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Magin · 2013-06-06, 01:02

Reading this argument is rather... fascinating, really. I'm no history major, but I do have a certain interest in Eastern Asia. And while I perhaps am not as well-informed as others, I've come to learn a few things in general about East Asia and the West, namely the US.

First and foremost though, if what I was taught in class is correct, then regarding the Massacre itself, Deng did give warning to the students to get out of there before the tanks came in and the events unfolded. So, you could say blame lies on both sides, for the students not leaving in the first place after being warned, and then Deng for killing them when they didn't leave.

Now, as to why this particular incident most likely is prompted- first, I would assume that it's because 1989 is also when the Berlin Wall fell (unfortunately, I don't recall off the top of my head whether it fell before or after). In other words, this left (and still leaves) China as the last major threshold of Communism against the West. The second part is (and part of this is my own personal belief) with the US being the victor of WWII in the end and therefore being the world's greatest superpower at the time which still stands [on a completely unrelated note, I've always believed that the reason why WWII is talked about so much over other more recent wars, excluding its shear size and all-around atrocities, is because it was the last war the US actually won and also the one that put them at the top in regards to other countries, but this a topic for another thread], as long as you're on the US's and the West's side of democracy and against communism, you actually CAN get away with a ton of stuff. Meaning that Tiananmen is the most well-remembered because it was see as the last major stand against Communism, plus the media loves to add in the fact that it was UNARMED, STUDENT protestors (as a disclaimer- again, my history is on the rusty side, so I may not have all the facts).

Also, for anyone who doesn't think that tons of stuff will slide as long as you're on the US's side, here's my two favorite examples: number one, during WWII with Japan committing atrocities in the rest of Asia, their imperial flag should be as outlawed as the swastika. The reason why it isn't (granted, part of this is my personal opinion)- Korea happened, and thus the US wanted to get all buddy-buddy with Japan in order to take care of that mess, and so things which should have gotten a lot more attention went completely out the window. Number two, between the Rape of Nanjing and the Bataan death march... well, I'm not sure about Bataan, but I know that Nanjing is given about one whole sentence in a textbook, and the reason why this slides so easily is because of how buddy-buddy Japan and the US are (I have more examples, but that would derail this thread too much off topic)

Of course, another reason why so much hate tends to go towards China these days is because China is pretty much the only true economic rival to the US these days... and of course the US can't have that, so it'll do what it an to paint China in a negative light.

Irenicus · 2013-06-06, 01:47

^Everything is America's fault.

The United States most certainly did not point a gun at Deng Xiaoping's head and asked him to send tanks to roll over idealistic Chinese students.

And I just love how you phrase "the media" as "lov[ing]" the ruthless suppression as if they should just STFU because otherwise it's the hypocritical West and the evil American Empire's nefarious public relations campaign plot.

No shit, a massive protest movement in the very heart of the capital of China, a massive incident against historical democratizing trends in the most momentous year since 1968, and you ask the world media -- or the public, or anyone with half a brain, a sense of compassion, and any respect for Democracy back then -- not to talk about it? You think they needed someone from the CIA to "nudge" them to cover it?

As for Japan, even now from time to time they get enough shit with the 'Murricans with Pearl Harbor, you know. That the Americans -back then- didn't quite care nearly as much about twenty million dead Chinese as opposed to dead Europeans is a whole different matter, and nothing, absolutely nothing about American/Western/White/Christian/Liberal "hypocrisy" changed a single fact about the Tiananmen Square Incident. Discuss it on its terms. Bringing America into the picture to "excuse" the event is a sign of CCP propaganda brainwashing. Oh, look, the other guy did it too! Or maybe that other other guy who didn't do it will have something to gain by painting the Fatherland in a bad light!

And yes, I'm just as harsh with American exceptionalist bullshit as I am with Chinese exceptionalist bullshit. Nationalists of the World = bitch please.

Ithekro · 2013-06-06, 02:15

The uprising in some of the Warsaw Pact counties of Eastern Europe was in the late 1960s if I recall. I seem to remember someone saying that the Russian extras in I think the film Waterloo were soldiers that were recalled o duty between one year of filming and the next to put down one of those rebellion...I think in either Hungry or Czechoslovakia.

kyp275 · 2013-06-06, 06:18

so basically for some people, it boils down to:

- It's America's fault, and
- It's totally OK to run over unarmed students with tanks.

