[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

This. This right here...

Kryie ENVIED Asumu.If she was as cold and calculating as portrayed in the EP7 tea party, don't you think that she would have offed Asumu alot sooner than a decade? Or had Battler killed while he was off with his grandparents? She certainly had no problem killing anyone on that island, and she had made that decision in five minutes.

But she didn't have an opportunity to do so. She is vengeful, but she isn't an idiot. The bomb offered Kyrie an opportunity to basically get away with everything and anything that happened on the island.

I mean, I do think it was strange that she didn't do anything in eighteen years about Asumu. Maybe she did eventually off Asumu, but that's debatable.

If she killed Asumu straight off, things would have gotten messy and Rudolf would probably have figured it out and held it against Kyrie. That would have been counterintuitive for her.

[AuraTwilight]

That's one way of looking at it. I don't see it that way though. It may be painful, but that was the truth of what really happened on Oct 4th and 5th. Out of all the infinite possibilities, it was *the one that actually happened*.

Says who? It's not even confirmed in red.

I agree with everyone in here that says that Bern is pulling a fast one on the crew with the tea party. The thing is, how is she doing it? She's stated that she isn't the game master, but what if she is? Would doing things that aren't possible with the pieces end up with her falling into a logic error? I really hope this is the case to have a sense of satisfaction in locking her up in one in EP8!

Excuse me, but Bernkastel was acknowledged as the Gamemaster for EP7, but then later she says, "I haven't even done any real Gamemastering, just leading a funeral."

Meaning that even though she was Gamemaster, she does not feel she got to fulfill that duty to her own satisfaction, and thus didn't acknowledge herself as Gamemaster.

She never said it in Red, afterall.

It's a win-win situation. Even if Rudolf dies, she's free from him and can live her life how she wants to.

Except Kyrie loves Rudolf and compares to life without him as a hell that will never be escaped until she dies.

So basically, either this is false, or everything we've been shown is a baseless lie, meaning that we were never given the clues to come to this conclusion, meaning Ryukishi is a bad writer.

I'll go with the answer that doesn't mean that Ryukishi can't write.

Also, the original Red line was better read as A Happy Ending Will Not Be Given. So there you go.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

But she didn't have an opportunity to do so. She is vengeful, but she isn't an idiot. The bomb offered Kyrie an opportunity to basically get away with everything and anything that happened on the island.

I mean, I do think it was strange that she didn't do anything in eighteen years about Asumu. Maybe she did eventually off Asumu, but that's debatable.

If she killed Asumu straight off, things would have gotten messy and Rudolf would probably have figured it out and held it against Kyrie. That would have been counterintuitive for her.

She admitted that she didn't in EP6, but she came close. And I beg to differ- she had at least ten years to actually plan something, and she did...nothing, except suffer in silence. Which, in itself, odd.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

But Kyrie is cold and calculating: she knows she doesn't lose anything if she kills everyone on the island. Either
a.) There is money on the card and she gets rich without getting in trouble (the island blows up),
or
b.) The is no money on the card and she can just make off with a few of the ingots she stole from the pile.

It's a win-win situation. Even if Rudolf dies, she's free from him and can live her life how she wants to.

She is. Even more so than Eva. But she's also calm unless she's attacked. Which is why she should of realized then that when someone planning to kill you comes out and says "there are the four guns that I was going to use". There's another purpose to it. It's her famous line so Turn the chessboard over. Why would a single murderer need exactly four guns?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

But Kyrie is cold and calculating: she knows she doesn't lose anything if she kills everyone on the island. Either
a.) There is money on the card and she gets rich without getting in trouble (the island blows up),
or
b.) The is no money on the card and she can just make off with a few of the ingots she stole from the pile.

It's a win-win situation. Even if Rudolf dies, she's free from him and can live her life how she wants to.

What about:

c.) Being put under trial for mass murder and being executed by hanging?


Exactly what proof she had that the bomb actually existed apart from the words of someone who's clearly mentally unstable and that clearly set up the whole thing to make the adults kill each other?


Would you really trust such a person to the point of betting in it EVERYTHING that you have, including your own life?

[oompa loompa]

Wait.. wait wait wait..

Spoiler for world of episode 7:

In Lions world, where the murders supposedly happen again.

If Lion exists, Beatrice does not, right?
So... If Beatrice doesn't exist, who told the siblings about the bomb switch? I can hardly see them finding out in any other way, unless there is another Beatrice like person. Unless, things turn out differently in this world, and the police do just find the culprit later?

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by oompa loompa

Wait.. wait wait wait..

Spoiler for world of episode 7:

In Lions world, where the murders supposedly happen again.

