The Future of US Healthcare

[wontaek]

I'm going to blow some steams.

#1 What is wrong with Socialism? I hear people saying the health care reform means USA will become socialistic country. Why is it such a bad thing?

#2 Why is Communism so bad? Again I hear people slamming down on the liberals with that statement, but I never heard why the liberals are communists, nor why the communism is bad. Some say Soviet Union and China failed because of communism. Will someone care to elaborate why the communism is so bad?

#3 I also saw people accusing Obama of being a Fascist? How can someone be a Fascist and Socialist?

#4 Why was all the people in picture of the TEA party rally 'white'?

#5 What hurts more? Someone earning $100,000 paying $10,000 in tax or someone earning $20,000 paying $1,000 in tax?

#6 How can we expect the children of people earning $20,000 per year go to prestigious prep schools and IVY League level Universities? How can we expect these children to receive all that extra care that is available in expensive private high schools and/or test preps?

#7 I was involved with hiring decisions of an Atlanta based test prep for 2 years. The prep gives supplementary lessons to aid students prepare for SAT subject tests and AP exams. In order to make sure the instructors were qualified, we usually demand that they produce GRE Subject test scores in related field, MCAT test scores, or test comparable tests within our institute. For example, someone who wants to teach Physics needs to show GRE Physics Subject test scores. Our cut line is rather generous: better than 70% of the test takers or a score that will usually place him better than 70% of the test taker. In any math or science subject areas, more than 80% of the people who passed this requirements were NOT born in USA. In non-math/science areas, still more than 40% of the people who passed the test requirements were not born in USA. Why? If this pattern kind of holds true in most other places, how much can you expect average American students from family earning less than $50,000 per year to have any shot at graduating from good universities?

#8 Why do American insist on using British units of measurements? What good or harm does it do?

#9 How come you can't check into clinic of your choice for minor medical problems without paying an arm and leg? How come these visits to check out minor possible medical problems are often not covered by the health insurance? If you have a bad cold and you just want a 2nd opinion, will your health insurance cover your visit to someone other than your principle care provider? Why are there so many limits on which doctor you can visit with these insurances?

#10 Why was it so hard for the test prep I was working in to find low level workers who will work hard and willing to learn new tasks? We usually had to go through average of 5 workers before we found someone with right attitude and capacity to learn, and those worker we like usually left us within a year when they found a greener pasture. Often the worker we hire turns out to either have capacity to learn but be lazy, or be hard working but also hard to train. Why do I get a feeling that unemployment numbers will not change much even if all the 'illegals' suddenly disappear?

11. When a near by county cracked down hard on the immigrants, many legal immigrants left as well as illegals. Why did that county's economy and budget just implode instead of improving due to US citizens getting the jobs that were denied to them? How come they ended up cutting back Emergency Response Service, and had some of their hospitals and clinics close?

12. Why are the Christian Conservatives against paying taxes for the poor?

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by mg1942

this just in

looks like some reps want to make changes...


Rep. joe the heckler and Dean Heller of Nevada proposed an amendment that would require validation of citizenship. It was voted down in the House W&M Committee.

So if you are not a citizen, even though you pay income tax, you are not getting any health related benefits, and since you can't afford insurance for your spouse and child, they can't even go to hospitals? right?

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by mg1942

this just in

looks like some reps want to make changes...


Rep. joe the heckler and Dean Heller of Nevada proposed an amendment that would require validation of citizenship. It was voted down in the House W&M Committee.

(heavy German accent) "Papers, please???"

My wife saw this news blurb - first comment: "Great.... then I'd have to prove I'm a US citizen every time I go to get medical care because I "look foreign" to stupid white people like Wilson."

[mg1942]

Originally Posted by wontaek

So if you are not a citizen, even though you pay income tax, you are not getting any health related benefits,

that's what joe heckler and my state rep are trying to do... deny green card and H1b holders the cvoverage
good thing it was shut down

and since you can't afford insurance for your spouse and child, they can't even go to hospitals? right?

if it's emergeny, such as bike accident or getting shot during a botched crack deal then you have to bne treated... just gotta pay the bill later. The staff may ask you for legal status but i doubt it's gonna be used against you


-------------------------

Can any texas residents here confirm if this is true?
I heard that Parkland Hospital in Dallas bills the Mexican gov for services provided to mexican illegal aliens.

