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View Poll Results: When you think "critic", which definition first comes to mind? | |||
a person who is professionally engaged in the analysis and interpretation of works of art | 42 | 32.31% | |
anyone who expresses a reasoned judgment of something | 58 | 44.62% | |
someone who frequently finds fault or makes harsh and unfair judgments | 22 | 16.92% | |
other (please describe) | 8 | 6.15% | |
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll |
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2009-06-21, 10:17 | Link #41 |
Absolute Haruhist!
Artist
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 37
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I voted: 'someone who frequently finds fault or makes harsh and unfair judgments'.
Because this is how majority of so called 'anime critics' are nowadays. The critics nowadays are complainers and people who don't understand much. Because they don't understand what they're watching, they don't even know what they're talking about, and because of that, they are complaining of something that doesn't even exist, thus harsh and unfair. "I don't understand why", "I don't get how", "I have no idea how this can happen". Yes, obviously the 'critic' himself failed to understand certain points that the show itself has presented and others can understand, he calls it criticism. Then there's this group who thinks what he's looking at is 'crap', because he doesn't appreciate the style, the art, the animation, a certain voice actor(s). He thinks the show is crap and criticises because it has something he himself doesn't like. A 'critic' who doesn't know how to appreciate the rest of what is good, or simply doesn't understand what is taste. And for the critics who think they're good, simply because they know how to argue, because they know some debating terms and have a good command of the English language. My advice to them is to learn and have a decent command of the Japanese language first before claiming that they are actually good 'Anime critics'. Alot of critics simply have no idea what they really are watching because they do not have a full idea of what is expressed in Japanese, fansubs do not compensate for the loss in translation. Also if you're criticising something in a western perspective, your criticism is already flawed in the first place. In many instances, anime are created by Japanese for Japanese audiences, they are not designed to appeal to Western audience in a completely Western perspective. Understand some Japanese language and culture before you actually criticise some joke, some philosophy and stuff that your Western mind can't accept.
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2009-06-21, 10:21 | Link #42 | ||||||
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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2009-06-21, 11:10 | Link #43 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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That's not to say that their opinions are necessarily better than the rest, but rather that they draw upon a greater wealth of knowledge (one would hope so) when passing judgments. In other words, while any layperson is entitled to his opinion about the outcome of a court case, I'd sooner trust a judge's verdict than the diatribe from the man on the street (assuming that it was a fair trial). So, it follows: 1) Do I consider myself an "anime critic"? No. It's a hobby, not a job (thankfully!). 2) When considering which shows to watch, what factors into your decision? Do you tend to watch shows you think you'll like, or will you watch anything that seems popular or technically interesting? It's a bit of everything. Obviously, a show needs to be technically interesting in some respect for it to be popular in the first place, be it in terms of character design, animation quality, voice acting, music direction or storytelling. And I do tend to prefer anime with high levels of production quality. That said, I don't have the time to watch every single show, so I usually choose only those shows that get the attention of certain members in this forum — through experience, I find that their tastes in anime are a close match with mine. So, in this sense, it's fair to say that I tend to watch only shows that I think I'd like, although I do try to break out of the pattern every now and then, to watch anime from genres that I do not usually visit. 3) When considering which shows to discuss on the forum, what factors into your decision? Do you tend to discuss shows you like, or do you tend to discuss any show where you feel you have an interesting/differing argument/perspective? I contribute only when I feel I have something worthwhile to add to the discussion, especially when I notice that everyone is arguing over each other's heads. As a trained debator, nothing irritates me more than to see no progress in an argument. Many people have a tendency to belabour the same point over and over again, instead of moving on once the point has been made. And in those few occasions where I had been more talkative than I should have been, I'm ruefully reminded of Abraham Lincoln's advice: It's better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and erase all doubt. 4) How do you decide when to drop shows? What factors into the decision? Does forum popularity/participation factor into your decision-making? As far as I can tell, it's very seldom a conscious decision. For me, the spark of interest can come and go very suddenly. Basically, when keeping up with a show starts to feel like a chore, I'd eventually drop the show, even if I had been raving fan at the beginning. Forum popularity and participation are certainly not factors in the decision. Rather, it's usually a case of whether an anime continues to engage my heart and mind. It's also a case of whether anime continues to be relevant to whatever "meta-interests" I'm pursuing at the moment. For example, my most recent interest in anime peaked around 2006 and 2007, at a time when I was exploring different philosophical approaches towards ethics and aesthetics. Through anime, I discovered a wellspring of particularly East Asian ideas that are not usually explored in Western texts and that, in turn, triggered a renewed love affair with the medium. Since then, unfortunately, my interest in the medium has been waning. It's not the anime, but me — sad to say, but I believe I've started to move on to other areas of interest. 5) Which of these two problems seems more troublesome to you: that people feel unable to present contrary/opposing opinions and arguments, or that people feel unwelcome/uncomfortable posting in threads due to fear of having their personal preferences unfairly questioned? Both. If you have something to say, however unpopular it may be, then go ahead and say it — but you better be prepared for the consequences. I suppose the real question here is whether you are being a troll for doing so. While that depends, to a certain extent, on the eye of the beholder, I think it's fairly easy to tell when you're a troll or not. Simply ask yourself: Are you adding constructively to a discussion? And by constructive opinion, I'm referring to whether you can bring up new evidence to support your points of view. This is where the difference between a professional critic and an amateur becomes very noticeable — the former knows the difference (most of the time) between fact and opinion. |
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2009-06-21, 11:25 | Link #44 | |
Waiting for more taiyuki!