If Lion exists, Beatrice does not, right?
So... If Beatrice doesn't exist, who told the siblings about the bomb switch? I can hardly see them finding out in any other way, unless there is another Beatrice like person. Unless, things turn out differently in this world, and the police do just find the culprit later?

I brought it up awhile ago, though the question still stands. I would put it past sane Kinzo to follow his relatives down there.

[AuraTwilight]

Basically, Bern is so full of shit that she didn't even think through her lies very well at all.

[einhorn303]

I've been thinking about the concept that Shannon is a split personality and imaginary friend of Yasu, and I think it might be the other way around: Shannon is the real person, and Yasu is the imaginary personality she came up with.

The popular idea is that Shannon represents the imaginary ideal servant, who Yasu created so that he could look up to her. But if she had problems with insecurity, it might make more sense to imagine a worse servant who looks up to her, than a better servant they can look up to. People deal with insecurity by feeling better than others, not worse than others. And if Shannon was bullied, she might have created the imaginary Yasu to be bullied in her place, displacing all of her pain onto another person so it's "not happening to her."

After Yasu became a witch, Shannon was left as a human. But it makes more sense for the real person Shannon to continue as the real person Shannon, than for the real person Yasu to walk up to Natsuhi and say, "My name is Shannon. You say my name is Yasu? I've never heard of anyone named that..." and continue without any problems.

Originally Posted by oompa loompa

Wait.. wait wait wait..

Spoiler for world of episode 7:

In Lions world, where the murders supposedly happen again.

If Lion exists, Beatrice does not, right?
So... If Beatrice doesn't exist, who told the siblings about the bomb switch? I can hardly see them finding out in any other way, unless there is another Beatrice like person. Unless, things turn out differently in this world, and the police do just find the culprit later?

It's never said whether or not the bomb actually goes off in that world.

[AuraTwilight]

Except Shannon/Yasu doesn't have split personalities, and no one acknowledges Shannon's existence but Yasu in any meaningful way.

What, so everyone bullied a "Yasu" that only Shannon could see? Gimme a break. Even if Shannon wasn't a two-dimensional character it'd still be unbelievable.

Also, it's most likely that Yasu's name is Sayo Yasuda, so derp.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by einhorn303

It's never said whether or not the bomb actually goes off in that world.

The only reason Kryie went on her killing spree was because there was a bomb to dispose of all the evidence. With no one to shut off the bomb that was to blow up on 12:00 A.M. of the first day, then there wouldn't be any murders to occur during Oct. 5, thus the spree could only occur it Beato's worlds.

Its when Bern implies that it also happens in Lion's world that her lies really do become shit. The spree alone is a stretch.

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Except Shannon/Yasu doesn't have split personalities, and no one acknowledges Shannon's existence but Yasu in any meaningful way.

What, so everyone bullied a "Yasu" that only Shannon could see? Gimme a break. Even if Shannon wasn't a two-dimensional character it'd still be unbelievable.

Also, it's most likely that Yasu's name is Sayo Yasuda, so derp.

The thing is that whole theater-going scene with Yasu can't be an objective truth of what happened. It's how Shannon/Yasu experienced it subjectively. Because it shows actual witches, magical trips to Golden Lands, and other fantastical things, it clearly has much of Shannon/Yasu's own delusions mixed in.

The other maids could have actually been bullying Shannon, and she just imagined that they were bullying Yasu. Just as Yasu/Shannon imagined she was talking to a real witch, and used actual magic to move keys.

Another example of how theater-going reveals people subjective experiences, and not objective reality, is that flash of a red scene in which someone says Kinzo came up with the idea of stealing the gold. It's quite possible that Kinzo first wanted to steal the gold in objective reality, but in his subjective experience he changed it to feel better about himself. Sort of like when people get into a car crash, and it's really their fault, but they convince themselves it's the other guys fault.

[Jan-Poo]

I do think that everyone dies in Lion's world anyway.

It's the whole bomb and killer spree stuff that is false.


@einhorn, there is one good reason as to why Shannon is definitely a mask and not the real person.
Shannon is stupid. Being dimwitted is part of the character that has been constructed about her.

You can fake to be stupid if you are intelligent.
But you cannot fake to be intelligent if you are stupid.

[AuraTwilight]

The thing is that whole theater-going scene with Yasu can't be an objective truth of what happened. It's how Shannon/Yasu experienced it subjectively. Because it shows actual witches, magical trips to Golden Lands, and other fantastical things, it clearly has much of Shannon/Yasu's own delusions mixed in.

