Kanon - 2006 - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Mez]

Spoiler:

felt kind of confused watching this episode, they built up quite a climax the last 2 eps that left me with a big "what's going to happen next??" feeling, and then they kind of just ignored that and went straight to an epilogue like ending

[Klashikari]

well then... my thoughts ~~

Spoiler for Bad & Goods points:

Bad Points :

• Shiori's recovery was really something too abrupt. while akiko's recovery was questionable, Shiori's drama impact was watered down A LOT. I think it would be better if she was alive, but kept in the hospital for a little while (Yuuichi visiting her, for example)

• Akiko's revelation was a bit... flat if you ask me.

• The furious rushing speed for the seasons. I don't mind the time required to take care of ayu, but the way how it was protrayed bothered me a bit... meh ~~

• No "true" Sawatari Makoto... meh ~~

• Hairband found, and the Gift scene : both of theses are bad and good points. why bad here? because they were a bit too convenient here... also, the scene between Loli ayu, and trenchcoat shota yuuichi didn't make a lot of sense to me (TBH, i didn't really understand how it should be taken... what in the reality did yuuichi do? this is the only messing up part of the episode)

• The lack of Ayu's Awakening scene : a powerful which has been ignored (dunno for the game though). also, it removes the opportunity to gives hints IF ayu's image was the real one, roaming around outside of her body, or an illusion/manifestation. Also, no hints if Ayu remembers or not of everything before her image disappeared. and finally, no hint if they are lover or not. (though, meophist comment gives me doubts about what parts are a dream, and what parts are the reality)

Good Points :

• The Sudden "everything is back to normal" : where the sudden rush of the seasons was kinda harsh, the whole mood swap wasn't anticlimatic. yet, it gives more insights for the characters.

• Shiori's burst moment : powerful, nuff said.

• Mai scenes with various outfit, and the insanely cute "glasses" parts <3 (critical fanservice *__* )

• Kanon whole cast, taking care of ayu : realistic to the fittest (i was impressed how detailed they were using carefully safety moves) and really heartwarming.

• Shiori's speech about miracle

• Hairband Found and the Gift Scene. as stated above, they are also good points : The hairband scene pretty much give the explanations about yuuichi and his memories, how he felt them and himself. The gift scene was really adorable.

• Yuuichi X Ayu final Scene : cutes parts, and fit pretty well for the ending.

I enjoyed this episode, considering as a pretty excellent end. but i do hesistate a lot for either a 9 or a 10, because this episode isn't free of flaws, and they aren't really small, nor huge either.
Most likely, the time jump is the core problem here, but, incidently enough, it gives emphasis of the important matter.

definitavely an excellent series. (now, it is time to try 2k2 version... i might regret it )

[houkoholic]

I don't think spoilers are necessary now that this is already the last episode's discussion thread.

I think some people kind of misunderstood something about Kanon. Unlike AIR, Kanon is not supposed to be depressing nor tragic. The mircales occurs to make things happy again in the epilogue (some people debate about the appropriate-ness of this, but that's another discussion altogther). Again, it's the fairy-tale like nature of the story playing itself here.

Shiori was never meant to die - I've mentioned before that she clearly survived long enough to meet Yuuichi when spring came in the game's epilogue, so there was no doubt about her not dying (yet) from the beginning anyway. In the game they never gave a proper explaination to her recovery, yet the Kyoani version at least tried to give it an appropriate explaination via the Ayu deus ex machina (while not sacraficing the theme of the show itself, great writing on Kyoani on that).

As for Nayuki. I've said it before that I would reduce my opinion of Kyoani's Kanon if they did not do the clock and I stick by that - and in the end Kyoani also reduced a fair amount of Nayuki's air time (and no this is not due to a lack of material to work with, Nayuki has plenty of material to go on as well, contrary to what people think). IMO Kyoani did cop out a little here, though 4 out of 5 "faithfuls" is definitely not a bad score on Kyoani's part, and they had achieved what all the other studios did not when it comes to VN adaptations - and that is it is possible to keep most materials from the novels and interweave them in a meaningful way without having to resort to butching it into a one-route-one-heroine-only story telling method.

Overall, I'll say that Kyoani Kanon is about 8.5/10 - marks deducted mostly for the lack of explaination to Nayuki's story, and some pacing problems now and there. Now if the other studios will dedicate the same amount of love to their VN adaptations as Kyoani does, we will get so many more quality and moving works to watch instead of being labled as "moe" shows.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by eplipswich

Yes it was all just an

Spoiler:

illusion as explained in this last episode. That means all the scenes between Yuuichi and the present Ayu, even the kiss, are an illusion. Yuuichi thought of it to ease himself from the painful memories of the accident.

