Israel, Hamas & the Gaza Strip

[SaintessHeart]

Actually there is a possibility that Hamas could be playing the media. Note that the Red Crescent Society in Palestine is founded by Arafat of Fatah, and Hamas denouced the ENTIRE Fatah as their enemy. They could have just robbed the RCP of their supplies, but they didn't.

@Outfoxzero

Note that Hamas have operatives everywhere, and they can just shift their manpower around. Police cadet today, suicide bomber tomorrow. I understand that the Israelis are not taking any chances with an enemy like this.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

@Outfoxzero

Note that Hamas have operatives everywhere, and they can just shift their manpower around. Police cadet today, suicide bomber tomorrow. I understand that the Israelis are not taking any chances with an enemy like this.

I know I said I was going to try and stay out of this from here on, but...

Targetting non-combatants because they might become combatants tomorrow is exactly the kind of behaviour I expect western democracies not to demonstrate on the battlefield.

Honestly, you should have quit while your side was making headway. Bladeofdarkness' explanation of the police cadet incident may not make me excuse the general strategy of targetting Hamas' civilian infrastructure, but it at least provides a decent rational for a specific strike.

[bladeofdarkness]

he is saying "israel should behave like EVERY OTHER COUNTREY in the area would"
i disagree

[Vexx]

Interesting... I didn't say other countries in that area didn't also invoke genocide at times at least metaphorically. But if Israel should behave like every other country in the area - why should I treat it differently than those countries?

I also don't make the mistake of treating Israel, Hamas, the Palestinians, or for that matter, Israeli citizens as single monolithic entities that agree on everything. A large number of people on both sides simply want to get on with daily life and make a living -- I'm not particularly fond of the aggressive extremists on any side and I'm annoyed when my tax dollars fund such behavior.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Interesting... I didn't say other countries in that area didn't also invoke genocide at times at least metaphorically. But if Israel should behave like every other country in the area - why should I treat it differently than those countries?

didnt say it should
i said thats more or less what HE said
and i disagree
israel should keep doing what its doing now
fight the millitents
and try its best to avoid killing civis

and you DO treat it differently
you hold them up to a higher moral level
you dont feel a need to hold the hamas to that same moral level (becouse you already know they are monsters)
so when you complain about israel's actions
remember the difference

[Vexx]

Not all Hamas are monsters though I think their leadership seems void of constructive ideas and the little cells that romp around with rockets are just thugs. I could level a similar charge on the Israeli government and some elements of the military establishment there.

I don't "hold them up to a higher moral level" (some may) but when Israeli government wants my help and $$$ - yes, I'm going to want the Israeli leadership held accountable for their behavior, be straight with us, and to operate by protocol. The settlements issue alone I could spend pages on. I send a lot of my tax dollars in the direction of Israel and I'm getting more and more curious *WHY* my leadership thinks that is a good idea.

The US taxpayer has sent Israel over $91billion dollars and average over $3billion dollars a year just officially (not including outright grants, private citizen and evangelical donations, and classified amounts). That published figure is around $8million dollars a day.... some economists place a higher estimate of over a 1.5 trillion dollars since 1973.

[bladeofdarkness]

hamas are monsters
their very core priniciple is monsterus
and anyone who would use THEIR OWN CHILDREN as human shields are monsters
i can also spend pages on what they are doing in gaza right now
but its a waste becouse as i said, no point in complaning about them

and israel is held accountable for its behavior
and the only reason that is so, is becouse they (as well as the rest of the world) insists that it should be so

your leadership send money to israel, becouse it serves your leaderships interest to do so
be it political or stratigic, your leaders have an interest in supporting israel and that is why they support it
as long as those interests remain in place, they will keep supporting israel (whether or not it acts morally)
way of the world
"countries have no friends, only interests" - charle de gol

but like i said, israel does its best to avoid civilian deaths
its fighting against an enemy who does their best to negate that effort
which is why the death toll is higher then you and i like, but lower then it could be

[Vexx]

I hate to bust your bubble but unless you start doing dramatically better on the public relations front with the US taxpayer - their leaders are going to be less and less inclined to send money to Israel.

Please stop deluding yourself that Hamas isn't also held accountable for its behavior - it only makes your position less credible.

[Whiteshirt]

and there was no israeli occupation in gaza before this war started
israel had pulled out 3 years ago as a show of good faith
who was oppressing the people in gaza last month ?
the israeli-palestinian conflict can be solved with peace eventually
the israeli-hamas conflict can't, becouse the hamas is a group BUILT AROUND the agenda of wiping israel off the map

Because if you know anything about the history of the conflict, the Arabs have lost so much land that I wouldn't be surprised that they're bitter about all this. Who cares who really owned the land first, it doesn't matter since both sides think this area is theirs.