Yes, but those delusions are paper-thin in what they mean; they're to demonstrate that Will understands her, not obfuscate the details. The fact of the matter is that until the first "world modification", Shannon is never meaningfully acknowledged by anyone except Yasu, and she just sort of exists in the backround to give Yasu encouragement whenever she needs it. That, and people talk to Yasu when Shannon isn't there.

So the idea is crap, get over it.

Another example of how theater-going reveals people subjective experiences, and not objective reality, is that flash of a red scene in which someone says Kinzo came up with the idea of stealing the gold. It's quite possible that Kinzo first wanted to steal the gold in objective reality, but in his subjective experience he changed it to feel better about himself. Sort of like when people get into a car crash, and it's really their fault, but they convince themselves it's the other guys fault.

Haha, wow, you did not get that Red scene at all, if you think it was insinuating that Kinzo wanted to steal the gold.

The thing about the Theatergoing Authority that Will uses is that it doesn't allow the person being interviewed to lie. They can give subjective experiences they genuinely believe, like Maria's magical beliefs, but they can't deliberately lie.

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

The only reason Kryie went on her killing spree was because there was a bomb to dispose of all the evidence. With no one to shut off the bomb that was to blow up on 12:00 A.M. of the first day, then there wouldn't be any murders to occur during Oct. 5, thus the spree could only occur it Beato's worlds.

Its when Bern implies that it also happens in Lion's world that her lies really do become shit. The spree alone is a stretch.

Your true that there probably had to be some other way of them knowing about the bomb. But I think you might be surrendering too easily in trying to find alternate explanations. Some possibilities are:

1. Kinzo put a warning sign on the clock, just in case someone flipped the switch by accident. From this, the siblings knew about the bomb.
2. Kinzo told one of the servants (maybe Genji) to go to the chapel VIP room and wait there, just in case someone really did solve the riddle, and congratulate/explain things to them. From this, the siblings knew about the bomb.
3. Kyrie and Rudolf were planning to flee the country, so there wasn't any need to remove the evidence. They did have that cash card that wouldn't leave any traces back to them.
4. Kyrie and Rudolf were intrigued by the strange and ominous switch in the grandfather clock. Following the wires sticking out of it, they found the stockpile of explosives and were able to figure out that it was an activation switch. If they know a lot about guns, it's not too huge of a stretch to imagine they also know about explosives. From this, they knew about the bomb.
5. Kyrie and Rudolf weren't acting rationally. They just snapped for some reason.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

@einhorn, there is one good reason as to why Shannon is definitely a mask and not the real person.
Shannon is stupid. Being dimwitted is part of the character that has been constructed about her.

You can fake to be stupid if you are intelligent.
But you cannot fake to be intelligent if you are stupid.

I'm not sure Shannon can be too stupid if she was able to seriously and intellectually discuss mystery novels with Battler.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The thing about the Theatergoing Authority that Will uses is that it doesn't allow the person being interviewed to lie. They can give subjective experiences they genuinely believe, like Maria's magical beliefs, but they can't deliberately lie.

I interpret it the same way. Although both of us are, after all, interpreting what "Theatergoing Authority" means. I don't believe there's much in the TIPS or elsewhere that explicitly describes its mechanics.

[AuraTwilight]

Bern heavily implies the mechanics of the Theatergoing Authority. Besides, what the hell would it DO aside from fancy flashback effects if characters could lie to his face, and if it's just flashy effects, why the hell does authorizing it's use require a huge Senate vote to validate it?

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by einhorn303

1. Kinzo put a warning sign on the clock, just in case someone flipped the switch by accident. From this, the siblings knew about the bomb.

2. Kinzo told one of the servants (maybe Genji) to go to the chapel VIP room and wait there, just in case someone really did solve the riddle, and congratulate/explain things to them. From this, the siblings knew about the bomb.

Kinzo had no confidence in the idea that the family would solve the Epitaph. Bern claims that he was just humoring them.

3. Kyrie and Rudolf, so there wasn't any need to remove the evidence. They did have that cash card that wouldn't leave any traces back to them.

They got the cash card off of Eva while she was knocked out. They shot Hideyoshi prior to this, and if they shot all the kids, then it really becomes suspicious. It would have been Eva v.s. Kryie & Rudolf if the bomb hadn't gone...and, lets face it, Eva had more of a chance.

4. Kyrie and Rudolf were intrigued by the strange and ominous switch in the grandfather clock. Following the wires sticking out of it, they found the stockpile of explosives and were able to figure out that it was an activation switch. If they know a lot about guns, it's not too huge of a stretch to imagine they also know about explosives. From this, they knew about the bomb.