[ZephyrLeanne]

Originally Posted by wontaek

So if you are not a citizen, even though you pay income tax, you are not getting any health related benefits, and since you can't afford insurance for your spouse and child, they can't even go to hospitals? right?

Typical red neck idea. It's not a conservative Christian thing. I'm one myself, but I support the ORIGINAL Democrat bill. At this stage, this is far too watered down.

Really, proof of citizenship? Denial of service to less financially capable? All very red neck, neocon ideas.

If you really want a conservative Christian voice, you're better off asking me then those neocon Republicans.

[TooPurePureBoy]

I'm not nearly smart enough to speak for anyone else but here is my take.

Originally Posted by wontaek

#1 What is wrong with Socialism? I hear people saying the health care reform means USA will become socialistic country. Why is it such a bad thing?

#2 Why is Communism so bad? Again I hear people slamming down on the liberals with that statement, but I never heard why the liberals are communists, nor why the communism is bad. Some say Soviet Union and China failed because of communism. Will someone care to elaborate why the communism is so bad?

#3 I also saw people accusing Obama of being a Fascist? How can someone be a Fascist and Socialist?

#4 Why was all the people in picture of the TEA party rally 'white'?

#5 What hurts more? Someone earning $100,000 paying $10,000 in tax or someone earning $20,000 paying $1,000 in tax?

#6 How can we expect the children of people earning $20,000 per year go to prestigious prep schools and IVY League level Universities? How can we expect these children to receive all that extra care that is available in expensive private high schools and/or test preps?

#7 I was involved with hiring decisions of an Atlanta based test prep for 2 years. The prep gives supplementary lessons to aid students prepare for SAT subject tests and AP exams. In order to make sure the instructors were qualified, we usually demand that they produce GRE Subject test scores in related field, MCAT test scores, or test comparable tests within our institute. For example, someone who wants to teach Physics needs to show GRE Physics Subject test scores. Our cut line is rather generous: better than 70% of the test takers or a score that will usually place him better than 70% of the test taker. In any math or science subject areas, more than 80% of the people who passed this requirements were NOT born in USA. In non-math/science areas, still more than 40% of the people who passed the test requirements were not born in USA. Why? If this pattern kind of holds true in most other places, how much can you expect average American students from family earning less than $50,000 per year to have any shot at graduating from good universities?

#8 Why do American insist on using British units of measurements? What good or harm does it do?

#9 How come you can't check into clinic of your choice for minor medical problems without paying an arm and leg? How come these visits to check out minor possible medical problems are often not covered by the health insurance? If you have a bad cold and you just want a 2nd opinion, will your health insurance cover your visit to someone other than your principle care provider? Why are there so many limits on which doctor you can visit with these insurances?

#10 Why was it so hard for the test prep I was working in to find low level workers who will work hard and willing to learn new tasks? We usually had to go through average of 5 workers before we found someone with right attitude and capacity to learn, and those worker we like usually left us within a year when they found a greener pasture. Often the worker we hire turns out to either have capacity to learn but be lazy, or be hard working but also hard to train. Why do I get a feeling that unemployment numbers will not change much even if all the 'illegals' suddenly disappear?

11. When a near by county cracked down hard on the immigrants, many legal immigrants left as well as illegals. Why did that county's economy and budget just implode instead of improving due to US citizens getting the jobs that were denied to them? How come they ended up cutting back Emergency Response Service, and had some of their hospitals and clinics close?

12. Why are the Christian Conservatives against paying taxes for the poor?

1. Socialism is anti everything our forefathers stood for. It puts property of everything into the hands of the state which is exactly why they rebelled against the british in the first place. America stands for private property and the ability for an individual to control there own life. Now how much America still stands for this (or ever really did) now a days is another debate.

2. Communism is "bad" because it never works out for the individual in the end. It's all about helping "everyone" but everyone is never YOU. Instead of allowing certain highly motivated and talented people to rise to the top it instead keeps everyone equally miserable. There is no motivation to be excellent in communism unless you are totally brainwashed to love the "motherland" more than your own life. Which is hard to do when you are seeing so many breadlines.

3. You do know that Hitler (yea that's right I brought out the big H) started out with a socialist agenda that slowly progressed into all out fascism right?

4. Are you really trying to saying that everyone at those Tea parties are just there because they are racist white people? Seriously man I think you know better than to believe that, if not say then say hi to keith olberman for me.