Well, sort of, but not quite. It's more like...

Spoiler:

...a projection of the dreamworld in reality. In other words, to everyone involved, it seemed like Ayu was really there in the flesh, but she was actually confined to a hospital bed in a coma. This also explains the other questions you had about who was staying at Akiko/Nayuki's house and so on. It didn't all happen in Yuuichi's head, in other words.

[grey_moon]

I'm a big fan of Toei's Kanon (always been in my top 10) and now a bigger fan of KyoAni's version. I loved the way they wrapped it up...

Spoiler for my thoughts on how they tied up all of the endings:

I liked the way how suddenly everyone was okay, as it really stressed how a miracle happened, for me it made more of an impact that they showed the end results of how everyone was better. Kinda like how horror movies are far more scary when you don't actually see the scary scenes). In my mind I was stacking up all good things happening to everyone else and deep down I felt a twinge of "what if this is Ayu's wish and she sacrificed her chance of recovering to save everyone else?"

Ayu not waking up as soon as Yuuichi went to the hospitol I thought was well done, I could feel time ticking by and really felt Yuuichi's despair, especially right before Mai visits.

I hope that Ayu remember's all of the memories she shared with Yuuichi when she was in her coma self

Hmmm I don't get why everyone keeps going on about the clock....

Spoiler for why i think there is no need for a clock:

the clock scene was really special in toei's version, but I can't see where it fits in this one. Yuuichi wasn't about to leave, and Nayuki's mutual support scene I think far outweighs the clock scene, especially in the context of the KyoAni version.

Hee hee as soon as I saw Yuuichi's lost shirt I thought, is someone on the animation staff a Lost fan, or was it a reference to Yuuichi feeling lost, then I thought nah... He's obviously a fan of Lost from ASF

[guuchan]

So they just combined all the girls' endings together, eh.

I'm kind of half awake right now, forced myself to get up to watch this episode, so I'll just briefly state my first impression of this episode. To me, this episode is kind of disappointing. It is about miracle alright, and in the game they do end that way for the girls (plus a bit of original material by KyoAni, but the general idea is there), however for Ayu's part, I believe it left quite some questions behind to the audience. As for the impact, I was like "Ah, it's over". Just simple as that. There maybe wonders left behind, but there's no "aftertaste", if you know what I mean. For example, after finish playing AIR the game or even watching TOEI's version of Kanon, I would sit back and close my eyes, and felt like I was still in the story. But this, it's like "the end". Maybe if you watch the whole 24 episodes in one go, the previous episodes would stick in your mind, but this last episode just totally shut the whole thing.

Sorry if I'm not making much sense. I really need to go back to hug my bed.

Oh yeah, before I go, I have to say this...

It will take a while for me to get used to Kanon-less Fridays.

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Is that even an argument why an OVA shouldn't be made ?

Because it's a total (yet imperfect, I would say) closure that I don't see any room for making an OVA, without ruining the series.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

I don't think spoilers are necessary now that this is already the last episode's discussion thread.

I think some people kind of misunderstood something about Kanon. Unlike AIR, Kanon is not supposed to be depressing nor tragic. The mircales occurs to make things happy again in the epilogue (some people debate about the appropriate-ness of this, but that's another discussion altogther). Again, it's the fairy-tale like nature of the story playing itself here.

Shiori was never meant to die - I've mentioned before that she clearly survived long enough to meet Yuuichi when spring came in the game's epilogue, so there was no doubt about her not dying (yet) from the beginning anyway. In the game they never gave a proper explaination to her recovery, yet the Kyoani version at least tried to give it an appropriate explaination via the Ayu deus ex machina (while not sacraficing the theme of the show itself, great writing on Kyoani on that).

As for Nayuki. I've said it before that I would reduce my opinion of Kyoani's Kanon if they did not do the clock and I stick by that - and in the end Kyoani also reduced a fair amount of Nayuki's air time (and no this is not due to a lack of material to work with, Nayuki has plenty of material to go on as well, contrary to what people think). IMO Kyoani did cop out a little here, though 4 out of 5 "faithfuls" is definitely not a bad score on Kyoani's part, and they had achieved what all the other studios did not when it comes to VN adaptations - and that is it is possible to keep most materials from the novels and interweave them in a meaningful way without having to resort to butching it into a one-route-one-heroine-only story telling method.