But seriously from what I've seen Israel has done very little to solve this mess. Proposed use of white phosphorus, 'accidental' shelling of the school, supposed accidental killing of UN worker, blocking off medical aid into the Gaza Strip, supposed breaking of the truce. And seriously, just about every charity working in Palestine is fustrated at Israel in some way or another.

Israel does not have the moral upper ground simply because Hamas may or may not be using human shields.

[bladeofdarkness]

who cares if the arabs are bitter about losing
they lost those lands in a war THEY launched in order to wipe israel off the map, so they have no right to complain (by international law)
and what ever land they lost is returned to them following peace treaties
eygpt for exampe got the entire sinai area back in exchange for a peace treaty (an area more then three time the size of the state of israel)
israel has no claims for the west bank and gaza (nor do they claim to have)
and had already pulled out of the gaza strip three years before the corrent conflict

and about what you have heard of
1)the weapon used is not white phosphorus shells
they contain white phosphorus, but they dont work like white phosphorus shells
the shells explode in mid air, the white phosphorus is ignited, and the entire area is covered in smoke
and its used on open areas to cover for tank movments
and most importently, its perfectly legal according to international conventions
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
2)the school was hit by an artilery shell aimed at a morter firing team standing nearby to it
3)the UN worker case i'm not aware of, so i cant comment on it
4)israel pulls a three hour cease-fire everyday to let food and medical aid into the strip every day (cease-fires that the hamas uses to launch rockets)
and by the way, there have been recorded cases where hamas was robbing these aid convoys
5)what truce ? the six month cease-fire ended in december (nevermind that hamas never kept it)
6)charities will always be pissed off at the stronger side in any conflict
thats what they DO
7)the hamas admits PROUDLY that it uses civilians as shields
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08Gq...eature=related

and none of that has anythng to do with actually solving the conflict
thats just the way the IDF handles itself during the war
solving it is for politics

[Whiteshirt]

Hamas did keep the truce. Israel attacked in responce to the underground tunnels. While the whole thing was going on, Israel put up blockades which was the reason why Hamas needed underground tunnels. The people in the Gaza Strip support Hamas likely because of Maslow's Hierarchy.

You're likely correct about the shells being M825 WP smoke projectiles. However the Israelis haven't signed the agreement that bans the use of these weapons so it is debatable as to whether they are using them as a smoke screen, as weapons, or actually using the real deal.

But this is a pathetic debate. You're from Israel I see so of course you're going to support Israel to the ends of the earth saying stuff like 'That's just how the IDF works'. However essentially telling us that if we don't support Israel's actions, then we must support Hamas is just stupid seeing how far your pushing the 'Hamas are monsters' is silly. You can make a case for either side being the greater villain. Hamas has shown greater disregard for killing civilians, but intentionally or not Israel has tallied up a much greater kill count. I don't need to say both sides are in the wrong do I?

[bladeofdarkness]

1)the tunnels are not used to bring in food you know
hamas was using the underground tunnels to get more weapons (the rockets now being fired at israeli cities
you can understand why israel would have a problem with that
and there were also incidents of workers in the passes being fired at by armed millitents
thats why israel set up the blockades (in practice all it meant was closing the passes, which are under israeli control)

2)the international red cross says that israel is not doing anything wrong in its use of said weapons

3)you can see that im from israel becouse its state in my location profile for all to see
i never made any attempts to hide where i'm from or who i support
and i never say "if your not with us, your with them"

most of the time all i do is try and explain things when people accuse the IDF of things.
and when i call hamas monsters, i tend to include my reasons for why i think they are so
right now the death toll is almost 100/1 for the palestinians with more then 1000 deaths in total
these numbers are terrible
but israel is not the only one to be blamed for them

[Shadow Kira01]

The longer this military conflict drags on, the more difficult it is for me to determine who is truly at fault and what the situation has evolved into now. Nonetheless, the victims of this military conflict would be the civilians on either side of the borders, if the borders are recognized to begin with, of course.

It appears:

>Israel is willing to kill non-combatant Palestinians, if the Hamas will die along with them.

>The Hamas are willing to adopt civilian human shields which is the same as sacrificing non-combatant Palestinians just to kill members of the IDF. War is cruel, but why do the non-combatant civilians have to suffer and why is the world not taking action to stop it?

*sigh*

[FateAnomaly]

Shouldn't always expect the rest of the world to solve the problem when crap happens. Although unfair, the palestinian civilians are also partially responsible for the situation they are in now.

