, this Episode is still pretty much geared towards a Yasu-culprit solution, or at least solvable by it...but still, something seems off, even more off than in EP3.

At least from Erika's theories in the EP8 manga we know that the most likely place to call from on the island when not wanting to be found is the gold room. And since we can be sure that there is no trapdoor in the dining hall, it is most likely that people just moved there, while Gohda and Kumasawa went over to the children.
Why did Gohda and Kumasawa need to be put into the garden shed, especially with them holding the key?
Why were the children brought out separately and did Jessica and George really fight the opponents we saw or actually each other?
Why did Jessica call Battler if not to lead him on track of the illusion and especially right before Kyrie and THEN Beatrice would call him?

Also, my biggest question is: Why does Kanon die first?
Wouldn't this in the strange connectivity thing imply that Jessica died first as well? Would this be an explanation as to why George was shot?
And why does he only find Maria on the morning of the 5th (at least in the manga)? Was anybody besides George even dead at this point?

The biggest question marks in terms of what the current EP8 solution of Prime gives me are actually not related to Kyrie's or Rudolph's motive, those can be explained by or at least reasoned towards, even though some people might be more ready to accept them then others. It is rather that it gives no to answer to two pressing points that have been brought up in EP3 and 4 actually:

• What happens to Battler?
• How does Eva get the ring of headship?

Kyrie apparently makes no attempt to claim the ring, yet it still ended up on Ange's finger through Eva, so she must have taken it somehow. Not only that, she even appears to know that the ring also connects her to the name of Beatrice.

And that brings me to something else that I noticed while translating the Red and Blue Truths from the EP8 manga. Ushiromiya Eva's diary, The Book of the Single Truth, contains the truth of Rokkenjima from October 4th to 5th. But EP8 tells us that Battler escaped on the early morning of the 6th, Eva was found on the 6th...basically a whole few hours are still up in the air.

Well, if we've to go by Ep 3 Battler had accused Eva of being the culprit (even though he knew she couldn't have possibly killed Nanjo as she was with him) and she ended up in shooting him.
Interesting enough in Ep 5 Eva ends up beating Battler when he tries to stop her from beating Natsuhi, whom they know is innocent.

So it's possible Eva found Battler still alive and planned to keep him as such but then he either equivocated or was in denial for his parents' role in all that mess like Ange, or simply believed after all Eva, by shooting Natsuhi started all this and accused Eva who attacked him.

Maybe she didn't outright shoot him but just kicked him in the stomach (there's a lot of emphasis put on how she's capable to defend herself) hard enough to make him faint while they were escaping. She should have finished him but didn't feel like it as Battler was technically innocent so... she abandoned him there for the bomb to finish the job. Battler wakes up though and escapes... in the wrong direction.

So Eva believes him dead and feel very guilty because while Natsuhi and Krauss were an incident and Kyrie and Rudolf were culprit, Battler was actually innocent and she abandoned him to die on her own will... though she actually doesn't know what happened to him as she hadn't seen him explode.
After all, Eva's diary so far hasn't showed us all that had happened. So it's possible Ange didn't manage to finish reading it and missed the part in which her brother was abandoned by Eva... or even read it and assumed he died but it just wasn't shown to us.

[jjblue1]

Someone can help me refresh my memory?
I was going through Ep 2 and I'm unsure about a solution.
At the end, before Battler had the last argument with Rosa, he found a letter on the table.
I was thinking the trick could be the text mention various time that before leaving the room and upon returning to the room they checked the windows, to make sure they all were close but... happened to forget to lock the door (at lest it's not mentioned they closed it with the key and then had to open it with the key) allowing Shannon to enter, place the letter there and then go kill herself.

However they claim the room is a closed room so... I'm not sure if they're being dumb or if I should just suspect Rosa. After all the letter had to be on the table when she got in so she's obviously lying about not seeing it. And since we know she was bribed by Yasu it can be not only she was bribed in saying there was no letter but also in placing the letter there and then acting that way with Battler.

Suggestion anyone?

Is it an illusion of a closed room or just the illusion of a letter not being there?

[Leafsnail]

I'm pretty sure Rosa placed it, she's clearly an accomplice.

[haguruma]

I'd say it was placed by Maria. She says herself she is the "witch's messenger", so it would be reasonable for her to give out the letters that the witch cannot place herself.

