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Old 2014-01-02, 19:30   Link #1521
name93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
If you guys had actually read the interview translations, Urobuchi only had the idea for a different, less open ending, not a fully written script or anything like that. It was quite early in production that he got told to write an ending that left room for a continuation, and while it was Shinbo who came up with the idea of making Homura and Madoka enemies, that was the script Urobuchi ended up writing.

Please stop trying to invalidate the ending like this. Madoka was planned and produced by Magica Quartet, not Urobuchi alone; it was, from the beginning, a collaborative effort.

If you don't like the ending, that's fine, but please stop pretending as though Rebellion was ever going to be anything other than what it is.
Allow me to prove you wrong to a degree:

Quote:
UROBUCHI
"While the show was still airing Iwagami approached me and asked what I thought about doing a sequel. I just laughed it off and didn't take it seriously but he repeated it several times and I eventually realised he was serious."
They came up with the idea for a sequel through brainstorming sessions, and this idea of it taking place inside Homura's soul gem as she starts to become a witch was the first idea they came up with.

The big plot twist WASN'T Urobuchi's idea, he was going to have Madoka just take Homura away and the end, but Iwagami and Shinbou wanted to be able to let it continue.
Having Madoka and Homura being on opposite sides at the end was Shinbou's idea.
http://pastebin.com/MAGSC8Ay


Urobutchi wrote his ending in the original story. What was said there was his vision of Homura and Madoka and their relationship. He didn't want to write anything after that because that ending was his baby ( I refer you to the interview in the last volume of Fate/Zer ).
But Shaft kept bugging him about writing a sequel, so he agreed, and wanted to write a story which would have ended with Homura being taken to 'heaven' by Madoka, in confirmation of Madoka's promise in ep 12 that they'll meet again. Happy ending for everyone.

But Shinbou suggested and eventually persuaded Gen into turning Homura into a villain.
So yeah, people who 'want to pretend that Rebellion was originally going to be something else' aren't really unjustified in their views.
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Old 2014-01-02, 20:07   Link #1522
ultimatemegax
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Care to show the financial figures supporting your claim?

And if you don't have such figures, then what do you support your claim with?
Production committee membership:
Aniplex/Houbunsha/Hakuhodo DY Media Partners Inc./Nitroplus/Movic/MBS/Shaft

The more to the left (and on top) you are, the more money you contributed to production and the more you earn in revenue streams. Aniplex will earn the majority of disc profits (video/music) while getting small cuts of other streams like books (Houbunsha) and merch (Movic) as part of the original publisher. Shaft will get a small cut from what everyone else gives them, but not as much as Aniplex will get from their streams and everyone else. Shaft does earn some extra due to being 1/4th of Magical Quartet, but we don't know if Shinbo/Ume/Urobuchi/Shaft split the "original creator" money equally. Basically everything goes back to Aniplex in a much greater fashion than Shaft.
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Old 2014-01-02, 20:08   Link #1523
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by name93 View Post
So yeah, people who 'want to pretend that Rebellion was originally going to be something else' aren't really unjustified in their views.
...Nothing you have said disproves any of my assertions.
Rebellion was never going to be anything else than what it is. Rebellion was either going to exist in its current form, or, as many people seem to prefer, not have existed at all.

All I'm trying to point out is that there was never an initial script in which Homura was taken away by Madoka at the end; that was the idea Urobuchi had going into the planning sessions, yes, but not what the result of them was. Acting like Urobuchi's original concept for Rebellion's ending was changed at the last minute due to corporate greed is being disingenuous, and that's all I'm trying to say.
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Old 2014-01-02, 21:49   Link #1524
Sol Falling
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Incidentally, here's a much more complete source for the movie pamphlet than the brief excerpts/outline provided by that pastebin:
http://feral-phoenix.livejournal.com/685568.html

It paints a much more level-headed picture about Urobochi's involvement/investment in the new movie and storyline.
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Old 2014-01-02, 22:11   Link #1525
FierceAlchemist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by name93 View Post
Allow me to prove you wrong to a degree:



http://pastebin.com/MAGSC8Ay


Urobutchi wrote his ending in the original story. What was said there was his vision of Homura and Madoka and their relationship. He didn't want to write anything after that because that ending was his baby ( I refer you to the interview in the last volume of Fate/Zer ).
But Shaft kept bugging him about writing a sequel, so he agreed, and wanted to write a story which would have ended with Homura being taken to 'heaven' by Madoka, in confirmation of Madoka's promise in ep 12 that they'll meet again. Happy ending for everyone.

