Nanoha StrikerS - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by TheShinySword

not trolling just fact stating. Though I have no doubt it'll just be as ambiguous as 7arc normally is.

Er...
How speculating about the end of the movie could be considered as "fact stating"?

We have serious problems here

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[TheShinySword]

Originally Posted by BPHaru

Er...
How speculating about the end of the movie could be considered as "fact stating"?

We have serious problems here

Cuídate y sigue sonriendo

Allow me to quote myself

And besides the new movie's a remake of season 1 for all we know it'll end in a big smooch between Yuuno and Nanoha.

Note the for all we know
The fact stated: We do not in any way know what will happen relationship wise in the new movie.
I was not speculating in the least. Speculating would imply I believed it will happen.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by TheShinySword

Note the for all we know
The fact stated: We do not in any way know what will happen relationship wise in the new movie.
I was not speculating in the least. Speculating would imply I believed it will happen.

Are you sure you quoted the right text? I see you contradicting yourself.

Cuídate y sigue sonriendo

[TheShinySword]

Originally Posted by BPHaru

Are you sure you quoted the right text? I see you contradicting yourself.

Cuídate y sigue sonriendo

prove it. please.

[Laith]

Can you stop? Now you are antagonizing withour a "serious" reason. I mean this is the Strikers thread not the flame war one

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Laith

Can you stop? Now you are antagonizing withour a "serious" reason.

Good timing Laith, thanks for your intervention.

Sending PMs now...

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[Keroko]

Originally Posted by BPHaru

I think their relationship was an important part of what pretended to be the plot of this series, otherwise you could as well remove Fate from Nanoha's life and see if everything with Vivio would have concluded as it did in StrikerS. Probably she would have be adopted for marvelous new characters now (GO! TEH CAST of 50 characters!!!11!), but that's a matter of speculations and personal opinions, so I think I don't have nothing more to add about this issue.

Removing Fate from Nanoha's life is extreme, I never said we'd have to remove Fate entirely.

However, if we remove any NanoFate innuendo (by, let's say, placing Fate in a separate room) then yes, all that happened between Nanoha and Vivio would have concluded as it did in StrikerS. Why? Because as I said before: Fate added nothing to the Nanoha/Vivio plot, and only served to take up screentime that should have been used to display issues that were addressed during the final battle.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Keroko

However, if we remove any NanoFate innuendo (by, let's say, placing Fate in a separate room) then yes, all that happened between Nanoha and Vivio would have concluded as it did in StrikerS. Why? Because as I said before: Fate added nothing to the Nanoha/Vivio plot, and only served to take up screentime that should have been used to display issues that were addressed during the final battle.

As I said those are just speculation, because we'll never know "What would have happened if...". But in your hypothetical scenario I believe there is a high chance of Nanoha don't taking the same crucial decision that defined their future, because let's don't forget that Fate was a very important emotional support and was always together with her, she was a example to Nanoha as a mother, and don't forget their promise before they parted to the final mission, that was meaningful. I don't think that you can keep all those elements in the series and "remove NanoFate" while trying to reach the same ending, but it's just my opinion, as I said we'll never know what would have happened if...

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[Keroko]

Your theory depends on bucketloads of more hypothetical scenarios, theories, and tiny lines stretched to impossible sizes (if I were to do that too, NanoVita would be damn near canon) then mine. However, such situations have nothing to do with the actual editorial scenario, as you're invoking real life psychiatry here (which leaves me to wonder why you're leaving the flaws I've pointed out untouched).

From an editorial standpoint, you can take out all the NanoFate happy family scenes, and still have Nanoha take the choices she made in the anime. If we replace said scenes with actual development in Nanoha's road through parentage, we only strengthen said choices.