Am I missing anything else?

Endless Soul · 2013-06-06, 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyp275

so basically for some people, it boils down to:

- It's America's fault, and
- It's totally OK to run over unarmed students with tanks.

Am I missing anything else?

Nope, I think that about covers it.

Endless "It's my fault" Soul

ArchmageXin · 2013-06-06, 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyp275

so basically for some people, it boils down to:

- It's America's fault, and
- It's totally OK to run over unarmed students with tanks.

Am I missing anything else?

-It is OK to run over students and orphans if you are friend of freedomerica.

Magin · 2013-06-06, 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irenicus

The United States most certainly did not point a gun at Deng Xiaoping's head and asked him to send tanks to roll over idealistic Chinese students.

Where did you get this implication from? This is what I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magin

First and foremost though, if what I was taught in class is correct, then regarding the Massacre itself, Deng did give warning to the students to get out of there before the tanks came in and the events unfolded. So, you could say blame lies on both sides, for the students not leaving in the first place after being warned, and then Deng for killing them when they didn't leave.

In other words, Deng was making the threats and then acted upon said threats. There was nothing about the US having any hand in the incident, other than its reporting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irenicus

And I just love how you phrase "the media" as "lov[ing]" the ruthless suppression as if they should just STFU because otherwise it's the hypocritical West and the evil American Empire's nefarious public relations campaign plot.

Granted, the media bit was mostly my own personal opinion. The only cold hard facts I can give you is that Tiananmen happened and at the time it was a huge incident (not to say it isn't one today). As for the rest of it... well, to the best of my knowledge, if an incident occurs in which America and the "Good Guys" are at fault, the media might spend a few days on it before the incident is swept under the rug. Now, if something happens in which it's the fault of someone who isn't on the "Good Guys" side, and in fact may be against the "Good Guys", then the media will spend more time on it in order to put out such propaganda like "Look at what evils America and Freedom are fighting!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

-It is OK to run over students and orphans if you are friend of freedomerica.

I wouldn't say that... go re-read my quoted part. I say more like "If you a friend of America, then you can get away with a lot more than if you weren't America's friend"

Irenicus · 2013-06-06, 22:30

In my previous outburst, I aimed squarely at this CCP propagandist nonsense that somehow the USA being...whatever the USA is being...somehow means that anything that comes out of the West are geopolitically-motivated lies to dirty the glorious rise of glorious China the Supremely Glorious.

However, to be frank I *am* interested in the perception and conception of the '89 incident amongst various quarters -- the common citizens of the Peoples' Republic, the citizens of Hong Kong and Taiwan, the Chinese of the diaspora (Singapore?), other Asian nations' citizens, and of course the PRC government itself. What do you know about this topic? How do you feel about it? What does Tiananmen means, if any, to some of you? If you aren't one of these groups (I'm pretty certain none of us here are CCP members......right?), what do you think they think? What is '89 Tiananmen to History?

I made no explicit statements of my opinion, but I believe it's also very clear what I think, not-white-not-Christian-not-actually-Western Western devil that I am. But I genuinely don't know what the other people in other situations think about it, if, again, they think about it at all.

Any say?

__________

In any case, Magin:

Spoiler for Space:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magin

Granted, the media bit was mostly my own personal opinion. The only cold hard facts I can give you is that Tiananmen happened and at the time it was a huge incident (not to say it isn't one today). As for the rest of it... well, to the best of my knowledge, if an incident occurs in which America and the "Good Guys" are at fault, the media might spend a few days on it before the incident is swept under the rug. Now, if something happens in which it's the fault of someone who isn't on the "Good Guys" side, and in fact may be against the "Good Guys", then the media will spend more time on it in order to put out such propaganda like "Look at what evils America and Freedom are fighting!".

Be very, very careful with *the media.* There is no single media. There never was, except in totalitarian states (even then, look behind the cracks...). When there is a clear bias, it's because journalists are people too (except for TinyRedLeaf, I think he's some sort of sentient robot) and Western journalists happen to be...Westerners, so they live in countries where the values of democracy are taught in schools. What do you expect them to talk about? And if they all sound the same sometimes, well, winds blow in certain ways and societies create their common senses and their common truths.