But Shinbou suggested and eventually persuaded Gen into turning Homura into a villain.
So yeah, people who 'want to pretend that Rebellion was originally going to be something else' aren't really unjustified in their views.
Here's a more complete version of that quote. Source: http://feral-phoenix.livejournal.com/685568.html#%7C

Quote:
How did you come up with the new story?
Urobuchi: At first I did a lot of brainstorming to come up with all the ideas I could, and played around with the results.
Who did you brainstorm with?
Urobuchi: I was in contact with Iwakami-san, Shinbou (Akiyuki)-san, and Aoki (Ume)-san, so they all came to help me.
What kind of story did you think up at first?
Urobuchi: From the start, the idea was “Homura becomes a witch, and the story takes place inside her barrier”. But at the time, I wanted to end the story with Madoka taking Homura away with her. So, I thought the story would end this time for real (laughs). But both Iwakami-san and Shinbou-san were like, “No, we want the story to keep going after this” and wouldn’t give me the OK. So then when I was getting really worried, Shinbou-san was like “Might as well just make Madoka and Homura into enemies”. And that suggestion was basically the breakthrough. I really agreed that Homura might be plausible as Madoka’s equal opposite.
So the plot came together based on the concept of Madoka and Homura becoming enemies.
Urobuchi: That’s right. Once I knew the direction I was working for, everything came together, so I wrote the screenplay after that. I wrote the first draft, and then came the revisions, and it ended up as it is now.
Urobuchi said that he was brainstorming with Shinbou and Iwakami and that's where he presented the "Homura goes to heaven idea." They wanted the story to be open ended enough so they could make more, so Shinbou proposed the idea to make Madoka and Homura into enemies. That was the "breakthrough" for Urobuchi. He embraced that as a plausible direction for the story and wrote the screenplay after that.

So yeah, Urobuchi had a different idea for the ending, but that never made it into the screenplay. Who knows what ideas he had for the TV show that never made it into the script. Countless things change over the development of any anime, it's part of the collaborative process. I've heard that Shinbou was actually the one who came up with the initial idea for the Madoka TV show, not Urobuchi.
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Old 2014-01-02, 23:59   Link #1526
Tyabann
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Yeah, that's the bit I was referring to. Thanks.
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Old 2014-01-03, 07:58   Link #1527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post
Production committee membership:
Aniplex/Houbunsha/Hakuhodo DY Media Partners Inc./Nitroplus/Movic/MBS/Shaft

The more to the left (and on top) you are, the more money you contributed to production and the more you earn in revenue streams. Aniplex will earn the majority of disc profits (video/music) while getting small cuts of other streams like books (Houbunsha) and merch (Movic) as part of the original publisher. Shaft will get a small cut from what everyone else gives them, but not as much as Aniplex will get from their streams and everyone else. Shaft does earn some extra due to being 1/4th of Magical Quartet, but we don't know if Shinbo/Ume/Urobuchi/Shaft split the "original creator" money equally. Basically everything goes back to Aniplex in a much greater fashion than Shaft.
Thanks for the info.

So do you or Kaisos think that this makes it less likely that we get more Madoka Magica? Could Madoka Magica become another Haruhi, with Aniplex being comparable to Kadokawa?
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Old 2014-01-03, 08:09   Link #1528
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They're different animals. Haruhi is licensed, Madoka is not. Even if their slice of the pie isn't as large, they can still do anything they want with it. Haruhi was, for all intents and purposes, dropped due to not being "in house". You're not likely to get more "in house" than Madoka, since no company wants to take on such a huge risk by themselves.
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Old 2014-01-03, 09:53   Link #1529
ultimatemegax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Thanks for the info.

So do you or Kaisos think that this makes it less likely that we get more Madoka Magica? Could Madoka Magica become another Haruhi, with Aniplex being comparable to Kadokawa?
Very likely to have more made. Aniplex uses anime to advertise video discs/CDs and associated merch, all of which Madoka sells a ton of. There's always more to be made as they're original.

The comparison isn't exactly the same as Kadokawa uses anime to promote novels, which there hasn't been a lot lately for Haruhi. Considering that Haruhi has the most per/volume printed of any LN, it's difficult to argue that making more anime would move novels.

Different companies, different ways they use anime.
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Old 2014-01-03, 13:57   Link #1530
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So yeah, the voice actresses basically agree Homura's feelings for Madoka are far from being simple friendship,

http://feral-phoenix.livejournal.com/685936.html#%7C
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Old 2014-01-03, 15:06   Link #1531
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Originally Posted by bigbossbalrog View Post
So yeah, the voice actresses basically agree Homura's feelings for Madoka are far from being simple friendship,

http://feral-phoenix.livejournal.com/685936.html#%7C
Is there really any doubt of Homura's feelings at this point? She flat out said that everything she's done has been because of her love for Madoka.