What did Fate, actively, contribute to the Nanoha/Vivio scenario? The answer is nothing that couldn't have been done better and more in line with the Nanoha/Vivio plot. As you said, she was an example for Nanoha as a mother, even though we only got to see this in one scene. But does she need to be in the same room and in the same bed to do so? The answer is no. By focusing on the other aspect StrikerS disregarded in the anime, Fate's parentage of Erio and Caro, you would receive two things: One, you'd have the aforementioned 'example as a mother' and two, you'd receive character development for the Fate/Erio/Caro scenario.

Your scenario, or rather StrikerS scenario, only tries to develop one scenario, and as I explained before did so in a flawed way. Nanoha does not get a chance to display the insecurities the final battle tells us she experienced. My scenario develops two scenarios at the same time, allowing for scenes of Nanoha to feel insecure as a mother and turn to Fate for support, while at the same time we develop the Fate/Erio/Caro scenario, thus leaving us more involved with their story and strengthen the anime overall.

Also, as your scenario filled with happy family goes at the cost of the insecure Nanoha, it weakens the Nanoha/Vivio plot.

Your scenario leaves one plot abandoned and weakens the other, while My scenario only strengthens two plots. You don't even need to get rid of NanoFate at all, you can still have NanoFate by having Fate act as a councilor. Imagine the lovely drama scenes of Nanoha feeling like breaking down and Fate offering council. Do give me one solid reason why the NanoFateVivio happy family scenario is the right one?

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Keroko

My scenario strengthens two plots, your scenario leaves one plot abandoned and weakens the other. Do give me one solid reason why the NanoFateVivio happy family scenario is the right one?

The series had enough length to develop Caro, Erio and all the forwards as well if you they wanted to do it, but it was wasted in more pointless characters (in my opinion Caro and Erio were a complete fail as I said previously, they took the wrong concepts for the "replacements of the old loli cast"), and filler episodes, so Happy Family time and more time with Fate caro and Erio are not mutually exclusive options.
Also you may as well rewrite the whole season and include both of them, there is no problem with that, but the way the series is now worked fine for me, I didn't want to have characters that no one likes wasting more screentime when the series is lacking of something as basic as action.

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[Keroko]

Originally Posted by BPHaru

I didn't want to have characters that no one likes wasting more screentime

Considering there are plenty of people that like them, I find this statement gross generalization of your own opinion, and very mis informative.

Like I said before plenty of times, I am aware of the wasted screentime. I'm an editor. It's my job to look at videos and make sure I don't waste screentime. However, its also my job to pick out those scenes that waste screentime and insert scenes that don't.

In the case of Erio and Caro, many of the scenes with Erio and Caro, particularly in the later episodes, become wasted because they had a lack of screentime in the earlier part. The audience doesn't feel connected to them, so their battles are boring in comparison to the battles of characters they do feel connected to. By inserting the Fate/Erio/Caro scenes, we make those scenes more tensional, as the audience is now more involved with those characters. This means that the screentime of Erio and Caro is no longer 'wasted' but 'properly used'

Back to the original topic, while the attempt at dodging my question is dully noted, you still have not answered my question. Why is the flawed development of one scenario better then the proper development of two?

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Considering there are plenty of people that like them, I find this statement gross generalization of your own opinion, and very mis informative.

It's not a generalization of my opinion and it's not mis informative either, you just need to look at the popularity polls. If we compare Nanoha and Fate with Caro and Erio and put them into a chart we would have in the best case something like this:

Erio Mondial: 3,52%
Caro Ru Lushe: 6,39%
Nanoha Takamachi: 41,18%
Fate Testarossa: 48,89%

(Not exclusive, those who like Erio may like Caro as well)

Taking the poll from this board would be a bad idea since this is a very closed community and we are not Japan, so I took a representative sample of works (5767) made by Japanese fans, and extrapolate that to the whole fanbase. This is just an estimation, but the numbers of the real polls should be something similar to this.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Back to the original topic, while the attempt at dodging my question is dully noted, you still have not answered my question. Why is the flawed development of one scenario better then the proper development of two?