5. Obviously the lower class tax would hurt a lot but your premise is false to begin with. There are wealthy people paying over 50% of there earnings into taxes. That's right I said more than half of there money is taken from them and if they complain they are called greedy.....umm who's the greedy one taking the money from them at gunpoint? WE ARE.

6. This is a huge problem. I certainly don't have the answers. One thing we might try is to try and find a way to get colleges to lower those ridiculously high fees. Especially when you see how little the average college student actually gets from there degree. "Yay I work construction with a degree in history, I'll be paying off my student loans until i'm 60 woohooooo."

7. Our culture does not promote intelligence that's pretty evident. In the modern pop-culture wisdom will make you lose friends not gain them. It's a real shame but I just don't know how to change that. Nothing like taking a class on Japanese literature/film and show up full of interest and watch as the entire class makes zero effort to even listen to the teacher because she has a slight accent. We've all been there, it's really disheartening.

8. It certainly makes things more difficult when you take a geology class and you spend most of your time converting units.

9. I've racked my brain about this sort of problem and came to realize I have no answers. Tort reform might help, going after the insurance companies might help, but I couldn't tell you which. Just being honest.

10. Again. Being a hard worker who is intelligent and highly motivated is not something our society promotes at the moment. It's uncool so to say. Another damn shame that i've bashed my head against the wall over many times.

11. Not sure what this is about I think I'd need more specifics to even believe your premise sorry.

12. It's a very sort of protestant belief that fits with the early model of America that "A man is entitled to the sweat of his own brow". Seriously though there is no true christian that is against helping the poor. They just believe in helping them in a different way then taking from the most wealthy and successful to help the poor. It's just a difference in how you get there not weather or not the poor should be helped. Philanthropy isn't real if it's forced by the government they might say.

Anyway sorry for this long winded post that's more than likely filled with tripe. It was early on sunday morning and I felt the need to type. Sorry if I offended anyone with my radical ideas.

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy

1. Socialism is anti everything our forefathers stood for. It puts property of everything into the hands of the state which is exactly why they rebelled against the british in the first place. America stands for private property and the ability for an individual to control there own life. Now how much America still stands for this (or ever really did) now a days is another debate.

2. Communism is "bad" because it never works out for the individual in the end. It's all about helping "everyone" but everyone is never YOU. Instead of allowing certain highly motivated and talented people to rise to the top it instead keeps everyone equally miserable. There is no motivation to be excellent in communism unless you are totally brainwashed to love the "motherland" more than your own life. Which is hard to do when you are seeing so many breadlines.

3. You do know that Hitler (yea that's right I brought out the big H) started out with a socialist agenda that slowly progressed into all out fascism right?

4. Are you really trying to saying that everyone at those Tea parties are just there because they are racist white people? Seriously man I think you know better than to believe that, if not say then say hi to keith olberman for me.

5. Obviously the lower class tax would hurt a lot but your premise is false to begin with. There are wealthy people paying over 50% of there earnings into taxes. That's right I said more than half of there money is taken from them and if they complain they are called greedy.....umm who's the greedy one taking the money from them at gunpoint? WE ARE.

6. This is a huge problem. I certainly don't have the answers. One thing we might try is to try and find a way to get colleges to lower those ridiculously high fees. Especially when you see how little the average college student actually gets from there degree. "Yay I work construction with a degree in history, I'll be paying off my student loans until i'm 60 woohooooo."

7. Our culture does not promote intelligence that's pretty evident. In the modern pop-culture wisdom will make you lose friends not gain them. It's a real shame but I just don't know how to change that. Nothing like taking a class on Japanese literature/film and show up full of interest and watch as the entire class makes zero effort to even listen to the teacher because she has a slight accent. We've all been there, it's really disheartening.

8. It certainly makes things more difficult when you take a geology class and you spend most of your time converting units.

9. I've racked my brain about this sort of problem and came to realize I have no answers. Tort reform might help, going after the insurance companies might help, but I couldn't tell you which. Just being honest.

10. Again. Being a hard worker who is intelligent and highly motivated is not something our society promotes at the moment. It's uncool so to say. Another damn shame that i've bashed my head against the wall over many times.

11. Not sure what this is about I think I'd need more specifics to even believe your premise sorry.

12. It's a very sort of protestant belief that fits with the early model of America that "A man is entitled to the sweat of his own brow". Seriously though there is no true christian that is against helping the poor. They just believe in helping them in a different way then taking from the most wealthy and successful to help the poor. It's just a difference in how you get there not weather or not the poor should be helped. Philanthropy isn't real if it's forced by the government they might say.