Overall, I'll say that Kyoani Kanon is about 8.5/10 - marks deducted mostly for the lack of explaination to Nayuki's story, and some pacing problems now and there. Now if the other studios will dedicate the same amount of love to their VN adaptations as Kyoani does, we will get so many more quality and moving works to watch instead of being labled as "moe" shows.

Maybe the spoilers aren't necessary, houko-dono, but let's keep them anyway. There's bound to be those who reads this thread before watching the episode per se, and then whines about being spoiled....

Anyway, about my rant on Shiori. I do understand that Kanon isn't supposed to be like AIR; in fact, you might remember that I once wrote an essay in the veteran's thread, classifying AIR as an "epic tragedy", and Kanon as a "heartwarming fairytale". And I do also recognize that Shiori's recovery ties in with the "miracle" theme, so it fits in. On my part though, from what I know of the Shiori End in the original game, it concludes with a CG of a girl who looks like Shiori bumping into Yuuichi.....and then it ends there. I'm not sure if there's any more dialogue between her and Yuuichi after that, but I don't think so.

With such an open ending, my prediction was that yes, Shiori would survive all the way til Spring, and maybe even for a while afterwards....but in order to preserve the underlying tragedy in her storyline, she was going to have to die soon. I was thinking that KyoAni would make it such that Ayu's miracle gives her a few extra years, or something like that, but eventually she shouldn't be able to cheat fate; it just dilutes the whole emotional impact of Episode 19. I dunno......anyway, it's over.

As for Nayuki, personally I'm willing to let the omission of the clock scene pass; after all, from what I remember of the game transcripts, the clock scene is mainly the means to an end, said "end" being the solidifying of a romantic relationship between Yuuichi and Nayuki. However, from the start, KyoAni's Kanon has been pretty clear on the fact that there's not going to be a romance between the both of them. And if there's no romance....then, in my opinion, the clock scene would have served little purpose, except to muddy up the waters more than necessary. I'm happy as it is right now; Nayuki finding strength in herself once again, and no longer holding onto the past.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by guuchan

Because it's a total (yet imperfect, I would say) closure that I don't see any room for making an OVA, without ruining the series.

The AIR in Summer OVAs weren't "closure" OVAs, they were "in-depth" OVAs.

There's still a chance yet.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Hmmm I don't get why everyone keeps going on about the clock....

Spoiler for why i think there is no need for a clock:

the clock scene was really special in toei's version, but I can't see where it fits in this one. Yuuichi wasn't about to leave, and Nayuki's mutual support scene I think far outweighs the clock scene, especially in the context of the KyoAni version.

Spoiler for for the clock:

Toei's usage of the clock is totally opposite to what actually happened in the game, that's why you cannot picture how it would fit in the Kyoani version which is faithful to the game.

In the game, it was supposed to be Yuuichi leaving a message on the clock which got Nayuki out of her slump and got her to get out of her room. It was quite an important piece of the puzzle to what got Nayuki out of her depression, which in its current state in the Kyoani version is a little bit too, convient, so to speak, as it only took a little talk from Kaori to bring Nayuki out.

[Nagato]

10

I'm glad Mai and Sayuri can leave hospital before the graduation ceremony. Rushed as usual, yet KA still concluded all the girls arc excellently only with one word, miracle.

Well maybe Nayuki fans have disappointed with the ED, but I'm considering, we already have Nayuki and "Makoto" ending in the previous EP and Makoto in her last arc EP.

So, who is that disappeared Ayu? a proxy, ...err foxy girl?

Originally Posted by Klashikari

definitavely an excellent series. (now, it is time to try 2k2 version... i might regret it )

Propaganda:
Try remember again U1's advise to Jun,
世の中には知らない方が幸せなこともある。　

Edit:
"In this world, there's thing that it's better if you don't know it"
sorry, for odd English.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Spoiler for for the clock:

In the game, it was supposed to be Yuuichi leaving a message on the clock which got Nayuki out of her slump and got her to get out of her room. It was quite an important piece of the puzzle to what got Nayuki out of her depression, which in its current state in the Kyoani version is a little bit too, convient, so to speak, as it only took a little talk from Kaori to bring Nayuki out.

well, on the other end... considering that scene is in Nayuki's arc, where yuuichi doesn't harbor romantic feelings towards ayu, it wouldn't work a lot on Nayuki, in "KyoAni" version. TBH, it would be slightly better than yuuichi caring attitude towards her during her depression, by a small margin. (meh, that's my opinion ~~)

also, saying "only" about kaori is rather harsh, since Nayuki perfectly understand Kaori's feelings about shiori, so to speak : while nayuki seemed to leave her depression out quite easely, it wasn't really convient, considering how close their own situations were similar.