And while there are plenty of American exceptionalists who will quite blatantly "forget" about the crimes of Pinochet, the Contras, the military dictators of the Caribbean, Chiang Kai-Shek, etc., etc., there are many American academics, journalists, thinkers, Noam Chomsky, and commoners like me who are more than willing to not forget and more than unwilling to approve of such "measures."

Yeah, fair enough, the current Turkish unrest is under-covered (not quite, the Times runs quite a few articles on it constantly), and the tone is less sure -- mostly because people in power, in policy think tanks, and in the media *are* less sure. Not because there is some sort of evil media conspiracy.

Domestically, it's even less of an "issue." Remember the Iraq War? Big mistake, shame on the New York Times forever, etc., but there were millions of Americans out there protesting just as angrily, if not more, than the world which was outraged at the neocon scums that governed the mighty superpower back then.

Remember the recent LAPD incidents, like that massive manhunt some months back? Half the country was on the side of the murderer because fuck the LAPD.

And if Occupy protesters in Times Square got run over by Abrams in 2011, you bet your ass the media -- and quite a few more things -- would have been lit on fire.

Never, ever think you are alone above the masses and the mass media. Usually, that means you aren't.

kyp275 · 2013-06-06, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irenicus

In my previous outburst, I aimed squarely at this CCP propagandist nonsense that somehow the USA being...whatever the USA is being...somehow means that anything that comes out of the West are geopolitically-motivated lies to dirty the glorious rise of glorious China the Supremely Glorious.

However, to be frank I *am* interested in the perception and conception of the '89 incident amongst various quarters -- the common citizens of the Peoples' Republic, the citizens of Hong Kong and Taiwan, the Chinese of the diaspora (Singapore?), other Asian nations' citizens, and of course the PRC government itself. What do you know about this topic? How do you feel about it? What does Tiananmen means, if any, to some of you? If you aren't one of these groups (I'm pretty certain none of us here are CCP members......right?), what do you think they think? What is '89 Tiananmen to History?

I made no explicit statements of my opinion, but I believe it's also very clear what I think, not-white-not-Christian-not-actually-Western Western devil that I am. But I genuinely don't know what the other people in other situations think about it, if, again, they think about it at all.

Any say?

Blasphemy! you did not include enough Glorious to properly show the true Glorious-ness of Her Most Glorious of the Supreme Glorious China, the Most Glorious Motherland!!!

I was young, but not so young that I don't remember it. There were newspaper clippings about the incident even in my elementary school classroom in Taiwan (my age is betrayed!). It was pretty much one of my first exposures to international events and politics, and left quite the impression to say the least. I don't remember much now, but I do remember thinking why would people do this, and how could they.

Two questions that I now know the rather unfortunate answers to.

TinyRedLeaf · 2013-06-07, 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irenicus

Be very, very careful with *the media.* There is no single media. There never was, except in totalitarian states (even then, look behind the cracks...). When there is a clear bias, it's because journalists are people too (except for TinyRedLeaf, I think he's some sort of sentient robot)

This journalist is about to cover his first protest tomorrow as a reporter. Was excited at first but, after consulting a friend, it belatedly dawned on me the potential dangers that await.

So, if I get a black eye tomorrow, don't count on me to file an "objective" story...

ChainLegacy · 2013-06-08, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Actually it kind of does, and some of them aren't even cold war. Most of them are done today. It prove a point. It is OK to massacre, murder, imprison if you happened to be an "ally of democracy, or a democracy" Because you are doing it in the name of....democracy. If you believe it is wrong to gun down protestors, then there should a international memorial news week to just about everyone.

I understand your perspective, but really, both countries do shitty things, have corrupt political systems, and deserve criticism. I can see how it's annoying as someone from China seeing pro-US people ignoring all the faults of their government and only criticizing your home country's. But that doesn't somehow justify something like Tiananmen. We should focus instead on the fact that both governments suck.

That's my viewpoint, anyways.