What's more unclear is whether Madoka reciprocates those feeling. It was only when she became Madokami that she was able to understand everything that Homura had done for her and she called her "my very best friend". Madoka is so selfless she cares for everyone, all magical girls throughout time, not Homura alone. It's pretty tragic that the only way Madoka can fully understand Homura's love means she has to give up any chance of a mortal life, any chance of being with Homura.
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Old 2014-01-03, 16:08   Link #1532
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Quote:
How did you two feel about Homura’s love? It seemed like Saitou-san’s own feelings were changing, but…

Saitou: No, but really! I suspected as much. Homura’s feelings were a bit intense for “friendship” as it’s defined in this day and age. I always thought that what she felt was closer to love than friendship. Being able to cut off everything you don’t like and freeze everything in its ideal shape is the scariest thing about romantic feelings. And to actually call those actions “love”… is pretty scary.

Yuuki: I thought she was greedy. I think Homura-chan’s feelings are closer to “desire” than to “love”. Homura-chan has been repressing her feelings for a long time. But everything she bottled up eventually exploded, and got so out-of-hand that they changed the whole world. And as a result, Homura-chan tore Madoka to pieces. In the TV series, Madoka “wished for something that would break the things dear to her in the end”. Remembering that makes me sad.
Their opinions don't even fully match up on this, lol.

Also, their argument is basically that Homura doesn't fit the typical idea of friendship in the modern age....which is meaningless since she doesn't exactly fit the modern idea of love ever, and more or less says as such in her Satan Modo Ascension.

Quote:
Homura’s wish also winds up contradicting what Madoka wished for in the TV series.

Yuuki: I don’t think Homura-chan really understood what Madoka wanted. I was really sad about that. At the same time, I think that the plotline of Homura-chan tearing Madoka apart felt like classical mythology.
....which means Homura's emotions probably mirror classical interpretations for the sake of allegory. It could be love. But assuming so like it's an 100% unambiguous thing is foolish. Personally, I find it more fun to try to plug in all of them.

Quote:
Is there really any doubt of Homura's feelings at this point? She flat out said that everything she's done has been because of her love for Madoka.
Yeaaa, but what kind of love? Eros? Philia? Agape? There's like four kinds and Homura might even be inventing one given her dialog.
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Old 2014-01-03, 16:41   Link #1533
FierceAlchemist
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Yeaaa, but what kind of love? Eros? Philia? Agape? There's like four kinds and Homura might even be inventing one given her dialog.
Well, that's the million dollar question isn't it? It all comes down a person's interpretation of love. I glanced at this to form my own opinion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fou...The_Four_Loves

For me, Homura's love ranges between selfless agape at its best and selfish eros at its worst. Her countless sacrifices in her journey to protect Madoka and expecting nothing in return is very noble of her. However, her actions in Rebellion, while done out of good intentions and based on Madoka's own admission that she wouldn't be happy being apart from everyone, still override Madoka's free will. She forces happiness onto Madoka despite Madoka's selfless desires.

Now Homura is redeemed somewhat in that while she could have completely overwritten Madoka's free will, she didn't. She still doesn't expect Madoka to reciprocate her feelings and even accepts the likelihood that they will become enemies one day. She puts Madoka's happiness and livelihood above her own feelings and the stability of her new world. There's a lot to suggest that Homura is feeling extremely guilty about what she's done to Madoka (her familiars throwing tomatoes at her, the single chair on the hill, all the suicide imagery).

So I think Homura's current love for Madoka is an unhealthy love, but still love. It's not irredeemable.
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Old 2014-01-03, 21:03   Link #1534
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
...

Besides Madoka's nagging attempts to re-awaken, what are Homura's actual LIMITS here? How can she be opposed, and why would someone oppose her? This world has to have some flaw that makes it inferior to Madoka's world, or there's no conflict to drive the coming Homura/Madoka ideals clash.

...

Alright, pick a discussion prompt. I brought up pretty much ALL of them.
What is the nature of Homura's new power? What is the extent of it?

It looks as though we've seen the last of Time-hopping Homura, or is time manipulation part of her brand new devil powers so she doesn't need to worry about a shield and stuff? It seems somehow that Akuma Homura's powers should be different from Ultimate Madoka's powers because they seem to be different kinds of beings. Heck, Ultimate Madoka wasn't even a being so much as she was supposedly an essaece of the universe that regulates the existence of magical girls. But then she was able to manifest a partially erased-memory version of herself into Homura's mind? Did she always have that ability, and if so, why didn't she use it before to at least cheer Homura up? Or did the barrier created by the Incubators so negate Ultimate Madoka's powers that that is why she was able to send herself into Homura's/Homulilly's barrier?