Originally Posted by Nagato

10
Propaganda:
Try remember again U1's advise to Jun,
世の中には知らない方が幸せなこともある。　

Hey ! translation pretty please ~~ (i'm already prepared to the "CHIN OF DEATH" of 2K2, but quite not with the "butchered sequencial following up 5 arcs" ~~)

[Deathkillz]

erm happy end i presume ^_^

Spoiler:

i must say...everything returned to normal quite fast...

looking at akiko and sayuri fit as a fiddle i can only guess that mai had something to do with it :3 (aka healer san)

i also felt that the characters have been somewat pushed aside...dam after shiori decided to leave in ep 15 im disappointed that we didnt see a grand entrance >.<
same with nayuki...things now are just as there where before...(but lacking ayu ofc)

the mai lunch scene was super kawaii! omg glasses mai = total win (still tho my heart is with shiori )

then akiko tells yuuichi of the girl who fell from the tree but didnt die...and the rest is history...

yuuichi finding the headband we finally know which scenario is the true one...

and that end the series with ayu in rehabilitation...slowly returning to normal...

oh and makoto made a quick appearence :3

great end :3 now i feel empty...time to run through 2k2

[Kinny Riddle]

I think I'll sort out my thoughts on this final episode on a girl-by-girl basis (along with their "side-character"). Don't think spoiler tags are needed anymore since everything's wrapped up now.

Nayuki (and Akiko) - I agree with many here that the omission of the alarm clock recording was a minus point for Kyo-Ani. Nayuki certainly deserves more in this series.

I don't know about the Toei version, but even in the original game, Nayuki's ending felt like a regular bishoujo game ending, even with Akiko-san's accident and her miraculous recovery (thanks to Ayu).

Makoto (and Mishio) - Constant references of her and a cameo by Mikuru, sorry, the real Makoto made up for her absence in this episode. She's even shown returning to the hill in spring, thus Yuuichi's wish was granted.

It's a pity that when Mishio served her plot purposes by the end of Makoto's arc, she was not heard of again, and we're only given a glimpse of how she has developed personality wise - starting to mix in with her classmates. But better one shot than none.

Mai and Sayuri - Not much to say really, besides......
Mai with glasses. (Nagato~~~ )

Graduation kimonos.

Mai being the one to give Yuuichi the final push to confront his past (of never handing the hairband to Ayu).

Shiori (and Kaori)

It's good to see her back, though the scene of her returning could be done in a less rushed way. Not to mention she's promised to buy tonnes of food for Yuuichi (namely boxes of ice-cream) if she survives. But I understand the constraints faced by Kyo-Ani.

Shiori wonders if Ayu was the one granting all the miracles, showing her thoughtfulness. In the game ending, Shiori also wondered where did Ayu go.

Kaori's comment on Akiko-san's legendary jam - Glad they included that in.

Ayu - As the series is focused on her ending, I was looking forward to how Kyo-Ani would take care of this, and I was not disappointed.

First, they showed Yuuichi visiting Ayu in hospital, sleeping soundly for 7 years. The game merely mentions Yuuichi rushinig off to hospital to see her.

Then the rest of the girls take turn to take care of Sleeping Ayu. A glimpse of how to regularly take care of a person in a coma, which is probably a first in anime.

Yuuichi coming to terms with his final denial (of never giving Ayu the hairband), followed by the Ayu ending. Ayu certainly looked cute in the new outfit.

In fact, for me, Kyo-Ani character designer Ikeda Kazumi did a better job than KEY's illustrator Hinoue Itaru in illustrating Ayu in the new outfit. Hinoue's "new Ayu" had longer hair, and didn't look as cute as Ikeda's "new Ayu".

And never did I once thought of a wheelchair when I first read Ayu's good ending, when I saw the wheelchair, it made perfect sense, for Ayu just recovered recently.



Overall, despite the gutter voters having fun pissing people off episode after episode (and some unsuspecting people who actually support them because of their perceived "persecution"), the series was a more-than-faithful adaptation (with some unavoidable flaws) which set a new standard for other studios to follow in terms of adapting bishoujo games. Even if Kyo-Ani's version isn't perfect, I seriously can't see anyone coming up with a better adaptation than this, at least not in this decade or next. (Yes, I'm biased and I don't deny it, so don't complain. )

And what's that I see after the credits? At first I thought it was merely the trailer for the movie (as I've not seen any clips from the movie), I never expected the rumours of the CLANNAD TV-Series to be true, and by Kyo-Ani of all people. What a great marketing move to capture people's attention.

