(L) Shingeki no Bahamut ~Virgin Soul~ (S2)

[Skaddix]

His people didn't want to fight a war with the Gods he did it anyway so no what the populace wants doesn't especially matter. He really only has to worry about the Nobles Revolting because they actually have money...this is an Absolute Monarchy. There are no trails, seeing as the heroes got auto convicted with no judges, no lawyers, charges read King gives the punishment case done. Put up dissenting posters, go to jail directly. Favaro got hard labor and torture for what? Drunk and disorderly?

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Add to this that for all his flaws Charioce is, in fact, innocent in Mugaro's death

Oh, please stop joking.
Charioe has ordered Mugaro to be killed for how many times already?
Should I remind you that order is still in effect?
He is most certainly responsible in Mugaro's death, no way around it.

[Blueknight78]

it's really serious which peoples are saying which "charioce is innocent??? which all the crap he did, with slavery, torture, denny of freedom, deny peoples from worship they loved gods, mass murder the gods, mass murder the demons order the kill of a innocent children and a lot of others craps things he did and peoples still saying which he did "the right thing" and was good for humans?? yeah maybe for the rich ones, but let's look at the non rich and comoners being threated terrible and almost like the demons, how his army is so crap which still attack others peoples, with "rape" torture and kill not demons but also the "poor" for sure he is doing the right thing, if anything else charioce is one a hell crap villian here and is really crap they trying to redem him throught nina, because somehow she is in love with a ass hole, even if she is a pure and innocent, even her could not stand for all the crap charioce did and decided to finally go against him, really this remember me a lot of places, like NK and others places where peoples are suffering in the hands of a totalitary government full of power and no one can opposite to it or be killed, jailed or tortured, yeah charioce is really a "nice guy" which like NK leader, killed his own family to step up as the king.

he for sure is a "nice guy".

[Guardian Enzo]

It's funny how closely the defenses of Charioce resemble RL apologists when they're talking about fascist regimes. Including in the present, both in Japan and the West.

[haseo0408]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

His people didn't want to fight a war with the Gods he did it anyway so no what the populace wants doesn't especially matter. He really only has to worry about the Nobles Revolting because they actually have money...this is an Absolute Monarchy. There are no trails, seeing as the heroes got auto convicted with no judges, no lawyers, charges read King gives the punishment case done. Put up dissenting posters, go to jail directly. Favaro got hard labor and torture for what? Drunk and disorderly?

It´s far beyond that, Charioce could have been a good king if he wanted but uses all the power for his objectives and refuses to share any information about this world ending threat on th horizon. He´s no king, he´s an evil overlord that cannot understand that what he´s doing is evil, anyone that thinks differently is murdered or imprison , there is nothing redeeming about this guy.

[Blueknight78]

about the "quo" status while i agree about not being a solution, but war or control are not the "only options" we have something called "diplomacy" they could had used that time when the "battle against bahamut ended" and all 3 races where at peace and could had tried make doplomatic moves and try to make them full allies instead of "slaves and enemies", if they tried go diplomacy and make a "mercant" relationship maybe things could had be different but they just goes to "each one to his own side and life" and not really tried to fixe all issues really not gonna work.

[haseo0408]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

about the "quo" status while i agree about not being a solution, but war or control are not the "only options" we have something called "diplomacy" they could had used that time when the "battle against bahamut ended" and all 3 races where at peace and could had tried make doplomatic moves and try to make them full allies instead of "slaves and enemies", if they tried go diplomacy and make a "mercant" relationship maybe things could had be different but they just goes to "each one to his own side and life" and not really tried to fixe all issues really not gonna work.

You are right, but the gods suffer such a heavy casualties they decided to isolate themselfs in order to recover and the demons had too much pride to see humans as equals and Charioce made sure now that diplomacy is not an option, not for a long time, everybody hates humans now but Charioce has a special place in the kill off list of humans and demons alike.

[Skaddix]

Note I am not saying reverting to S1 Status Quo is the best possible world...I am saying its the best outcome you are likely to get.

Who knows it might turn out be to better in that at least for now key members in all the top groups, Gods, Demons and Humans would be friends if you put Jean on Throne.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It's funny how closely the defenses of Charioce resemble RL apologists when they're talking about fascist regimes. Including in the present, both in Japan and the West.

There is that plus bonus he is attractive.

