Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Archived Discussion

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

To be fair, Hattori is not good at martial art. And he is supprised/ not prepare for the worst when fighting Tatsuya. But he is good at range and ultility magic. Something Tomitsuka is bad at. It's hard to compare two of diferent kinds of magician. It's like comparing an artillery to a tank.

Kirihara is actually back-stabbed by Tatsuya while he was fighting Sayaka


Anyway, i believe: it is too hasty to say he is better than the rest of the scrubs.

Are you sure ?

I'm sure you SKIP reading Tomitsuka x Shippou fight.

And I believe you still don't understand Tomitsuka's armor.

[iCloudz7]

So, with ESight he could have been able to use dispersal mist in one of his internal organs or something? Because if I remember correctly he couldn't use DM in Lina because of parade or something...

[neoinfinity204]

Originally Posted by iCloudz7

So, with ESight he could have been able to use dispersal mist in one of his internal organs or something? Because if I remember correctly he couldn't use DM in Lina because of parade or something...

He tried using mist disperal it doesn't work due to the effects of the psion armor. He couldn't use his magic unless he broke through the armor first as he learned when he started the fight with mist dispersal.

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by iCloudz7

So, with ESight he could have been able to use dispersal mist in one of his internal organs or something? Because if I remember correctly he couldn't use DM in Lina because of parade or something...

Remember: the most effective way to counter his ESight is faking information, not hiding since you can't. -Yakumo.

Since Parade give false information to fool his ESight, he can't target her.
He can target and shoot all the false information bodies, but that's not the target he want.

But Tomitsuka can't give false information, Tatsuya accurately read his magic and information about his armor.
Tomitsuka can only negate magical effects around him, not inside him, not physical effect resulted from magic.

Originally Posted by neoinfinity204

He tried using mist disperal it doesn't work due to the effects of the psion armor. He couldn't use his magic unless he broke through the armor first as he learned when he started the fight with mist dispersal.

"Yet, so long as Tatsuya still held onto the handicap of not utilizing attacks through the Idea, then he was a deficient Magician who could not use magic that directly influenced physical phenomena."

He fought Tomitsuka with handicap.
He targeted his armor, not Tomitsuka himself.
Just like: High Explosive round targets the tank's armor, Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot round target what's inside the tank.
Big differences.

[nacer666]

He was just experimenting with Tomitsuka's armor.He could finish the fight right away with Far Strike if he wanted to.

[pampz21]

Yea pretty much Tatsuya wanted to drag the fight so it wouldnt hurt Tomitsuka's pride....and alot of people are watching afterall...if Erika was there shes probably Yandering Tatsuya right now...is the nxt ch Tatsuya's bday celebration thats not in the web novel???

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

Then enlighten me.

If you try to say that Tomitsuka can't be surprised or back-stabbed, it is true.
It is relevant when we judge their strength in real combat where winning is all that matter.

However, it is irrelevant when we judge Hattori and Kirihara in a duel with rules.
If they were prepared and utilized their full-potential, you can't say that Tomitsuka is better.

That's why I ask you again

You read Tomitsuka vs Shippou duel ?

For a spell like Million Edge that used magic to continuously alter phenomena in order to convert plain paper into blades dancing in the wind, this was practically its nemesis.

Tomitsuka’s entire body flashed with an explosive psion light. Amid that blinding light, the paper blades faded back to being normal paper. All 80,000 paper squares lost their power to float in mid-air before returning to true paper snowflakes and falling to the ground.

That paper become Blades, you know.
I repeat 80.000 Blades.

I will give you a good example if you can't imagine million edge.

Byakuya Kuchiki's Senbonzakura. ( Bleach )

You understand how dangerous is million edge ?

[hakazee]

That's why I'm lazy to talk with you.
You doesn't read entire novel completely.

Yeah forget it.


Ooh ohh million edge. Weak magic weak magic.