Anyway sorry for this long winded post that's more than likely filled with tripe. It was early on sunday morning and I felt the need to type. Sorry if I offended anyone with my radical ideas.

Oh boy, some people still don't read the memo called HISTORY BOOKS.
First of all, the so called fore fathers are NOT AGAINST TAXATION, there are against taxation WITHOUT REPRESENTATION, ever heard of it?

Socialism does not mean no rights to private property and if you had read your HISTORY BOOKS the US had seized as much private property(and individual rights) by changing laws and/or treaties as any other nations and still have not returned them to their rightful owners using LOL reasons like it is due to national security. (I am talking about indigenous Americans and/or immigrant minorities and their right to their lands denied even though they had signed numerous treaties with the US government.)

Socialism is derived form the word Society, Communism is derived from the word Community, Democracy derives form the word Demo, meaning general people in Latin how many do you belong to?

Taxation to begin with is not to hedge wealth, welfare is do so and not mix the two.
Yes, welfare is paid through tax BUT, tax is also source of developing infrastructure and these are by principle shall be paid by the ones who receives most benefit.
Who benefits from the freeway, airports, seaports, bridges, and so on more, the rich or the poor?
In essence there are no such things as free lunch, get it?

[TooPurePureBoy]

Oh boy, some people still don't read the memo called HISTORY BOOKS.
First of all, the so called fore fathers are NOT AGAINST TAXATION, there are against taxation WITHOUT REPRESENTATION, ever heard of it?

No need to get insulting ya know? Might be another blight on our education system but I actually made it pretty far in my pursuit of a degree in HISTORY. Though mine was more geared towards ancient histories and not really american but I still have read my fair share of history books thanks very much.

[Tenken's Smile]

We Can't Afford to Wait:
http://pol.moveon.org/healthcare_can...56-4jcPTOx&t=3

...

[Shadow Kira01]

Thousands of downtown DC protesters blast Obama

Tens of thousands of protesters fed up with government spending marched to the U.S. Capitol on Saturday, showing their disdain for the president's health care plan with slogans such as "Obamacare makes me sick" and "I'm not your ATM."

The line of protesters clogged several blocks near the Capitol, according to the D.C. Homeland Security and Emergency Management Agency. Demonstrators chanted "enough, enough" and "We the People." Others yelled "You lie, you lie!" and "Pelosi has to go," referring to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif.

Throngs of people waved U.S. flags and held signs reading "Go Green Recycle Congress" and "Obama Bin Lyin.'" Men wore colonial costumes as they listened to speakers who warned of "judgment day" — Election Day 2010.

Other signs — reflecting the growing intensity of the health care debate — depicted President Barack Obama with the signature mustache of Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler. Many referred to Obama as a socialist or communist, and another imposed his face on that of the villainous Joker from "Batman."

This is somewhat of a shock..

Wasn't Barack Obama the symbol of hope and also the leader of change just a few months ago?

[iLney]

Well, it's not surprising if you followed those "tea parties," which were downplayed by all stations but FOX.

It's ugly. I saw on CNN group welding AKs claiming they wouldn't mind a second Civil War?!

[Whiteshirt]

Originally Posted by Shadow Kira01

Thousands of downtown DC protesters blast Obama


This is somewhat of a shock..

Wasn't Barack Obama the symbol of hope and also the leader of change just a few months ago?

This is the same group of people that think Obama is an illegal citizen and a secret muslim. Seriously when one in five people run around with some sort of 'commie czars' banner, you know that these people are pretty much idiots who know nothing about anything. Seriously though, even if he spends the whole year praying to God, manages to cure cancer, and goes off and spreads democracy to the whole world through magic, the wingnuts will still hate him simply because he's a democrat and possibly because he's black considering some of the things they associate him with.

Anyhow, Obama is a typical center of right president - the result shouldn't be surprising. Much of the democratic party (lol Ben Nelson) is actually pretty similar to the Republican party save for some fringe issues here and there so I'm not surprised at how he turned out.

[ZephyrLeanne]

Originally Posted by Whiteshirt

This is the same group of people that think Obama is an illegal citizen and a secret muslim. Seriously when one in five people run around with some sort of 'commie czars' banner, you know that these people are pretty much idiots who know nothing about anything. Seriously though, even if he spends the whole year praying to God, manages to cure cancer, and goes off and spreads democracy to the whole world through magic, the wingnuts will still hate him simply because he's a democrat and possibly because he's black considering some of the things they associate him with.