2013-06-06, 01:02	Link #201
Magin #1 Akashiya Moka Fan Author Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Where magic is real Age: 35	Reading this argument is rather... fascinating, really. I'm no history major, but I do have a certain interest in Eastern Asia. And while I perhaps am not as well-informed as others, I've come to learn a few things in general about East Asia and the West, namely the US. First and foremost though, if what I was taught in class is correct, then regarding the Massacre itself, Deng did give warning to the students to get out of there before the tanks came in and the events unfolded. So, you could say blame lies on both sides, for the students not leaving in the first place after being warned, and then Deng for killing them when they didn't leave. Now, as to why this particular incident most likely is prompted- first, I would assume that it's because 1989 is also when the Berlin Wall fell (unfortunately, I don't recall off the top of my head whether it fell before or after). In other words, this left (and still leaves) China as the last major threshold of Communism against the West. The second part is (and part of this is my own personal belief) with the US being the victor of WWII in the end and therefore being the world's greatest superpower at the time which still stands [on a completely unrelated note, I've always believed that the reason why WWII is talked about so much over other more recent wars, excluding its shear size and all-around atrocities, is because it was the last war the US actually won and also the one that put them at the top in regards to other countries, but this a topic for another thread], as long as you're on the US's and the West's side of democracy and against communism, you actually CAN get away with a ton of stuff. Meaning that Tiananmen is the most well-remembered because it was see as the last major stand against Communism, plus the media loves to add in the fact that it was UNARMED, STUDENT protestors (as a disclaimer- again, my history is on the rusty side, so I may not have all the facts). Also, for anyone who doesn't think that tons of stuff will slide as long as you're on the US's side, here's my two favorite examples: number one, during WWII with Japan committing atrocities in the rest of Asia, their imperial flag should be as outlawed as the swastika. The reason why it isn't (granted, part of this is my personal opinion)- Korea happened, and thus the US wanted to get all buddy-buddy with Japan in order to take care of that mess, and so things which should have gotten a lot more attention went completely out the window. Number two, between the Rape of Nanjing and the Bataan death march... well, I'm not sure about Bataan, but I know that Nanjing is given about one whole sentence in a textbook, and the reason why this slides so easily is because of how buddy-buddy Japan and the US are (I have more examples, but that would derail this thread too much off topic) Of course, another reason why so much hate tends to go towards China these days is because China is pretty much the only true economic rival to the US these days... and of course the US can't have that, so it'll do what it an to paint China in a negative light. __________________ Gifted...or Cursed? R+V fanfic- Chapter 4 of A Water Bride and a Vampire is now up at FF.net! All fans of Inner or Outer Moka, come join her fanclub!

2013-06-06, 02:15	Link #203
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	The uprising in some of the Warsaw Pact counties of Eastern Europe was in the late 1960s if I recall. I seem to remember someone saying that the Russian extras in I think the film Waterloo were soldiers that were recalled o duty between one year of filming and the next to put down one of those rebellion...I think in either Hungry or Czechoslovakia. __________________

2013-06-06, 01:47	Link #202
Irenicus Le fou, c'est moi Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA Age: 34	^Everything is America's fault. The United States most certainly did not point a gun at Deng Xiaoping's head and asked him to send tanks to roll over idealistic Chinese students. And I just love how you phrase "the media" as "lov[ing]" the ruthless suppression as if they should just STFU because otherwise it's the hypocritical West and the evil American Empire's nefarious public relations campaign plot. No shit, a massive protest movement in the very heart of the capital of China, a massive incident against historical democratizing trends in the most momentous year since 1968, and you ask the world media -- or the public, or anyone with half a brain, a sense of compassion, and any respect for Democracy back then -- not to talk about it? You think they needed someone from the CIA to "nudge" them to cover it? As for Japan, even now from time to time they get enough shit with the 'Murricans with Pearl Harbor, you know. That the Americans -back then- didn't quite care nearly as much about twenty million dead Chinese as opposed to dead Europeans is a whole different matter, and nothing, absolutely nothing about American/Western/White/Christian/Liberal "hypocrisy" changed a single fact about the Tiananmen Square Incident. Discuss it on its terms. Bringing America into the picture to "excuse" the event is a sign of CCP propaganda brainwashing. Oh, look, the other guy did it too! Or maybe that other other guy who didn't do it will have something to gain by painting the Fatherland in a bad light! And yes, I'm just as harsh with American exceptionalist bullshit as I am with Chinese exceptionalist bullshit. Nationalists of the World = bitch please.

2013-06-06, 06:18	Link #204
kyp275 Meh Join Date: Feb 2008	so basically for some people, it boils down to: - It's America's fault, and - It's totally OK to run over unarmed students with tanks. Am I missing anything else?