In all, it's fun discussing with you guys and watching you bicker over each other on how the story will go. I look forward to seeing people bickering over the CLANNAD storylines (and probably can't avoid the inevitable gutter-voters as well).

[VooXoo]

In the end the only dead is the fox..or not?

Behind the tree (22.08) there is a weird shadow..........

I love this series and Kyoani.

The Clannad news is the best preview for me.

I Hope in OVA (other ending or future of characters)

[i0td]

Kanon 2006 is my first Kanon experience. In other words, I've never played the game nor have I watched the Toei version yet, so please understand that my praise of this series does not take account many factors from those previous versions of the story. And yes, I said praise, because I absolutely loved it.

The Kanon tale was an emotional trip throughout. The tragedies just seemed to keep on piling up with the end of every episode, but this final episode closes the story very well, at least for someone like me. I've gone over this thread and noted the KyoAni deviations, ergo the few complaints about the ending. From my point of view, however, these changes to the original story, with Ayu playing the role of the deus ex machina, for example, do not bother me one bit. Rather, with such as the case, these changes actually help tie up loose ends nicely indeed. The power of the dream, the wish, the miracle has been an underlying theme of Kanon and it has really been made clear with this final Ayu arc.

Sure, it was a bit anticlimactic for most people, seeing all of our cherished characters suddenly revived (even Makoto who steals the spotlight at the very end!), but it was definitely nice to be able to see our miracle play out in whole. That is, Ayu's wish to bring happiness to Yuuichi reaches everyone who has been part of his life. What a powerful way to resolve a story!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the emotional scenes have had their parts in the series already. They were absolutely brilliant and I was very moved by all the previous arc endings. But the time finally comes when there needs to be a happy (or sad) ending. Episode 24 delivers just that, and it was a splendid one indeed, to say the least.

10/10

[Meophist]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, sort of, but not quite. It's more like...

Spoiler:

...a projection of the dreamworld in reality. In other words, to everyone involved, it seemed like Ayu was really there in the flesh, but she was actually confined to a hospital bed in a coma. This also explains the other questions you had about who was staying at Akiko/Nayuki's house and so on. It didn't all happen in Yuuichi's head, in other words.

Spoiler:

I don't think that was quite it either. It wasn't a projection of Ayu's dreamworld, it was a projection of Yuuichi's.

[Julius Firefocht]

Years later, anime fans will look back at Kanon 2006, nod their heads in appreciation and approval and say "Yes, this is how a bishoujo game adaptation should be done."

Well done and congratulations, KyoAni!

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Meophist

Spoiler:

I don't think that was quite it either. It wasn't a projection of Ayu's dreamworld, it was a projection of Yuuichi's.

Spoiler:

I didn't specify either way; whether the dreamworld was Yuuichi's or Ayu's, it still fits. The point was more that it wasn't just an illusion, but a projected reality, which answered the original poster's other questions and confusion.

[houkoholic]

Spoiler for still on the clock:

The thing about removing the clock is it significantly reduces Yuuichi's role in bring Nayuki back on her feet, and it also more or less fell back onto the whole "Nayuki is the ultimate supporter" role that she's had been stuck with with the other adaptations.

As for the romance angle, the only way that came as romantic was the message that was recorded, my insistance of the importance of the clock is in its context - that it represent what was still in the end Yuuichi who had to acknowledge his neglectance and dependance on Nayuki's kindness and that it was his turn to be a supporter to her, and removing it significantly reduces that message. If possible, I think the best way would be to keep the context of the clock, but change the message itself to more properly represent this idea. This, together, with Kaori's confrontation with Nayuki, would IMO be more nicely flushed out explaination to why Nayuki came out from her slump and make it feel less rushed.

[Meophist]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Spoiler:

I didn't specify either way; whether the dreamworld was Yuuichi's or Ayu's, it still fits.

Spoiler:

You were kinda implying that it was Ayu's dreamworld, when she was in her own.

[Mirrinus]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

~ 05:48-05:55. Wait.....how did Sayuri-san know about Ayu? Am I forgetting something here, or is it just me?

Didn't Sayuri meet Ayu at the beginning of episode 16 in the hospital? From what I recall, both Yuuichi and Ayu went to visit her and Mai in the hospital.

Heh, I find it amusing how Ayu is the only girl to have met every other girl. Makoto and Shiori never met, Mai and Shiori never met, and Nayuki and Mai never met.