Originally Posted by bietchie11

Remember.
This IS paper.
It is due to the magic that it is transformed into blades.
But when the magic is disappeared, they are reverted back to the harmless pieces of paper: low velocity + light weight + high wind-resistance = no kinetic energy.
(p/s: want some evident? Here you are:
"Amid that blinding light, the paper blades faded back to being normal paper. All 80,000 paper squares lost their magic power to float in mid-air before returning to true paper snowflakes and falling to the ground. ")

Don't go "Bleach" on me. THIS IS SPART... i mean MAHOUKA!!!
Million Edge + Senbonsomethingwhateverbro is only dangerous when magic fuels it.
I think you are under misconception that his armor blocked the kinetic power of Million Edge. It didn't, it just nullified the magic.

If Takuma, instead of using paper, used like 7.62x51mm and accelerated it to 1000 m/s, Tomitsuka will die even when the magic is gone.
That is not the case with paper. Has anyone kill people with pieces of paper yet?

Oh yes yes
Million Edge is easy to defend. Even Hattori and Kirihara can do it.

Even Tomitsuka just standing like that and nothing happen to him.



Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that's paper.
Paper can't hurt anyone.

Thank you.

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by hakazee

That's why I'm lazy to talk with you.
You doesn't read entire novel completely.
Yeah forget it.
Ooh ohh million edge. Weak magic weak magic.
Oh yes yes
Million Edge is easy to defend. Even Hattori and Kirihara can do it.
Even Tomitsuka just standing like that and nothing happen to him.
Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that's paper.
Paper can't hurt anyone.
Thank you.

If :Tomitsuka blocked Million Edge that no one else ( but Tatsuya) can do= he is better than everyone.
Then: Hattori shoot a barrage of long range magic, camouflage his teammate and so on-something Tomitsuka can't do, then does that make Hattori better than Tomitsuka?

He is good at anti-magic (still worse than Tatsuya though) and decent at martial art.
But does that mean he is a better magican overall, compared to others like his sempai Sawaki?
I don't think so. He is better than everyone else at something but worse at something else. That's what i'm trying to say.

p/s: If Tatsuya only had Gram Demolition in his hand, no brain, no cool, no Decompose, no MB, no ES, you gotta admit that he would be just not as cool as he is now.
Anti-magic ability alone doesn't make people awesome IMO.

p/s2: for the record, i do read this chapter completely. Not that saying it will change anything.

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

If :Tomitsuka blocked Million Edge that no one else ( but Tatsuya) can do= he is better than everyone.
Then: Hattori shoot a barrage of long range magic, camouflage his teammate and so on-something Tomitsuka can't do, then does that make Hattori better than Tomitsuka?

He is good at anti-magic (still worse than Tatsuya though) and decent at martial art.
But does that mean he is a better magican overall, compared to others like his sempai Sawaki?

I don't think so. He is better than everyone else at something but worse at something else. That's what i'm trying to say.

I think we are talking about DUEL ?

At first you say tatsuya do this... do that... When tats has duel with hattori or when he fight Kirihara. And he do nothing when tats duel with tomitsuka.


Now I don't understand what you're talking about.

An about Million edge.

Never seen anyone use paper to kill enemy ?


Shippou family did.


Chapter 14

One of the trump cards of the Shippou Family, “Million Edge”. A magic that used Herd Control to manipulate over a million pieces of paper that turned into sharp blades to eviscerate the foe.



Please check.

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by hakazee

An about Million edge.
Never seen anyone use paper to kill enemy ?
Shippou family did.
Chapter 14
One of the trump cards of the Shippou Family, “Million Edge”. A magic that used Herd Control to manipulate over a million pieces of paper that turned into sharp blades to eviscerate the foe.
Please check.

What i mean is: in real life, do you see anyone use paper to kill people?
Because when losing magic power, real life knowledge can apply.
I feel it stupid that you can control objects and you choose paper as medium of choice. Needles would be a better choice to say the least.

Originally Posted by hakazee

Tomitsuka can block from all direction and you disagree. Am I right ?

Tomitsuka block it from all direction. Yes.
I'm not sure if i ever discussed that.