If Madoka rewakens, will she be able to maintain her corporeal form? Um, Homura's new universe devoid of witches seems to render Ultimate Madoka's role as witch-negating universal force redundant, which may mean her existence in that form...impossible? Or will her reassertion reimpose that older order?

...Well, that escalated quickly.

Last edited by MYWA; 2014-01-03 at 21:21.
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Old 2014-01-03, 22:38   Link #1535
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Quote:
But then she was able to manifest a partially erased-memory version of herself into Homura's mind? Did she always have that ability, and if so, why didn't she use it before to at least cheer Homura up? Or did the barrier created by the Incubators so negate Ultimate Madoka's powers that that is why she was able to send herself into Homura's/Homulilly's barrier?
She did it by handing her powers over to someone else and accepting an invitation into a Witch's barrier. Not exactly a common circumstance. ^_^;;

Quote:
If Madoka rewakens, will she be able to maintain her corporeal form?
I doubt it.
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Old 2014-01-03, 22:41   Link #1536
FierceAlchemist
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Originally Posted by MYWA View Post
What is the nature of Homura's new power? What is the extent of it?

It looks as though we've seen the last of Time-hopping Homura, or is time manipulation part of her brand new devil powers so she doesn't need to worry about a shield and stuff? It seems somehow that Akuma Homura's powers should be different from Ultimate Madoka's powers because they seem to be different kinds of beings. Heck, Ultimate Madoka wasn't even a being so much as she was supposedly an essaece of the universe that regulates the existence of magical girls. But then she was able to manifest a partially erased-memory version of herself into Homura's mind? Did she always have that ability, and if so, why didn't she use it before to at least cheer Homura up? Or did the barrier created by the Incubators so negate Ultimate Madoka's powers that that is why she was able to send herself into Homura's/Homulilly's barrier?
Homura manifested her witch's labyrinth inside her soul gem due to Kyubey's isolation field. That made a unique scenario where going inside her soul gem fulfilled the Law of Cycles role of saving magical girls from despair. I don't think it's something she can do normally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MYWA View Post
If Madoka rewakens, will she be able to maintain her corporeal form? Um, Homura's new universe devoid of witches seems to render Ultimate Madoka's role as witch-negating universal force redundant, which may mean her existence in that form...impossible? Or will her reassertion reimpose that older order?
It seems like the Law of Cycles still exists in Homura's world, she's just torn the human portion of Madoka out of it. I don't know exactly what would happen if she fully manifested her power. My guess would be she'd be corporeal until she broke Homura's barrier. It's like how they broke out of Homura's soul gem, you need to breach the shell before you can reset the universe.
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Old 2014-01-05, 16:58   Link #1537
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Originally Posted by Sayaka's sandbag View Post
As others have said, I'm sure that the next part(s) of the story WILL happen, Shaft may not have any plans currently but I bet they'll all go to staff meeting 6 - 12 months down the road and start talking about where Madoka Magica will and/or can go from where Rebellion has left us.
Movies(Beginning, Everlasting, Rebellion) were announced as trilogy
http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Madoka_Magica_Movie
I think they will make a sequel, but I wouldn't expect it to be a direct continuation of Rebellion.
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Old 2014-01-05, 19:08   Link #1538
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Originally Posted by woxx View Post
Movies(Beginning, Everlasting, Rebellion) were announced as trilogy
http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Madoka_Magica_Movie
I think they will make a sequel, but I wouldn't expect it to be a direct continuation of Rebellion.
What sort of continuation would it be then? It has to be set in Homura's new world.
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Old 2014-01-05, 20:54   Link #1539
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I expect it to be a continuation of Rebellion Story. It probably won't take place, say, 2 days after the end of movie 3. There maybe a minor timeskip of a year or a few months to allow for a degree of plot/character progression. The characters need to settle down in their new mental states and relationships with each other.

I see the possibility of a number of side stories or alternative universes, e.g. what happened before Homura became a witch, Oriko, Different Story, what happened in some of the timeloops that Homura went through, etc. But these are probably more suitable as OVAs, radio dramas or TV specials. I don't see movie 4 or TV season 2 to go these routes, because they are far less interesting than what happens in Homura's new world.

Personally, I'd like to see some sort of slice of life comedy in Homura's new world. That still counts as a continuation though.
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Old 2014-01-07, 11:40   Link #1540
omimon
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http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-new...en-in-2-months

Shaft/Aniplex is racking it in.

(But they still can't do a 2 cour season.) :'(
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