Taiwan: Is democracy and military the only reasons Taiwan is not a part of China?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by aldw

Ultimately reunification is not the notion of being subject but being part of a greater whole, no more than Texas being part of the US for instance. It is telling the underlying ideological prejudices and presumptions being made about "will of the people" or "sovereignty" is being made without even realizing it. It is hardly a strictly dichotomous situation to begin with.

A part of a greater whole? Not happening if it s done through the threat of force.

If China want to be friends with Taiwan, then the only way to do so is to permit its independence. Then we can be friends. And if China say "no, we rather kill you all instead", then there is no friendship to begin with.

China's claim of Unification is that everything that is in Taiwan is China's. That Taiwanese people have no rights because only the Communist Party have power, and since there is no CCP in Taiwan the Taiwanese don't matter. Everything belong to China. That's not reunification of any sort.

[Ithekro]

Texas joined because it wanted to join. That was almost the point from the start without the US having to fight Mexico (at first) over it. After the annexation, then the US and Mexico went to war over the details of the border and other territories the US was trying to purchase in the West.

The main thing that held up the annexation for ten years was the issues of slavery and the balance of power in the US Congress. The independance of Texas was over slavery to begin with as Mexico outlawed slavery in the years after it managed to draw in Anglo settlers from the US south to Mexico's sparsely inhabited frontier. That hardly has a similar thing with the two Chinas.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

A part of a greater whole? Not happening if it s done through the threat of force.

If China want to be friends with Taiwan, then the only way to do so is to permit its independence. Then we can be friends. And if China say "no, we rather kill you all instead", then there is no friendship to begin with.

China's claim of Unification is that everything that is in Taiwan is China's. That Taiwanese people have no rights because only the Communist Party have power, and since there is no CCP in Taiwan the Taiwanese don't matter. Everything belong to China. That's not reunification of any sort.

Basically, peaceful reunification can only happen if China gets its own mess sorted out..which probably means getting rid of the CCP's dictatorship.

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Taiwan is familiar with indoctrination thank you. Chiang's people did that for generations. I don't understand why you think China would succeed where Chiang failed.

You know what? I would believe you if you think China can make Taiwan hate Japan as much as China does. The Taiwanese people are well trained in smelling bullshit by experience.

I think Esclair is talking about the next gemeration or 2, whose father might be taiwanese and mother mainlander(or vice versa). They won't be as experienced smelling bullshit and might be more prone to indoctrination.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

I think Esclair is talking about the next gemeration or 2, whose father might be taiwanese and mother mainlander(or vice versa). They won't be as experienced smelling bullshit and might be more prone to indoctrination.

Eh, CCP won't even last that long.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Eh, CCP won't even last that long.

As long as we are paying it to be there, it will be.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Esclair

China is currently mounting an 'economic' invasion by tying Taiwan's economy to itself. It has made significant steps towards this goal in the last couple of years. As the economies become more intertwined there would be more cross straight relations between the two people, which would eventually lead to a more friendly atmosphere and open the doors for more connections to be made.

Opening trade =/= economic invasion, otherwise you’re basically saying NAFTA is really a three-way melee between US/Canada/Mexico, and the EU is really just WW3 in disguise.

If this continues 2-3 generations down the line it's possible that anti-China sentiments would be mostly gone as the newer generations would be born into a heavily mixed economy and culture while the older generations will have died of old age.

No, the Pro-China crowds are the older generations, as many literally came FROM China, it’s the younger generations that are more anti-China.

Originally Posted by aldw

Frankly this pan-Green BS is no different than all the Neo-con crap et al in the US, particularly since this notion of "they are not us" is essentially a reinforcement of the Japanese political indoctrination of the Imperial period being presented as "will of the people". Ultimately it doesn't matter what as such subjective notions can will be changed, preferably peacebly but can be by force if necessary.