Originally Posted by hakazee

I say Million Edge is deadly and you disagree.
Am I right ?

Yes and no
M-16 is deadly, but not when it's empty.
When the magic did not ever happens and its affect does not applies, how can you say it is deadly?

Tomitsuka took the magic power away from Tomitsuka's Million Edge just like he is shot by an empty M-16.
So, in a sense, he defeats the magic. Awesome.

In another sense, he doesn't have sufficient power to guard himself if the physical power of that spell is on full affect.
Like i said, paper can not retain kinetic power for long so it loses it physical strength the moment it loses its magical power.
If someone use something like steel ball instead of paper, the attack,when the magic power is nullified, is just like an out-of-ammo M-16 but with all the shot fired at the target already.

This won't happen to someone like Tatsuya who can use range Gram, since he stops it dead cold before it even exists. No kinetic power ever accumulated. Tatsuya destroys the M-16 itself!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by hakazee

I think we are talking about DUEL ?
At first you say tatsuya do this... do that... When tats has duel with hattori or when he fight Kirihara. And he do nothing when tats duel with tomitsuka.
Now I don't understand what you're talking about.

And I actually don't really care about the duel itself. But what the results of the duel can tell us?
Aren't you thinking Hattori and Kirihara is bad simply because he loses to Tatsuya fast?
And i said this and that to tell you that the situation do not favor them and the results don't reflect full scope of their usefulness?

(About result:
No one win against Tatsuya. And time is not a reliable measuring stick anyway since the chance that Tatsuya feels like dragging the duel on. I mean :he fired "Mist Dispersal" at the very first move!! You bet he experienced stuffs!!

About unfavored stitutation:
Tomitsuka: totally aware and prepared for Tatsuya's awesomeness=brought out 100% his power. Tatsuya followed "no martial art allowed" rules.
Hattori and Hattori: they know nothing about Tatsuya and don't have any counter-measure. They didn't even manage to bring 100% of their power since Kirihara is back-stabbed and Hattori is too surprised to do anything.)

OK, then let talk about the duel:
When i said he is good at anti-magic aka. "Anti-mage" aka.Magina aka. "Anti-fun" (get the joke?), i assume he can win most of the magicians at close and confined place like practice rooms.
Hattori vs Tomitsuka: Hattori will probably lose.
Kirihara vs Tomitsuka: Kirihara might have the change to win since he is good at martial arts and he has a sword.

If it is an out-door battle, 50-50: It all comes down to one side tries to run and casts range magic to create natural phenomenon to attack him indirectly, other side rushes in and does his martial art.
"cast range magic to create natural phenomenon" for example: accelerate heavy objects to create "bullets", transfer magic power into kinetic power. Heavy objects, not paper.
Masaki did the same thing in 9-school since his magic interferes directly with human organs' water and thus deadly.

Real battles: anything could happen.
May be other magicians got "supprised m*therf*cker" and die for all i know . Maybe Tomitsuka got out-played in martial arts department or be killed by any other forms of physical attack.
Or in large scale battle, Tomitsuka is just ignored since his magics don't have AoE effect (his armor is individually and his magic is short-range...)=he doesn't have significant role. Hattori on the other hand, gets full attention from the opponents(good thing isn't it? )
---------------------------
To sum up, using RPG as an analogy, Tomitsuka's class would be an anti-mage specialized assassin.
He is good at anti-magic but he doesn't want to be far away from mages when they cast magic.
He has a good gap-closer in form of "Marionette" to complement his close-range weakness.

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

I said: in real life, do you see anyone use paper to kill people?
Because when losing magic power, real life knowledge can apply.

I say Million Edge is deadly and you disagree. Am I right ?
Tomitsuka can block from all direction and you disagree. Am I right ?

Originally Posted by bietchie11

I actually don't really care about the duel itself. But what meaning behind the results of the duel.