But yeah the Charoice defenses tend to mirror the real world defense of fascist wannabes.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by haseo0408

Prosperety bought with slavery, genocide and supresion of anybody who dares go against Charioce commands. Racism is even more common than before and the hatred planted in the gods and demons will last for many generations, yeah, hell hole is putting it midly.

Then Great Britain is a hellhole, so are most Western countries for daring to use slavery in the past. Genocide, similar deal.

I am so sorry for the nearly billion people who now live in the "hellholes" of the first world. My deepest condolences.

We are also long through discussing the hatred circle. If anything being sympathetic to demons now is an option rather than instantly branding you an evil demon worshiper. Gods? They are actually doing something so that's a relative plus compared to before. They are also willing to ally with the demons of all things.
The world after 2000 years is finally changing. Is it because of Charioce XVII? Even if yes, it isn't really what he intended to do.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

His people didn't want to fight a war with the Gods he did it anyway so no what the populace wants doesn't especially matter. He really only has to worry about the Nobles Revolting because they actually have money...this is an Absolute Monarchy. There are no trails, seeing as the heroes got auto convicted with no judges, no lawyers, charges read King gives the punishment case done. Put up dissenting posters, go to jail directly. Favaro got hard labor and torture for what? Drunk and disorderly?

Yes, the power is in the hands of the nobility and wealthy merchants. Welcome to the ancient world. Guess which social layer benefits the most from demon slavery? Whom Charioce would need to oppose to do anything against this? Not to mention the fact he literally used everything he could for a particular purpose.He could have fought the nobility but what's in it for him. That only delays his plan which is already an urgent problem. The seal on whatever is about to give in. If he tried to deal with social problems rather than laser focusing on his plan, it'd have been too late.

The issue is not that whether he is good, evil or whatever. The problem is that you put a responsibility on him what he cannot be really accounted for.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It's funny how closely the defenses of Charioce resemble RL apologists when they're talking about fascist regimes. Including in the present, both in Japan and the West.

Oh for the love of all holy, why would you conjure up Godwin's Law?
That's it, everyone involved in this argument (including me) have already lost! Once you bring up nazis and WW2 atrocities in a completely unrelated discussion it's just a shit show for all people involved.

[Guardian Enzo]

Sorry if the truth hurts so much.

For the record, there are a lot more fascists out there (past and present) than just the Nazis. But that being said, the problem with Godwin's Law is that there are actually times when fascism needs to be part of a conversation, and using some arbitrary literary rule to shut people up about it is basically just another way of being an apologist.

[willyvereb]

... Yeah, when actual fascism, nazis or anything related to them is being discussed. What you do isn't any different from using a slurr just to insult people and overall drag down any reasonable discussion to the mud.
I guess this is a good sign for me to just abandon this topic for a while.

[Skaddix]

Does Godwin's Law even apply to fictional works in the first place.

Saying Chaorice aint a fascist is like saying the Empire isn't Fascist in Star Wars.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by haseo0408

You are right, but the gods suffer such a heavy casualties they decided to isolate themselfs in order to recover and the demons had too much pride to see humans as equals and Charioce made sure now that diplomacy is not an option, not for a long time, everybody hates humans now but Charioce has a special place in the kill off list of humans and demons alike.

And that could had be the best time to try forge a alliance, when everyone was weak and you had contacts among them, when the gods started to isolate themselfs, they could had used joanna as a bridge to try to make a alliance with the gods, the same for azazel, they had a chance but wasted it, then charioce come and like "trump" almost erased any chance now and all he did was get angry demons, angry gods, angry dragons and angry heroes over him due to his "own selfish and vision about future" which can ultimate lead mankind to extinction.

[scififan]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Then Great Britain is a hellhole, so are most Western countries for daring to use slavery in the past. Genocide, similar deal.

I am so sorry for the nearly billion people who now live in the "hellholes" of the first world. My deepest condolences.

The story of Bahamut is not written for any philosophical discussion. The better place to go is Shin Sekai Yori novel discussion, where the author inserted a lot of his views on social issues.

Spoiler for off topic on two wrong make a right fallacy:

Just in case you don't know---Britain may be still reluctant to openly talk about it--but more and more American are opened to talk about the country's dark history, such as Washington and Jefferson. Some people also advocates to cancel Columbus Day due to his active involvement with genocide and slavery.
In Gundam universe, there is time where every side is reluctant to mention it, and this mentality is called 'Dark History'.