So self-determination = neocon? FFS, the UK have a stronger claim over the US than PRC have over Taiwan, at least the UK at one point governed the colonies, PRC never had jurisdiction over Taiwan for a single second. Your claim that somehow my own thoughts and beliefs are the result of Imperial Japanese indoctrination is insulting beyond belief.

Sharing cultural/ethnic heritage does not entitle you to annex another nation, or are you saying China should also go around and annex every nation that has an ethnic Chinese population?

As there is some selective editing of posts by the moderators, I'll make this short:

Then maybe it’s time to look at what you wrote and ask yourself why it’s being edited.

Ultimately reunification is not the notion of being subject but being part of a greater whole, no more than Texas being part of the US for instance. It is telling the underlying ideological prejudices and presumptions being made about "will of the people" or "sovereignty" is being made without even realizing it. It is hardly a strictly dichotomous situation to begin with.

Now THAT is some neocon bs. As others have pointed out, Texas DECIDED ON ITS OWN to join the Union, the US certainly did not point hundreds of missiles and threaten to destroy Texas if it doesn’t join (which more than likely would’ve had the Texas give the US the middle finger and stayed part of Mexico.

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

I think Esclair is talking about the next gemeration or 2, whose father might be taiwanese and mother mainlander(or vice versa). They won't be as experienced smelling bullshit and might be more prone to indoctrination.

I fail to see why, where one’s parents are from has little to do with one’s ability to, say, turn the TV on and see said political bullshit taking place.
For real, there are already “mainland brides”, but the kind of large-scale immigration that Esclair is predicting isn’t going to happen – there is no economic reason to do so, it’s not as if Taiwan has a booming economy that lacks young workers, it’s the other way around.

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

As long as we are paying it to be there, it will be.

Yea, as long as there is no epic economic collapse in China, I don't see the CCP going anywhere anytime soon.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Yea, as long as there is no epic economic collapse in China, I don't see the CCP going anywhere anytime soon.

The dilemma is that despite my personal distaste for what the CCP does, I also know that whatever that can cause CCP to fall over economically, would also cause everyone else to fall over. Everyone would suffer together.

On the other end of the scale, at this point I don't expect economic prosperity to cause CCP to democratise. If that didn't happen in the Ming Dynasty, it certainly isn't going to happen now.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Basically, peaceful reunification can only happen if China gets its own mess sorted out..which probably means getting rid of the CCP's dictatorship.

If it ever gets its own issues sorted out it'll probably not make such a big deal about reunification at that point.

Originally Posted by kyp275

Opening trade =/= economic invasion, otherwise you’re basically saying NAFTA is really a three-way melee between US/Canada/Mexico, and the EU is really just WW3 in disguise.

The difference the intent behind the trade agreements. Look at this: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/201.../#.UvvJrPldWVE It's incredibly clear that they're using economic incentives to push Taiwanese to 'integrate' into the politics of the mainland, or in this case, a 'common' homeland. They're spending a LOT of money and effort in this and related endeavors.

No, the Pro-China crowds are the older generations, as many literally came FROM China, it’s the younger generations that are more anti-China.

I fail to see why, where one’s parents are from has little to do with one’s ability to, say, turn the TV on and see said political bullshit taking place.
For real, there are already “mainland brides”, but the kind of large-scale immigration that Esclair is predicting isn’t going to happen – there is no economic reason to do so, it’s not as if Taiwan has a booming economy that lacks young workers, it’s the other way around.

I have a lot of Taiwanese American friends, and while some of their parents have pretty strong views in this regard, all of them are somewhat apathetic towards this issue. A few of them who deal with finance made it clear that economic interests outweigh any of their personal views on the matter and the others generally don't care about the issue one way or another. Of course since they live in the US they probably don't have much personal stake in the matter compared to someone who lives in Taiwan.

I find in my generation that people generally care less about politics and nationalism compared to their parents, and as long as they're making money it really doesn't matter what's going on at the top. It doesn't help that Corporatism has pretty much taken over and Corporations themselves generally tend to pursue profits over anything else.