Or it was Rosa and she wanted an excuse to force Battler out, but her reactions make more sense if she is actually confused by the events from a certain point onwards...unless of course she actually still believes that it is all a game.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

I'm going to challenge Erika's "Battler's an Accomplice" Theory(I can't yet think of a way to challenge her Kanon Solution).


Knox's 8th:It's forbidden for the case to be solved without clues. There's never been any foreshadowing in any of the games that Battler's an accomplice

But I can show two theories to exonerate Battler from being an accomplice.

If Battler's the accomplice of the "true culprit" AKA Yasu. He would've had to know the Truth. But it's towards the end of the 5th game that Battler finally recognizes the truth, but he couldn't save Beato. Equally, in Bernkastel's 7th game, it was stated that Battler didn't make it in time. He couldn't attend the funeral.

Battler's Emotions. Whenever Beato committed a murder in the first four games, or when Eva-Beatrice committed her murders in the 3rd game, Battler was extra emotional about the crimes committed. He even went on a pseudo-intellectual tirade about how the sudden loss of someone close to you could be devastating.

Could he really be an accomplice to those crimes, and still have that same philosophical mindset? If Piece Battler wasn't Battler's piece, whose was it? Yasu's? Yasu was clearly there on Rokkenjima Prime in 1986. There was an argument previously that Yasu wishwashed who Battler was with Piece Battler, but I can't imagine a total deconstruction of Battler's philosophy.

At the very least, with my first theory I feel confident enough to say this in Red:

Ushiromiya Battler only understands Yasu on the 2nd day in Rokkenjima Prime

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I'm going to challenge Erika's "Battler's an Accomplice" Theory(I can't yet think of a way to challenge her Kanon Solution).


Knox's 8th:It's forbidden for the case to be solved without clues. There's never been any foreshadowing in any of the games that Battler's an accomplice

But I can show two theories to exonerate Battler from being an accomplice.

If Battler's the accomplice of the "true culprit" AKA Yasu. He would've had to know the Truth. But it's towards the end of the 5th game that Battler finally recognizes the truth, but he couldn't save Beato. Equally, in Bernkastel's 7th game, it was stated that Battler didn't make it in time. He couldn't attend the funeral.

Battler's Emotions. Whenever Beato committed a murder in the first four games, or when Eva-Beatrice committed her murders in the 3rd game, Battler was extra emotional about the crimes committed. He even went on a pseudo-intellectual tirade about how the sudden loss of someone close to you could be devastating.

Could he really be an accomplice to those crimes, and still have that same philosophical mindset? If Piece Battler wasn't Battler's piece, whose was it? Yasu's? Yasu was clearly there on Rokkenjima Prime in 1986. There was an argument previously that Yasu wishwashed who Battler was with Piece Battler, but I can't imagine a total deconstruction of Battler's philosophy.

At the very least, with my first theory I feel confident enough to say this in Red:

Ushiromiya Battler only understands Yasu on the 2nd day in Rokkenjima Prime

The Meta!Battler in EP1-4 could be simply a Meta-Representation of Tohya though, as he struggles with regaining the memories of the incident along with all the headaches. It does not have to be Prime!Battler's mindset

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

The Meta!Battler in EP1-4 could be simply a Meta-Representation of Tohya though, as he struggles with regaining the memories of the incident along with all the headaches. It does not have to be Prime!Battler's mindset

This is generally true, my second theory of Battler=Couldn't be culprit/accomplice due to philosophical inconsistencies is an admittedly weaker theory than the first theory but this is just a back bone in case the first falls apart.

But it generally can't, unless as others have suggested, Erika's Solution rewrites the entire story. But I'm not going to buy that.

Prime Battler only recognized the truth, at best midway through the events in Prime. And if he helped Yasu with anything, it would be to the "clean up" she confessed to, as well as leaving Rokkenjima.

But Prime Battler IMO wasn't an accomplice to the crimes Yasu committed.

And as long as Erika can reinterpret things, I'll do the same for the 5th Game's murders.

Not only weren't any of the victims dead, they weren't even corpses. This is the only logical explanation to the Fifth Game: All of the Victims played dead, and then were moved elsewhere by the Servants(namely Genji, Shannon and Kanon) who all had Master Keys and could pretty much move the 'victims' anywhere while they were still alive.

The only Red Proclamation of their death was through Virgilia and at that, it was in the Meta World. Not necessarily the game board of the 5th game.

Only the Servants could have been "accomplices" of this fake murder prank. Battler had nothing to do with it.(All Battler did, was suggest they play the game to begin with. But that was 5th game only. In Prime, Yasu did it so that Battler would remember)