When producers planned the second season, their rough idea is first having dragon riding scene, and the second scene is having Jeanne pregnant. They eventually recruited the writer to put all their spaghetti idea into the structure. One of their ideas is making an unlikable character but later to make this character likable, so the scene of shouting to the moon is the final product. The writer inserted the idea of French kiss, but later producers found ti would be strange and trash the idea. As audience, we understand the story from the protagonist's point of view, but we can also disagree with the conclusion.

[Skaddix]

Are you American cause in no way would I say the US loves talking about its 2 Great Original Sins? Genocide of Natives and Slavery of Africans.

[AnimeFan188]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Ah, I rewatched a bunch in the last few months. Yeah, they completely abandonned the idea of "only enchanted weapons can threaten gods and demons" or just they are perhaps more widespread now. I mean damn, Anatae underwent a whole industrial revolution in those 7 years. Golems are now ridiculously common, mage support is given anytime they expect resistance (see the prison escape) and their overall production quantity just skyrocketed. Making enchanted anti-spiritual weapons common for soldiers wouldn't be such a stretch.

On the subject of special weapons, whatever happened to the sword they had that was
made from Bahamut's spur?

[Skaddix]

Yeah especially considering they got blasted by Bahamut you think the rebuild would take far longer.

I think Favaro lost it when he was making out with Amira.

[kuromitsu]

OK, this is getting ridiculous. It's starting to feel like the Macross threads all over again - is there seriously no way to discuss anything with more than a miniscule bit of complexity without it descending into Godwin's nightmare.

Also I've long given up trying to understand why some people can't seem to grasp that nobody is defending Charioce here. He may be trying to achieve good things, and he may have changed some things for the better, but he's going about it the worst possible way! He's doing bad things! The show keeps telling us that he's way over the line! He'll totally die in the end because after all he's done there's no turning back and he's burned all his bridges! But all this doesn't mean that he's a two-dimensional mustache-twirling villain, or that the other characters are all shining paragons of virtues.

Originally Posted by haseo0408

At the end of the day Charioce is true responsible asshole for this hole mess, it matters little why Allesand did such a horible act, the fact is that the king is the origing of all this missery. The status quo in season 1 was bad but I take it any day compare to this hell hole of a world he created, not even humans want him anymore, they live in fear to open their mouths to express their opinion.

What? You did notice the people very much opening their mouths to express their opinion, right? With the demonstrations and throwing stuff at the castle and the posters and whatnot? Sure, they then got taken away, because this is not a modern democracy but an absolute monarchy.

By the way, I still find this the worst-handled aspect of the story. The very first thing that Charioce declared when he took the throne all those years ago was along the lines of "as far as I'm concerned the gods can go eff themselves" right in front of his court. He's always been very open about it, he even dismissed Jeanne over it. So where was the public outcry all this time? Where were all these pious, god-fearing people when Jeanne was destitute and would have really needed some support? I'd understand if people were just tired of their homes being destroyed (then again, living in Anatae is apparently the worst option if you want a peaceful life), but this whole "no war against the gods" thing is ridiculous, considering the timeline.

Anyway, if you want to take back the status quo of Genesis, where humans are almost completely helpless against demons and entirely depend on the largely uninterested gods (and a handful of bounty hunters I guess) for protection, be my guest...

Originally Posted by haseo0408

Even if he has done all this to prepare for a great threat why didn´t talk to the gods about it? Hell anyone would have been fine!

Whether there's a great threat or not aside, really? It's been 21 episodes and you still don't understand why this is not an option? Even though it has been articulated a number of times?

Originally Posted by haseo0408

Prosperety bought with slavery, genocide and supresion of anybody who dares go against Charioce commands. Racism is even more common than before and the hatred planted in the gods and demons will last for many generations, yeah, hell hole is putting it midly.

OK, I don't get this whole "OMG SUPPRESSION OF FREE SPEECH!!!" thing as if it was suddenly a main issue. This didn't start with Charioce XVII, it was the same under Charioce XIII and likely all kings before him! (In a way XVII is a complete antithesis of XIII, taken to the absolute extremes.) And sure, if Charioce really wanted to he could crack down on the slavery, sure, but he has no reason to. He also has no reason to care about the well-being of the demons. No, he's still no Mother Theresa, he's never been.