Also, regarding population, Taiwan, like all other first world nations, have a problem with declining birth rate and an aging elder population that creates a labor shortage in the long term: http://www.taiwaninsights.com/2013/0...ng-population/
Japan is ahead of the curve on this and they'll definitely be forced to re-examine their immigration policy within the next 10 years, which would probably serve as a guide for how Taiwan deals with this issue.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The dilemma is that despite my personal distaste for what the CCP does, I also know that whatever that can cause CCP to fall over economically, would also cause everyone else to fall over. Everyone would suffer together.

On the other end of the scale, at this point I don't expect economic prosperity to cause CCP to democratise. If that didn't happen in the Ming Dynasty, it certainly isn't going to happen now.

Indeed, in a manner of speaking one can say that China is now “too big to fail”. That said, I can see China becoming a bit more progressive over time, but nowhere near the standards of Western nations.

Originally Posted by Esclair

The difference the intent behind the trade agreements. Look at this: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/201.../#.UvvJrPldWVE It's incredibly clear that they're using economic incentives to push Taiwanese to 'integrate' into the politics of the mainland, or in this case, a 'common' homeland. They're spending a LOT of money and effort in this and related endeavors.

A lot of money spent yes, but I don’t see anything there other than exhibit #5893 in the “Over-developed Project That Nobody wants or will use in China” series. The only winners are the contractors that get to build the stuff. Other than the proximity to Taiwan and the obvious political implication, this is nothing more than another one of China’s “build it and they’ll come!!!” project, many of which ends up being little more than ghost towns.

The primary, and overwhelming economic draw of China has always been, and will continue to be, the promise of a large market and cheap labor – though the latter is starting to shift elsewhere. Silly projects like the one above may make some headlines, but not much else.

I have a lot of Taiwanese American friends, and while some of their parents have pretty strong views in this regard, all of them are somewhat apathetic towards this issue…Of course since they live in the US they probably don't have much personal stake in the matter compared to someone who lives in Taiwan.

Of course, they don’t live there, and I imagine some probably aren’t born there either, why would they have strong feelings about an island on the other side of the planet? The missile batteries aren’t aimed at them.

I find in my generation that people generally care less about politics and nationalism compared to their parents, and as long as they're making money it really doesn't matter what's going on at the top.

It’s the “me me!” generation, especially in the US, though not much better in Taiwan. That said, it really depends on the time and place. It’s one thing to be apathetic when things are quiet and nothing is expected to happen. It’s another if the threats (and missiles)starts to fly again.

Also, regarding population, Taiwan, like all other first world nations, have a problem with declining birth rate and an aging elder population that creates a labor shortage in the long term

That is not a one-dimensional issue that can be addressed by importing labor – the reason for the declining birth rate is due to economic woes, as growth continues to slow, and manufacturing jobs that were the driver of growth in days past are outsourced overseas. Immigration will not help – it’ll only drive up more resentment toward immigrants and foreign workers. Young college grads in Taiwan has a hard enough time finding decent paying employment – many work in jobs that pays less than $1000 US per month. Dumping more people into an already crappy situation isn’t going to make anything better.

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by kyp275

That is not a one-dimensional issue that can be addressed by importing labor – the reason for the declining birth rate is due to economic woes, as growth continues to slow, and manufacturing jobs that were the driver of growth in days past are outsourced overseas. Immigration will not help – it’ll only drive up more resentment toward immigrants and foreign workers. Young college grads in Taiwan has a hard enough time finding decent paying employment – many work in jobs that pays less than $1000 US per month. Dumping more people into an already crappy situation isn’t going to make anything better.

But here's the contradiction, with more immigration, the rate of consumption will also increase, which in turn create more profit and growth and end up creating more jobs. If they don't accept immigration, the downward spiral of low growth and lower employment(or salary) will continue. Of course, this is not a sure thing, but the current economic system in the world is build with this(unsustainable) growth of consumption as its base.