It's not better, is worst. That's simple logic, I didn't even need to think the answer

I said that the series was long enough to develop all the forwards if they wanted as well, but they wasted whole episodes with filler, training, and useless characters. They gave priority to Nanoha and Fate, and that's logic too because they are the most popular characters, but that doesn't means that they couldn't eliminate a random filler episode and gave the forwards some character development, and don't have nothing against that.

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[TheShinySword]

Originally Posted by BPHaru

I said that the series was long enough to develop all the forwards if they wanted as well, but they wasted whole episodes with filler, training, and useless characters. They gave priority to Nanoha and Fate, and that's logic too because they are the most popular characters, but that doesn't means that they couldn't eliminate a random filler episode and gave the forwards some character development, and don't have nothing against that.

Actually they didn't give Fate priority at all. She didn't even have her own plot line. Subaru got priority and Tia a bit of it. Nanoha being the title character got her story line but Fate had none.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by BPHaru

It's not a generalization of my opinion and it's not mis informative either, you just need to look at the popularity polls. If we compare Nanoha and Fate with Caro and Erio and put them into a chart we would have in the best case something like this:

Characters scoring low on favourite character polls does not mean people hate those characters. It just means they like other characters better. I mean, I voted Nanoha on our poll, but I like Erio and Caro. If your entire statement of people disliking characters hangs in the balance of something as inaccurate as favorite character polls, then I don't even need to try and tell you how flawed your argument is.

Originally Posted by BPHaru

It's not better, is worst. That's simple logic, I didn't even need to think the answer

So let me get this straight, I specifically said that you wouldn't lose NanoFate, that there would be plenty of options and scenes for NanoFate, and that the story would be off for the better, but for the sole reason that Nanoha and Fate wouldn't be a mama-pair you decide to screw over the rest of the story?

Originally Posted by BPHaru

I said that the series was long enough to develop all the forwards if they wanted as well, but they wasted whole episodes with filler, training, and useless characters. They gave priority to Nanoha and Fate, and that's logic too because they are the most popular characters, but that doesn't means that they couldn't eliminate a random filler episode and gave the forwards some character development, and don't have nothing against that.

Yes, but developing Erio and Caro would mean getting Fate involved, which is something you are vehemently protesting against.

Originally Posted by TheShinySword

Actually they didn't give Fate priority at all. She didn't even have her own plot line. Subaru got priority and Tia a bit of it. Nanoha being the title character got her story line but Fate had none.

And as the final battle showed, Fate/Erio/Caro was supposed to be her plot line. But it got dumped in favor of... guess what? NanoFate.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by TheShinySword

Actually they didn't give Fate priority at all. She didn't even have her own plot line. Subaru got priority and Tia a bit of it. Nanoha being the title character got her story line but Fate had none.

Yes, I think that was one of the worst mistakes of this season, since she's the character that the people most wanted to see she was a bit involved in everything, and she even has more screen time than Nanoha and any other character in some of the episodes, but that was a bad idea, being the counterpart of Nanoha if they wanted to keep both of their characters in screen it would be better if they gave them something to do, that's one of the reasons why I said that the whole basis of this third season is worng.

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[TheShinySword]

Originally Posted by BPHaru

Yes, I think that was one of the worst mistakes of this season, since she's the character that the people most wanted to see she was a bit involved in everything, and she even has more screen time than Nanoha and any other character in some of the episodes, but that was a bad idea, being the counterpart of Nanoha if they wanted to keep both of their characters in screen it would be better if they gave them something to do, that's one of the reasons why I said that the whole basis of this third season is worng.

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Which is why having an Erio/Caro/Fate plotline would have been the wiser move by 7arc. It's the only logical plotline that would tie in to the others, give Erio and Caro proper development AND give Fate much more screen time (and as Keroko stated that scene implies that would have been the end of a fufilling plot. How much more rewarding would that scene have been if we'd seen Fate looking after them, protecting them then letting them return the favor). The popularity doesn't matter they're unpopular because 7arc didn't give anyone a chance to actually like them had 7arc chosen this path those two might have stood a chance.