Originally Posted by shmaster

Oh, please stop joking.
Charioe has ordered Mugaro to be killed for how many times already?
Should I remind you that order is still in effect?
He is most certainly responsible in Mugaro's death, no way around it.

So? Alessand still didn't kill Mugaro because he followed that order. (I wonder if he even knows about the order, or if he just has a vague understanding of Mugaro being a threat to the black knights' power -> good target to kill to prove himself for the black knight leader.) He killed the kid because he wanted to join the black knights. He didn't say "take me to the king, I killed the holy child!" He went to the black knights. Also, I'm pretty sure that while Charioce wouldn't be sad about Mugaro's death if he knew about it (and why would he, again? from his POV it's one less threat) Mugaro's importance has obviously moved way lower on his list of priorities since the activation of Dromos. He's long moved on to something much bigger.

And this is where I quit because this one just single-handedly ruined my day.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It's funny how closely the defenses of Charioce resemble RL apologists when they're talking about fascist regimes. Including in the present, both in Japan and the West.

The hell? Seriously, I know you have a problem with me but are you fucking serious? I guess you don't know but I live under an actual, real-life fascist government, I'm regularly attending demonstrations, I volunteer and take part in civilian efforts to achieve change. But sure, I'm a fascism apologist because I have opinions that are different from yours about a fictional story and a fictional character, and that I happen to enjoy complexity instead of shunning it. Jesus, you're just... Get off that high horse and maybe don't talk about things that you know nothing about, would you?

I don't understand why it's apparently such a weird idea that fiction can be enjoyed and appreciated without constantly trying to find RL parallels for it and basing all arguments on that (never mind getting on said moral high horse). Personally I believe that fiction allows us to see and consider things that we wouldn't see or consider in real life for obvious reasons, and that is a good thing that should be appreciated, because this is one of the ways that fiction can broaden our view of the world. And yes, it also means that it's entirely possible to appreciate characters or aspects of a story without being 100% down with them in real life, and that it's entirely possible to tell a story that is more complicated than "bad guys are bad, good guys are good."

[Blueknight78]

charioce is the cliche villian which do "bad things for the great good", or the means justify the actions, as long he get what he desire and think is right he will do anything necessary.

about "where the peoples" for what i see, most of the are "outside the main town" and many of them where threw in the jail or killed, charioce make sure no rebelions can happen by disposing off any possible threat, like he did with jeanne and peoples following her.

he turned jeanne in a "traitor" and trapped her as a simbol of treason and even that not everyone on the kingdom know what is happening, as we see many peoples don't even know what happened with jeanne for many peoples she just "disappear".

Also charioce count with a "powerfull army" which can handle any insurge.

All that make hard for anyone try to rebel against him.

his actions are pretty much as NK or even CHINE and others places where the government is totalitary and have full controll over the country peoples, he sufocate any chance of rebel and keep himself a strong army and keep the "riches" at his side to make sure he keep the "needed power in his hands whitout count the fact which like Kim he also murdered others family members to make sure he will be the only "next in line to be the king".

But with all that i can still see the writers trying to "redem him" for the sake of "ship"(ship) or keep the "ikemen" hot guy alive(ikemen plot armor) alive(for the sake of his fanbase), but in a real world his actions are beyond any redemption at this point and he is not better than guys like sadan hussen or kim jon.

[haseo0408]

Well, even if the human goverment is a monarchy does not mean Charioce could use some advisers, somebody to tell him he´s not a living and yhan might be other ways to make human life a bit easier but the guy cares nothing for feelings of those he rules.

I only have to complains with the story: 1.-We know nothing about the danger that is going to destroy the world soon and why Charioce is being such an asshole about the methods he uses to prepare and we´re 21 episodes into the story! Last season we knew about Bahamut from the start and the missing pieces of the mistery were hinted plenty of times and fit at the end, here is starting to feel a little rush.

2.-Nina, her whole romance with a guy with no good points whatsoever challenges my undertanding of love, yeah, I know love is blind but still! This guy is monster, he has commited genocide, promotes slavery and has tried to kill her friends since before the seaon even started and still she protected him! She might have not killed Mugaro but sure as hell has some blame on his death, a fact Jeanne and Azazel will surely remember. I´m praying this does not end in a redemption of Charioce becuase of the love Nina because I will seriously puke.