About resentment, sure there will be resentment toward the immigrant, but after 2-3 generation of immigration, can you really differentiate between taiwanese and mainland chinese anymore? Because they're both technically Chinese

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

About resentment, sure there will be resentment toward the immigrant, but after 2-3 generation of immigration, can you really differentiate between taiwanese and mainland chinese anymore? Because they're both technically Chinese

You got it backwards; after a few generations they become Taiwanese.

People in Taiwan don't magically become Chinese, if they aren't born in China. The people who call themselves Chinese are the ones who got assimilated by Taiwan, not the other way around.

Chiang tried it already, but the Taiwanese identity survived their rule. There is nothing new with any of this, the formation of Taiwan as we know it was originally caused by an influx of people from China. Throwing more Chinese into Taiwan would change nothing.

And "they are both technically Chinese" is only said by China. Much like Austrians are "technically German".

[aldw]

Originally Posted by kyp275

So self-determination = neocon? FFS, the UK have a stronger claim over the US than PRC have over Taiwan, at least the UK at one point governed the colonies, PRC never had jurisdiction over Taiwan for a single second. Your claim that somehow my own thoughts and beliefs are the result of Imperial Japanese indoctrination is insulting beyond belief.

Sharing cultural/ethnic heritage does not entitle you to annex another nation, or are you saying China should also go around and annex every nation that has an ethnic Chinese population?

It has very much the legacy of Japanese imperialism in it, particularly since it was their policy to de-sinocize Taiwan (and Manchuria) and promote a local elite supportive of their plans. That was the underlying basis of anti-Chinese sentiment on Taiwan and simply expanded and mutated from there. It does not take a psychologist to realize how much popular notions are based on existing social elements, many folks I know had to learn the hard way that democracy is not the end-all be all of socio-political systems after being taught that all their lives.

Regardless, the growing interaction and interdependence between the Mainland and Taiwan is a positive thing, not only on the economic level but also on the socio-political level too. It improves the open-mindedness and inclusiveness of both sides, and I've seen this from personal experience. This is hardly a smooth or simple path (such things in life rarely are), but the process of interaction is itself a value, and ultimate success is when distinctions are immaterial and irrelevant and people can see each other as brothers, however hard it may be, and that others can benefit from the experience.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Crusify_me

Taiwan, despite having a democratically elected president, its own military, and its own society and culture which is vastly different than that of Communist China, is not officially recognized as a sovereign state in the UN.

The only reasons that Taiwan is not a part of China today has to be that the Taiwanese people are able to elect their own president, and that Taiwan has its own military. If you strip a country of its land, its right to elect its government (democracy) and its means to protect itself (army), then you literally have lost all sovereignty.

The reasons why Taiwan is not part of China are:

1. Taiwan is an island, and China has never had the military capability to take it.

2. The United States has guaranteed the security of Taiwan.

3. China doesn't have any real interest in actually conquering Taiwan.

China's leaders are counting on the increasing economic and cultural ties between the two countries to grow to the point that unification will come sooner or later.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by aldw

This is hardly a smooth or simple path (such things in life rarely are), but the process of interaction is itself a value, and ultimate success is when distinctions are immaterial and irrelevant and people can see each other as brothers, however hard it may be, and that others can benefit from the experience.

A brother doesn't threaten to kill you if he doesn't get his way.

My point stands; if China want to be friends with Taiwan, they can start by allowing it to become independent. THEN we can be friends.

No go? Then the deal's off. Brothers treat each other like brothers. China doe NOT treat Taiwan like a brother, and that's the end of that.

It's what you do that counts, not mere words.

[Flower]

Last time I am gonna step in this thread and tell those posting in here to keep discussion civil folks. -_-

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You got it backwards; after a few generations they become Taiwanese.