OK, then let talk about the duel:
When i said he is good at anti-magic aka. "Anti-mage" aka.Magina aka. "Anti-fun" (get the joke?), i assume he can win most of the magicians at close and confined place like arena.
Hattori vs Tomitsuka: Hattori will probably lose.
Kirihara vs Tomitsuka: Kirihara might have the change to win since he is good at martial arts and he has a sword.

Fair enough.
Then let's forget about this duel topic or who's stronger topic.
Even though I still think you're Subjective.

[pampz21]

Lets not talk about shippou or his million edge...it dpends on the user and shippou is too inexperienced to use it anyway...
I just wanna know if the epilouge is really the bday celebration of Tatsuya on shiziku's house?

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by pampz21

Lets not talk about shippou or his million edge...it dpends on the user and shippou is too inexperienced to use it anyway...
I just wanna know if the epilouge is really the bday celebration of Tatsuya on shiziku's house?

We don't know. Sadly.
What do you think that gonna happens if it is true?

I don't even know what to expect.

[azziz]

probably foreshawing about next novel plot-9sc.
for shizuku birthday party and revelation about informations she brought bak from unsa,we'll have to wait vol.13,i think.

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

Yes and no
M-16 is deadly, but not when it's empty.
But when the magic did not ever happens and its affect does not applies, how can you say it is deadly?

Tomitsuka took the magic power away from Tomitsuka's Million Edge just like he is shot by an empty M-16.
So, in a sense, he defeats the magic. Awesome.

In another sense, he doesn't have sufficient power to guard himself if the physical power of that spell is on full affect.
Like i said, paper can not retain kinetic power for long so it loses it physical strength the moment it loses its magical power.
If someone use something like steel ball instead of paper, the attack,when the magic power is nullified, is just like an out-of-ammo M-16 but with all the shot fired at the target already.

This won't happen to someone like Tatsuya who can use range Gram, since he stops it dead cold before it even exists. No kinetic power ever accumulated. Tatsuya destroys the M-16 itself!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Yep but Shippou Family use Papers.
Chapter 14 stated that clearly.

Originally Posted by bietchie11

"cast range magic to create natural phenomenon" for example: accelerate heavy objects to create "bullets", transfer magic power into kinetic power. Heavy objects, not paper.
Masaki did the same thing in 9-school since his magic interferes directly with human organs' water and thus deadly.

Masaki ? Air bullets. ? Shippou use air bullets. Tomitsuka's armor block it.


"
A continuous chain of sixteen compressed air bullets, far surpassing the limits laid down by the rules, came swarming towards Tatsuya.
The Counter Magic Gram Demolition was a technique that used compressed psions as bullets to forcibly eradicate Magic Sequences. "


His Rupture even won't work to Tomitsuka because His armor simply Block Psion intrusion.

[pampz21]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

We don't know. Sadly.
What do you think that gonna happens if it is true?

I don't even know what to expect.

Of course its that, my shipper sense is tingling!!!
We know what Miyuki and Honaka's bday present, kekeke
Its time for that girl to shine...but iwish its on vol. 13 so we can get some pictures

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by hakazee

Yep but Shippou Family use Papers.
Chapter 14 stated that clearly.

I know. And that makes they suck.

Originally Posted by hakazee

Masaki ? Air bullets. ? Shippou use air bullets. Tomitsuka's armor block it.
"A continuous chain of sixteen compressed air bullets, far surpassing the limits laid down by the rules, came swarming towards Tatsuya.
The Counter Magic Gram Demolition was a technique that used compressed psions as bullets to forcibly eradicate Magic Sequences. "
His Rupture even won't work to Tomitsuka because His armor simply Block Psion intrusion.

For example, it's like pumping air into one side of a can and sealing it, then opening the other end towards the target. Compared with normal air, that sort of concentrated compressed air would strike with greater force and higher control over the direction of the force, so these are some possible advantages. But if it's only to increase the output, it would be far better to simply increase the amount of compression. If he wanted to add vectors to the attack, then direct contact with the compressed air would be sufficient.

This is what i'm talking about.