[Vexx]

The Palestinian civilians voted Hamas in (the only other option) when the Fatah became so corrupt and self-serving that no one could vote for them in good conscience. Hamas was more like the IRA in some ways: they had a community service arm, a political arm, and a paramilitary arm -- people voted for the community service arm and hoped the paramilitary could be kept on leash. The non-combatants may regret that vote at this point but there isn't much that can be done about it for now and criticizing Hamas within Gaza can be a death sentence.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

The longer this military conflict drags on, the more difficult it is for me to determine who is truly at fault and what the situation has evolved into now. Nonetheless, the victims of this military conflict would be the civilians on either side of the borders, if the borders are recognized to begin with, of course.

It appears:

>Israel is willing to kill non-combatant Palestinians, if the Hamas will die along with them.

>The Hamas are willing to adopt civilian human shields which is the same as sacrificing non-combatant Palestinians just to kill members of the IDF. War is cruel, but why do the non-combatant civilians have to suffer and why is the world not taking action to stop it?

*sigh*

I actually think you're giving them too much credit. Based on what I'm hearing in this thread and elsewhere, Israel isn't just willing to kill civilians, it's actively targetting Hamas' civilian arm, which pretty much everyone else in the world recognizes as non-combatants. And Hamas is perfectly willing to not only to provoke the IDF into bombing it's own people, but to attack Israel civilians in order to further political goals (lifting of the blockade, etc. - if you can call that "furthering" an interest).

I'm starting to feel like this thread is getting beyond the point where we can actually say we're covering new ground here and degenerating into a "I must have the last post" fest. And yes, I do realize I'm guilty of this too.

[RAVNEN]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

why do the non-combatant civilians have to suffer and why is the world not taking action to stop it?

The world can't take action because they all have to act with UN bleesing.Sadly enough the UN is control by some group of power hungry maniac.Sometime the truth hurt a lot.At least my country send something to UN & look like they are willing to do something.

I can at least pray for Palestinian well being & donate some resources to aid funds.Hopefully the aid will arrive to those poor civilian.Oh man I'm crying already.

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

The longer this military conflict drags on, the more difficult it is for me to determine who is truly at fault and what the situation has evolved into now. Nonetheless, the victims of this military conflict would be the civilians on either side of the borders, if the borders are recognized to begin with, of course.

It appears:

>Israel is willing to kill non-combatant Palestinians, if the Hamas will die along with them.

>The Hamas are willing to adopt civilian human shields which is the same as sacrificing non-combatant Palestinians just to kill members of the IDF. War is cruel, but why do the non-combatant civilians have to suffer and why is the world not taking action to stop it?

*sigh*

I see it more as Israel not being willing to allow Hamas the usage of human shields. Sure it sucks for the people being used but I think the greater fault lies with the people trying to use them. As to your question, what exactly do you expect the rest of the world to do ? And regardless of what your expectations are, do you think it will be able to be achieved without force ? Both sides need to be interested in peace for it to be able to happen.

[LadyVanilla]

War is bad .. and there's never a winner in war!

I hate to see people dying, be it Palestinian or Israeli .. we are all human after all, and we deserve to live in peace.

It's surprising how the media can manipulate us towards supporting one side or the other, but facts and numbers never lie ..

* See how many people were killed from both sides, u'd know who's stronger & acting bully!
* See who uses gases and bombs to kill innocents & targets civilians
* Check the history of this Land, and who invaded it and occupied it more than 60 years now, and kicked its people out!
* Take a look how Palestinians who live as refugees in their own land till this day, and then claim they are capable and powerful terrorists!

At the end, put yourself in their shoes .. Imagine that you were living peacefully in your country, and someone comes and takes your land from you .. wouldn't you at least resist and fight! That’s what Hammas is doing!

Some people were saying that the Palestinian are faking the death of their children & people .. are you kidding me?! There are killed people from both sides, and it's all TRUE and you can’t deny it or act as if it's not true! The sad part is, is that there's thousands of Palestinians killed, compared to few Israelis .. makes me wonder who the real terrorist is :s

Funny how the world can’t see the suffering of others just because of religion or race!


I pray for peace to all nations .. and all religions



P.S. for those who still "day-dream" that there's no killing of innocent people, and Palestinians are just exaggerating & faking it .. just read this from a neutral source:
REUTERS, GAZA - The Palestinian death toll in the offensive since December 27 topped 1,018, the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza said. The health minister of the Hamas-run government says more than 400 of the dead are women and children.

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...dChannel=10112

[Whiteshirt]

1)the weapon used is not white phosphorus shells
they contain white phosphorus, but they dont work like white phosphorus shells
the shells explode in mid air, the white phosphorus is ignited, and the entire area is covered in smoke
and its used on open areas to cover for tank movments
and most importently, its perfectly legal according to international conventions

The IDF might have America's funding but they can't aim for shit.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5521925.ece

UN headquarters in Gaza hit by Israeli 'white phosphorus' shells