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by TheShinySword

The popularity doesn't matter they're unpopular because 7arc didn't give anyone a chance to actually like them had 7arc chosen this path those two might have stood a chance.

Yeah, it's their fault, in first place they shouldn't have introduced this kind of character in the "main cast" if they didn't plan to develop them, but the popularity definitely matters, since it's directly proportional to the incoming of this franchise. This is business, etc.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Characters scoring low on favourite character polls does not mean people hate those characters. It just means they like other characters better. I mean, I voted Nanoha on our poll, but I like Erio and Caro. If your entire statement of people disliking characters hangs in the balance of something as inaccurate as favorite character polls, then I don't even need to try and tell you how flawed your argument is.

No, I extrapolated the the data from the works of the Japanese fans, so the results are not exclusive. For example if an artist made a Nanoha Fanart, and then a Erio Fanart, I count for both. If another author made a single Caro x Erio fanart, is one point to each one, that's how it works.

I didn't say that Erio and Caro were hated by all of the people who prefer Nanoha and Fate rather than them, but is clear that they prefer the other characters, so this way the Studio knows what the fans want to see and how to use their screen time.

Originally Posted by Keroko

So let me get this straight, I specifically said that you wouldn't lose NanoFate, that there would be plenty of options and scenes for NanoFate, and that the story would be off for the better, but for the sole reason that Nanoha and Fate wouldn't be a mama-pair you decide to screw over the rest of the story?

You said to have them in separate rooms and everything, I obviously would prefer the happy family scenario rather than something else.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Yes, but developing Erio and Caro would mean getting Fate involved, which is something you are vehemently protesting against.

Why I would mind? I don't mind as long as you don't remove any of the existent NanoFate, I said that there is plenty of screen time to do whatever you want if you do this series well

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[Keroko]

Originally Posted by BPHaru

No, I extrapolated the the data from the works of the Japanese fans, so the results are not exclusive. For example if an artist made a Nanoha Fanart, and then a Erio Fanart, I count for both. If another author made a single Caro x Erio fanart, is one point to each one, that's how it works.

I didn't say that Erio and Caro were hated by all of the people who prefer Nanoha and Fate rather than them, but is clear that they prefer the other characters, so this way the Studio knows what the fans want to see and how to use their screen time.

Counting fanart? That's... arguably even worse, considering Nanoha and Fate have, what? A four year head start? And as TSS pointed out, with proper development the fans might have been thinking a lot differently. Teana and Subaru received proper development, and their fanart branches are booming.

Originally Posted by BPHaru

You said to have them in separate rooms and everything, I obviously would prefer the happy family scenario rather than something else.

*smacks face* That was just an example of how you can remove NanoFate scenes entirely without completely erasing Fate, which was what you were suggesting. Obviously I'd keep most of the scenes as they are, but I would rewrite the Fate-mama scenario to focus on Erio/Caro rather then Nanoha/Vivio because, as I have explained many times, Fate-mama disrupted the Nanoha/Vivio plot.

I don't mind fanservice, but fanservice that disrupts the plot is something I loathe.

Originally Posted by BPHaru

Why I would mind? I don't mind as long as you don't remove any of the existent NanoFate, I said that there is plenty of screen time to do whatever you want if you do this series well

Once again you're fabulously missing the point I've been trying to make clear. NanoFate was the reason the Fate/Erio/Caro plotline got scrapped. Now obviously, to get this plotline back without contradicting, you'd have to cut down on the NanoFate and focus on the Fate/Erio/Caro. I'll admit that doing both is possible with a bit of tweaking in the allocation of screentime, but that still wouldn't solve the issue of the Nanoha/Vivio plot being run into the ground, not to mention it still doesn't solve the other problems such as Hayate's screentime and proper introduction of the numbers and explanations of Jail's goal.