I thought that the wires were hidden in the wall and led down to the explosives. But, that's not the point. They had a few minutes to find the explosives, and they didn't know if the bomb was even armed (since, well, it didn't blow up just yet.)

5. Kyrie and Rudolf weren't acting rationally. They just snapped for some reason.

'Triggers' are all over the place in each game. They only happen once, and are randomly generated. But it only effected one person.

The only thing I could buy is that the bomb wasn't armed at all, and #4 occurred. It still wouldn't make much sense because the murders of the adults would have had to occurred by then. Even moreso, how would they know when it exploded?

[Jan-Poo]

I'm not sure Shannon can be too stupid if she was able to seriously and intellectually discuss mystery novels with Battler.

We've never seen anything particularly intelligent from her discussion with Battler. What makes you think that what we haven't seen was different?

1. Kinzo put a warning sign on the clock, just in case someone flipped the switch by accident. From this, the siblings knew about the bomb.
2. Kinzo told one of the servants (maybe Genji) to go to the chapel VIP room and wait there, just in case someone really did solve the riddle, and congratulate/explain things to them. From this, the siblings knew about the bomb.
3. Kyrie and Rudolf, so there wasn't any need to remove the evidence. They did have that cash card that wouldn't leave any traces back to them.
4. Kyrie and Rudolf were intrigued by the strange and ominous switch in the grandfather clock. Following the wires sticking out of it, they found the stockpile of explosives and were able to figure out that it was an activation switch. If they know a lot about guns, it's not too huge of a stretch to imagine they also know about explosives. From this, they knew about the bomb.
5. Kyrie and Rudolf weren't acting rationally. They just snapped for some reason.

1) Let's be serious
2) Why Genji would tell them about the bomb?
3) The cash card isn't supposed to exist in Lion's world
4) Let's be serious
5) This is exactly the kind of heartless development that people would hate to see.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

5) This is exactly the kind of heartless development that people would hate to see.

...Well.

You, sir, have insulted the entirety of EP3.

[einhorn303]

I meant to write "3. Kyrie and Rudolf were planning to flee the country, so there wasn't any need to remove the evidence. They did have that cash card that wouldn't leave any traces back to them" in my previous post, but accidentally deleted part of it. Sorry if that confused anyone.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

We've never seen anything particularly intelligent from her discussion with Battler. What makes you think that what we haven't seen was different?

1) Let's be serious
2) Why Genji would tell them about the bomb?
3) The cash card isn't supposed to exist in Lion's world
4) Let's be serious
5) This is exactly the kind of heartless development that people would hate to see.

1) Personally, if I had a switch that would blow up everything and I was inviting people into the room with that switch, I'd put some sort of warning near the switch. Also, *.
2) Why would Beatrice tell them about the bomb? Possibly Genji tells them about it just in case someone accidentally flipped it, out of caution.
3) The cash card might have existed in Lion's world. There are lots of possible reasons for it existing. If it didn't, maybe they just wanted to take 500 pounds or so of gold ingots. That wouldn't be too hard to move onto a boat. If they carried 20 pounds each up the stairs, so 25 trips up the stairs, then pushed it the rest in 100-150 pound loads via wheelbarrow to make it go faster to the boat...they could easily do that in a few hours, then jet before the bomb went off. They'd have to wait until the typhoon ended, of course. Or they could have hid the gold in Kuwadorian, after pushing two wheelbarrows (one for each of them) down into the VIP room to make it go faster.
4) We don't know anything about the wires, or whether they're visible, or lead anywhere. It could be just that convenient. Also, *.
4. *.

* I don't think "Let's be serious" or "People would hate to see this" are valid refutations of a possibility.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Bern heavily implies the mechanics of the Theatergoing Authority. Besides, what the hell would it DO aside from fancy flashback effects if characters could lie to his face, and if it's just flashy effects, why the hell does authorizing it's use require a huge Senate vote to validate it?

So Bern is heavily implying something. But you believe that Bern is lying about the entire Tea Party. Do you trust Bern, or not?

Still, I interpret Theatergoing Authority the same way as you. I know that the bullying servants use the name "Yasu" and not "Shannon," but that whole theater-going experience clearly has a large dose of Yasu/Shannon's delusions.. They could have been bullying her and calling her "Sayo/Shannon," but she just imagined/interpreted it as "Yasu".

It's also possible Yasu is Shannon's real "actual name," not her Honored Name, but she hated it. Once the older servants quit, she went by Sayo. The Ushiromiya's would only call her Shannon either way, and Genji and Kumasawa both call her Shannon, so no one would notice a change in her "actual name" from Yasu to Sayo. Maybe there's some subtlety in Japanese characters here that I can't see that makes this impossible.