Join Date: Jan 2004
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But I find that "troll" is often used when people just don't agree with what you're saying. Taking an unpopular stance in certain threads on other forums can get you that label.
You can totally believe what you're saying and you'll still get that label. Quote:
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2009-06-21, 13:00 | Link #45 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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But as a short answer to this problem is probably just a change of tone. If someone has a negative/contrary opinion and comes across as menacing or overly-forceful, they're going to create walls. If they were to back off the aggression, they'd be more likely to have their opinion considered and not be thought of as a troll. I think part of this may be a reflection of what some people are taught in school; where you're supposed to boldly state your thesis and "prove it" using logic, and actively avoid any hint of the "first person". But not everyone wants to engage in that sort of debate, and in the wrong context that sort of presumptive boldness can be taken the wrong way. The fact is that very few of us here can truly claim to be "experts", and someone just arguing as if they were one doesn't cause them to be taken more seriously. All it does tend to do is cause people to tense up and take sides, resulting in a less-welcoming community for all. Anyway, I realize that I'm probably not really saying anything that hasn't already said, and I'm rambling a bit. But, as both a poster and a moderator, this question of "what counts as a troll" is always a tough one, since I personally have been known to be too presumptive about that in some cases. |
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2009-06-21, 14:20 | Link #46 | ||
AniMexican!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Monterrey N.L. Mexico
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He got attacked from every possible angle, got called a troll at least half a dozen times. People told him that he was insulting everyone in the Bleach section and that the only purpose of making the thread was to piss everyone off. And while I agree about the thread in question to be pointless, I found the whole incident on the whole to be a perfect example of what you comment above. Truly, the thread was full of trolls. Quote:
"Universal truths" that just so happen to coincede with his/her personal viewing habits. EDIT: Hmmm, looking again at your post, it would seem rather similar to what I said above. Just worded a bit different. >_<
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2009-06-21, 17:21 | Link #47 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Beneath the Flag of Freedom!
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Anyway, I think opinions are valid, and really, "unfair criticism," ought to be reserved for those who are being jerks about what they're saying. A rational, reasonable person saying what they think is not "wrong" for having their own criteria. If everyone experiencing a show got exactly what the creators intended, then I doubt anyone would dislike much of anything, because no one wants to produce something "bad." But how well a message or an idea is communicated to you is part of what makes something enjoyable or not, and while that can be as much on you as it is on the show, you have to base what you think on -something-. To address the main topic: I think that "critic" means a person who does this sort of thing professionally, and frankly, I think they probably lead somewhat unfortunate lives, because I question if they're able to simply enjoy things. Sort of like how I feel that those who get too focused on "literature," seem to forget why people enjoy reading books in the first place. I personally see myself as a critically-thinking anime fan, who is more than happy to nitpick anything, even when it's generally enjoyable. Oh, and the writer in me has a habit of wanting to rewrite things I wasn't fond of or thought could have been better executed, which apparently pisses people off to no end. Go figure. It doesn't help that most of the things I really absolutely love seem to have smallish, quiet fandoms (Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou-readers, give a hollah! *shot*), while I'm more ambivalent/negative towards things that people will defend to the death (Gundam 00, for instance). |
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2009-06-21, 19:04 | Link #49 | |
Absolute Haruhist!
Artist
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 37
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So, if one thinks that he's an anime critic, he should have a good understanding of anime to actually be a good critic, especially if he's a professional. And to have a decent level of understanding he should be good at Japanese and be able to view it in a Japanese perspective and not just a completely Western perspective. I don't think you can call someone a good critic if he doesn't even understand what he's watching or listening. Also the topic seems to be talking about forum critics, people who criticism shows as part of discussion, which I believe are not made up of professional critics. Many of these so called 'critics' don't make fair or constructive criticism, they're simply people who find faults and make harsh judgments based on their opinions. There are many instances where these 'critics' actually have no idea what they're watching. They find fault in homages, parodies, in-jokes and stuff, they condemn a show because of a certain point which they dislike. They complain of plot holes, going out of character, bad pacing, deux ex machina, 'trainwrecks', but they don't even seem to know what these terms are.
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2009-06-21, 20:23 | Link #50 |
Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Beneath the Flag of Freedom!
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@ C. A.: Fair enough, but since you defined "critic" as "someone who is overly harsh," I was assuming that we weren't talking about pros. I would agree that a professional should have thorough schooling in whatever it is they're critiquing, though I would point out that they're not necessarily any more reliable a gauge of whether or not you personally will like something, they just are less likely to be whiny about it. Most of the time.