[Comartemis]

So let me get this straight, I specifically said that you wouldn't lose NanoFate, that there would be plenty of options and scenes for NanoFate, and that the story would be off for the better, but for the sole reason that Nanoha and Fate wouldn't be a mama-pair you decide to screw over the rest of the story?

Give it up Kero. Haru's as bad as ark is when it comes to considering other peoples' opinions, at least insofar as his precious Sacred Pairing is concerned.

You said to have them in separate rooms and everything, I obviously would prefer the happy family scenario rather than something else.

So you can't do NanoFate without having them sleep in the same bed and be a lovey dovey couple?

Let me pose a question to you regarding the character dynamics here, Haru. There is a fic on my old boards called 'A Bridge Over Troubled Waters' which features the NanoFate pairing as Fate pining for Nanoha, who is clueless about Fate's feelings for her, while Hayate stands off to one side and plays matchmaker on Fate's behalf, usually with highly amusing consequences. The author has hinted that Fate is eventually going to get around to confessing her feelings to Nanoha, but for the time being the focus is more on the story and less on the relationship. Now am I understanding correctly that you would pass on such a fic simply because it doesn't have the "Happy Family" relationship?

[BPHaru]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Counting fanart? That's... arguably even worse, considering Nanoha and Fate have, what? A four year head start? And as TSS pointed out, with proper development the fans might have been thinking a lot differently. Teana and Subaru received proper development, and their fanart branches are booming.

Taking the amount of fans who draws as a sample of a fanbase seems pretty representative to me, since the capability of drawing doesn't depend of critical factors in this mater, like age or favorite anime genre.
Nanoha and Fate are in the series from the first season, so you need to start counting there, since the people liked them from that point. Otherwise it would be like saying "It's not fair! Wii sells more than PS3 because its cheaper!" or "XBox 360 only sells more than PS3 because it came out a year before!". Excuses, those are competitive advantages and that's how our market works.

Originally Posted by Keroko

*smacks face* That was just an example of how you can remove NanoFate scenes entirely without completely erasing Fate, which is what you were suggesting. Obviously I'd keep most of the scenes as they are, but I would rewrite the Fate-mama scenario to focuss on Erio/Caro because, as I have explained many times, Fate-mama disrupted the Nanoha/Vivio plot.

I don't mind fanservice, but fanservice that disrupts the plot is something I loathe.

Once again you're fabulously missing the point I've been trying to make clear. NanoFate was the reason the Fate/Erio/Caro plotline got scrapped. Now obviously, to get this plotline back without contradicting, you'd have to cut down on the NanoFate and focuss on the Fate/Erio/Caro.

I insist, you have enough screen time to do both. I will keep thinking that NanoFate plot helped with the Nanoha/Vivio plot, or in the worst case if it was "that bad" for you, you can get something better just by sending Fate to rescue Vivio as well instead of capture a not developed villain, and having a happy family reunion there and another poor fight.

Originally Posted by Comartemis

So you can't do NanoFate without having them sleep in the same bed and be a lovey dovey couple?

Let me pose a question to you regarding the character dynamics here, Haru. There is a fic on my old boards called 'A Bridge Over Troubled Waters' which features the NanoFate pairing as Fate pining for Nanoha, who is clueless about Fate's feelings for her, while Hayate stands off to one side and plays matchmaker on Fate's behalf, usually with highly amusing consequences. The author has hinted that Fate is eventually going to get around to confessing her feelings to Nanoha, but for the time being the focus is more on the story and less on the relationship. Now am I understanding correctly that you would pass on such a fic simply because it doesn't have the "Happy Family" relationship?

Of course I read that kind of fic, in fact AU fics are my favorite kind from this series (since they kind of screwed everything with this season, so is good when the people "fix" the universe). The best fic from this series I have ever read is Providence, which is beyond epic in so many levels! And it almost doesn't resembles so much from the original series (Epic Fantasy FTW!), and it doesn't has too much NanoFate either, but I completely love it.
The fic you mentioned sounds good, but I don't recall it at ff.net. Is posted in another site?

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