Anyhow, Obama is a typical center of right president - the result shouldn't be surprising. Much of the democratic party (lol Ben Nelson) is actually pretty similar to the Republican party save for some fringe issues here and there so I'm not surprised at how he turned out.

Typical red neck protesters protesting against a solid bipartisan bill for God-knows-what.

[Whiteshirt]

Originally Posted by ShimatheKat

Typical red neck protesters protesting against a solid bipartisan bill for God-knows-what.

...Which is caused by poor education, decades of anti-*communist* rhetoric, and the sheer refusal to let go of crusty old dogmas. The Founding Fathers are probably good people, but the sheer degree people are willing to hold onto their outdated values is amazing to behold. The issue with producing a bipartisan bill is that due to the values the Republican party currently hold, producing a bipartisan bill is going to water it down by such a amount that its pretty much ultimately be ineffective as hell. In the next election season, everyone can just say 'Welp, look at the left wing fail again' and we're back to square one where the whole first world save for the USA has some form of 'decent' socialized health care.

But yes, I've always wondered if any of these protesters feel any cognitive dissonance. Probably not, because they probably believe 100% that Obama will take these people away and put them into ACORN death camps or something.

[MeoTwister5]

Honestly I always tend to think that shock protests like these are made by people who think they understand an issue but really don't know even 10% of it. Those who actually understand an issue and feel strongly to fight against it are already doing so in their own individual or collective ways, rather than taking to the streets and complaining.

Airing your grievances is fine, but airing them usually doesn't do shit unless you act on it afterwards.

[ZephyrLeanne]

Originally Posted by Whiteshirt

...Which is caused by poor education, decades of anti-*communist* rhetoric, and the sheer refusal to let go of crusty old dogmas. The Founding Fathers are probably good people, but the sheer degree people are willing to hold onto their outdated values is amazing to behold. The issue with producing a bipartisan bill is that due to the values the Republican party currently hold, producing a bipartisan bill is going to water it down by such a amount that its pretty much ultimately be ineffective as hell. In the next election season, everyone can just say 'Welp, look at the left wing fail again' and we're back to square one where the whole first world save for the USA has some form of 'decent' socialized health care.

But yes, I've always wondered if any of these protesters feel any cognitive dissonance. Probably not, because they probably believe 100% that Obama will take these people away and put them into ACORN death camps or something.

Talking about such things, even the Russians understand Obama better than the Republicans.

Does it sound like Mein Kampf?

The new academic year in the United States, which began on September 8, was marred with a massive verbal attack against President Barack Obama. As usual, the attack was conducted by ultrareactionary radio hosts, who compared Obama to Hitler, Stalin and Mao Zedong, claiming that Obama wanted to infect American schoolchildren with ideas of fascism, socialism and communism. Rush Limbaugh added Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong-il on the list and said that Obama wanted to turn the US youth into Hitler Jugend and Komsomol Organization. Sean Hannity of Fox News called Obama a political pedophile.

[MeoTwister5]

Do any sort of educated Americans even still listen to this sort of ultraconservative name-calling bullshit?

[Narona]

Originally Posted by ShimatheKat

Does it sound like Mein Kampf?

So the countries like France are considered fascist, nazi, communist etc. by those americans? o.o

I didn't know Hitler was a great humanist btw.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by ShimatheKat

Does it sound like Mein Kampf?

It's just show us how stupid people can be

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Narona

So the countries like France are considered fascist, nazi, communist etc. by those americans? o.o

I didn't know Hitler was a great humanist btw.

The cognitive dissonance can be quite disturbing to those of us who have to live with these idiots. But yeah... in their topsy-turvy world, democracies like France, Britain, Germany, Japan can be simultaneously our allies and yet bastions of sociali-nazi-fasci-commie zones. They drown out the intelligent criticisms that need to be leveled on reform and overhaul.

They literally can't keep a consistent thought in their heads.... I should know as a fair amount of my relatives fall into this category of moonbats and wingnuts. I sit here and watch them defend the status quo (the health insurance industry) while every single other industry we have is being bled dry by it leaving our businesses unable to compete in the global market where other companies don't have to worry about their employee's healthcare.