Anyway, a lot of people who offer criticism of anime don't believe that they're "critics." They may give themselves more credit than they deserve as far as judging what's "good" and "bad" goes, but my point was that it's all so subjective I'm not sure you can really say that someone is overstepping themselves in voicing their opinions, unless they're really trying to portray them as fact. And again, if you're not going to judge based on your opinions, most people are left without much else to go by... there's the occasional case where you can tell something is good but it just doesn't appeal to you, but for most people that's not a common thing. To be fair, "constructive criticism" of a show made by people living halfway around the world speaking a completely different language doesn't really serve to be all that constructive, but I do see your point. Though whenever I suggest a show could have done something differently, I seem to catch flak for it, but... *shrugs* However, I can't speak to people who misuse terms like "trainwreck" or "deus ex machina" having not had the pleasure of dealing with them myself. Well, I've heard "trainwreck" tossed around for any series that people thought was devolving into something awful, but that's one of those heavily subjective things, so. |
2009-06-21, 20:35 | Link #51 | |
AniMexican!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Monterrey N.L. Mexico
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1) This Show Sucks! 2) This Show is Awesome! If one needs a certain level of understanding and knowledge to make his/her opinion worthy, I wanna know why these guidelines are only demanded from the first type of comment on this forum. Do the people following (and liking) X-show truly understand it? Do they like the show for what it is or do they like it simply because a lot of people are talking about it? Why is it that we never blink an eye to people that has been using the second comment for years now? Right now, many Umineko fans are claiming that the animated version of the game (soon to start) is going to be the greatest hit of the current season. Now, if someone (anyone) were to say that the show is crap, he/she will likely be bombed with bad rap for judging a show before it even starts. From this one can easily see that blind positive comments are never questioned, all the while the negatives ones are not only questioned, but also challenged and looked down upon. If people have something against harsh negative comments, they need to have something against blind positive ones too; Else, all explanations given fall apart, if only because the logic of it is not applied evenly to all comments in any given thread.
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2009-06-21, 20:53 | Link #52 | |
勇者
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 34
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2009-06-21, 20:58 | Link #54 | |
AniMexican!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Monterrey N.L. Mexico
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Now, I won't deny the existence of trolls out there, but for the most part, I feel that people overreact a little too much whenever a negative post shows up. Again, saying: This Show Sucks! doesn't really insults or offends anybody in this forum.
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2009-06-21, 21:00 | Link #55 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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Personally, I would read and evaluate for myself. If I have the same point in mind, I would probably rephrase it so that the comment has less sting, but is still on the right wavelength. If it's without merit, I just move on.
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2009-06-21, 21:02 | Link #56 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Whether you like it or not, when you enter a forum for a show, you're entering a domain of mostly fans. If you're not going to be a fan, you have to rise to a higher challenge. You only upset people when you imply they're wrong. That's the lot of one who insists on being different. That's life. |
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2009-06-21, 21:09 | Link #57 | |
勇者
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 34
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2009-06-21, 21:16 | Link #58 | ||
AniMexican!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Monterrey N.L. Mexico
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In all this cases the blame is placed on the viewer and not on the show. The though of accepting the flaw in any given anime can be a bit hard to swallow, so they blame (and question) the intelligence of the one making the negative comments instead. Implying that they are wrong can easily upset anyone........ on both sides. Quote:
From there and onward is really up to everyone to decide what they want to think about the poster in question.
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2009-06-21, 21:49 | Link #59 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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I sometimes got sucked into watching by popularity, but most of the times, its just based on my decision if I want to watch a show or not. Quote:
Sometimes, I read into anime threads, eventhough I don't watched the anime, just because the people post good discussions (about plot element, characters, politics etc.) Quote:
Sometimes, when I feel the anime has no more interesting things to offer, I drop it. Sometimes, when I feel that the thing I find interesting in the story is not being handled well, I might consider dropping. Another factor in dropping anime is when I feel that some conflicts that could have been solved right away in short episodes got dragged and replayed for long episodes (Pacing, I guess). Its a turn off most of the times. I don't think that popularity or criticism affects my decisions of dropping an anime or not. Quote:
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2009-06-21, 22:43 | Link #60 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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I think the best way is always to change your approach. Rather than attacking the show, just present your opinions and the reason why you feel that way. It's less threatening that way. That is assuming that you're willing to accept that just because you believe something is a flaw doesn't actually make it so. You can't expect people who come from a different point of view to agree with you just because you make what seems like a logical argument. Likewise, you can't just wait to be respected before you start truly respecting the opinions of others (even the ones you think of as just being "fanboys"). And this goes with what I said earlier in the context of the statement you extracted; if you stir up a hornet's nest, always expect to be stung. So sure, it's tough being told you're wrong, especially when you think it's unfair. But, most of the time, it only gets to that point if people are there to prove they're Right. And in the context of this forum, when people cross the line, that's when people should use Report Post feature to have a moderator intervene. |
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critic, anime, meta, discussion |
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