People in Taiwan don't magically become Chinese, if they aren't born in China. The people who call themselves Chinese are the ones who got assimilated by Taiwan, not the other way around.

Chiang tried it already, but the Taiwanese identity survived their rule. There is nothing new with any of this, the formation of Taiwan as we know it was originally caused by an influx of people from China. Throwing more Chinese into Taiwan would change nothing.

And "they are both technically Chinese" is only said by China. Much like Austrians are "technically German".

Ok, taiwanese, whatever My point is, by the next generation or two, you can't really differentiate the two, so how do you resent those immigrants when you can't differentiate the two. At least in the Japan case(or almost everywhere in the world actually), you can differentiate the immigrants and making it "us" vs ""them", but in the case of immigrants from mainland?

Originally Posted by Flower

Last time I am gonna step in this thread and tell those posting in here to keep discussion civil folks. -_-

I don't see any personal attack/name-calling, care to enlighten us the post that make the discussion not civil so far?(not trying being smart ass BTW, I genuinely ask so I won't overstep the boundary myself)

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

But here's the contradiction, with more immigration, the rate of consumption will also increase, which in turn create more profit and growth and end up creating more jobs. If they don't accept immigration, the downward spiral of low growth and lower employment(or salary) will continue. Of course, this is not a sure thing, but the current economic system in the world is build with this(unsustainable) growth of consumption as its base.

That would depend on what kind of immigrants you're talking about. If it's the lower-skilled factory worker, it wouldn't make sense - those factory jobs are/have been shipped out of Taiwan to China, why would Chinese workers leave China to come to Taiwan for the jobs that are in China?

can you really differentiate between taiwanese and mainland chinese anymore? Because they're both technically Chinese

Actually, yes. Chinese ethnicity =/= Chinese nationality, or are you going to say that Singaporeans are also Chinese?

Originally Posted by aldw

It has very much the legacy of Japanese imperialism in it, particularly since it was their policy to de-sinocize Taiwan (and Manchuria) and promote a local elite supportive of their plans. That was the underlying basis of anti-Chinese sentiment on Taiwan and simply expanded and mutated from there.

Yea, it has absolutely nothing to do with the White Terror, the oppression of the general population by the KMT AFTER the Japanese left, or the fighting and constant threat from PRC since then

Blaming the anti-China sentiment on Japan is like blaming John Kennedy for the NSA wiretap program.

many folks I know had to learn the hard way that democracy is not the end-all be all of socio-political systems after being taught that all their lives.

That really doesn't mean much coming from someone pushing for communism/authoritarian dictatorship.

Originally Posted by Flower

Last time I am gonna step in this thread and tell those posting in here to keep discussion civil folks. -_-

TBH, I'm not sure how much of that you're expecting here, you literally have people here arguing for one country to forcibly take over another.

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Actually, yes. Chinese ethnicity =/= Chinese nationality, or are you going to say that Singaporeans are also Chinese?

Again, we're talking about immigrants who have stayed for 2-3 generations here. Let's forget the technicality of what you call them for a while, my main question is, can you differentiate at a glance between native Chinese taiwan and generation 2 mainland immigrant by looks or language anymore? And if you can't, how do the natives hold a grudge against immigrants who at a glance, look exactly the same as them(Or does the people at mainland/taiwan somehow can differentiate at a glance that someone came from mainland or a native taiwanese, dialects aside?)

Truth be told, I personally think Taiwan is better off as independent country right now. I'm just entering the discussion to exchange idea whether it's possible to "invade" a country by economic and immigration instead of the old way "join us or we'll shoot you"

[Flower]

For those who have been asking about what I was going by and what I was expecting it would be simplest to read this thread:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=122845

We expect such behavior regardless of topic. Again, as I mentioned earlier the topic of China and surrounding countries has been a flammable one for several months now.

The reason not much has been seen that appears outright getting near the line or crossing it is because I have been editing the posts, and pretty strictly.