In "air bullet" the offensive component is basically air that has to be constantly maintained their density by magic.
If the magic is gone, the bullet will lose its density and disappear. The move will lose its offensive power.

But the magic above, the offensive component is the air that is pumped by a magic can. After pressurized and released by magic, the air moves by itself. There is no need for magic to maintain it afterward.

Air bullet is like a man holding a spear charges forward. You kill the man, the spear stops
Masaki magic is like a man throwing a spear. You kill the man, the spear still goes foward.
"Spear" is the offensive component, "man" is the magic that fuel it.

Another example would be Miyuki, she also used her magic to create a natural nitrogen explosion to blast all Shizuku's data-fortified ice block (which is solid against magic interference) in 9-school.

So yeah, Tomitsuka can negate magic phenomenon around him. But the indirect magic attack that use natural phenomenon as medium? Not good at all. Better stick with his target using Marionette.

[hakazee]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

I know. And that makes they sucks.

Yep, for Tomitsuka or Tatsuya or anyone who can use Gram Demollition.

But they're deadly for other magician.

Originally Posted by bietchie11

This is what i'm talking about.

In "air bullet" the offensive component is basically air that has to be constantly maintained their density by magic.
If the magic is gone, the bullet will lose its density and disappear. The move will lose its offensive power.

But the magic above, the offensive component is the air that is pumped by a magic can. After pressurized and released by magic, the air moves by itself. There is no need for magic to maintain it afterward.

Air bullet is like a man holding a spear charges forward. You kill the man, the spear stops
Masaki magic is like a man throwing a spear. You kill the man, the spear still goes foward.
"Spear" is the offensive component, "man" is the magic that fuel it.

I see, Masaki didn't use this when he fight Tatsuya ?

Even though he know Gram Demolition can't negate it ?

Or maybe he didn't know about it.

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by hakazee

I see, Masaki didn't use this when he fight Tatsuya ?

Even though he know Gram Demolition can't negate it ?

Or maybe he didn't know about it.

Masaki knew....
The point is Tatsuya has range Gram.
He can free intercept the magic even before it begins. Repeat, the magic itself. So it doesn't matter what kind of magic it is since it hardly even exists and there is no magical/physical phenomenon created.


While Tomitsuka, due to the range, he can't intercept the magic itself- only the result of that magic (magical phenomenon) . So the type of magic matters since different magics bring different results: physical or magical.



----------
Evident Masaki know about gram:

Spoiler:

"We got lucky, Masaki."

While they managed to rein in their reactions to the news, the two of them failed to hide their elated smiles.

"Now it comes down to whether that guy takes the bait......"

"He will. On the open fields with no cover whatsoever, he has no other options aside from throwing down in a one-on-one shootout."

"He'll try to break through there because that guy has 'Gram Demolition' as a trump card, eh......"

"Precisely, Masaki.

While his tactics smack of ambushes and surprise, in reality everything is founded on a complex series of calculations.

The text show the magic Masaki used against Tatsuya is actually not "air bullet" but "compression air". This text shows the way Tatsiuya uses gram that i mentioned above. This text is my comment:

Spoiler:

Masaki didn't panic in the slightest at Tatsuya's change of pace and calmly launched Compression-Type Magic at Tatsuya.

His run failed to adopt any evasive maneuvers.

It's not like his opponent was using his eyes to aim, so that degree of evasion was meaningless.

As he ran forward, Tatsuya concentrated on the mass of energy formed to alter the Eidos (me: the magic can) in the air (me: in the air) and sent a bullet made of psions — "Gram Demolition" straight into the mass, shattering Masaki's magic before it could materialize.(me: the active use of range gram, contrast to Psion armor's passive usage!!! He destroyed it before it even exists.)

Nonetheless — with the distance between them drawing ever closer, aiming was more simplistic. While physical distance was not a direct factor, the closer the physical target was, the easier it became to perceive its proximity and existence.

Especially when aiming air-like objects (me: again, floating magical can) that are not usually visible. The closer the target was, the easier it became to take aim.