2011-08-06, 02:16 | Link #23641 | ||||||
The True Culprit
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That, and the possibility that she's apparently willing to cover for people like Battler's parents, as implied in the EP7 Tea Party. Her standards aren't very high for the "Who I'll Shame Myself For" list, given that she has like NO self-esteem. Quote:
Plus, it's not consistent with Yasu's self-image or system of values as depicted to kill everyone else because she's afraid of romantic rejection, Quote:
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This is even hinted in EP5 and EP6, so booyah.
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2011-08-06, 07:44 | Link #23642 |
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Well, most discard outright the probability of Maria having anything to do with most of the things in the plot but I still believe she held a pretty big spot in it. At least till episode 4. As I've said before, Maria is the most symbol heavy character in the series. Either these things where unintentional or they had some sort of meaning behind them.
First thing is her name, a clear allusion to the christian faith. Its even written with a cross in it. Depending on which language you use to try an pinpoint its meaning it either comes out as bitter, sea of stars or love. Second is her attire, she wears dark clothing on top and wears a black crown. In a series where chess plays an important part in its metaphor this seems to point at something but it still sounds like a stretch. What about that weird seating order that the Ushiromiya's have? Anything peculiar with it? From what I remember there are 6 rows of people eating at the table, there are 8 rows in chess. If you discard 2 rows in chess , the two with rooks (what would a chariot or tower eat?), what does that lead us? Where is Battler sitting at and who is in front of him? Third her eye colors. Everyone else in rokkenjima has dark eyes while Maria has blue eyes. From what my eyes could see, this particular shade of blue is probably "royal blue" which in itself is peculiar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_blue . Notice anything about the second, more modern shade? Its a lot like the witches eye color. Also its an allusion to the coming of a king. Her flower at the start of the series and that plays a somewhat important role in the first 4 episodes could be seen as a metaphor for herself, or Ange or Yasu really. At least thats how I saw it after hearing about of one the stories in the diary. There are probably more that I cant remember, all of these are circumstantial and could be red herrings at best on RK07s part or he was oblivious to them. |
2011-08-06, 10:00 | Link #23643 | ||||||
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That is what I mean with, it depends on your idea of love. Because it's not actually spelled out in the plot. Quote:
She send the message bottles and the letters at least one or two days before the family conference. This does fall into place with Battler's phonecall to Jessica, but it just doesn't explain why she wouldn't call off the whole thing if she knew of somebodies plan to murder. If she knew, why would she send letters indicating towards her being the culprit? Especially when she had people like Battler or Maria whom she wanted to protect? Who was that person who knew about the whole set-up long enough to highjack her plan (implied in the plan, as you yourself said that you forbid conjecture)? If she actually cared enough to pay out people's families, why not actually destroy the bomb-mechanism, cast away the guns, warn at least Battler or Maria? Why would she carry out a game with the knowledge that it is going to be used by murder? The only person pressuring Beatrice into her role was Lambdadelta...well, according to your theory we should maybe check out a George-delta theory. Quote:
Is Kumasawa really just a sinless mother figure? Yes, she even protected the newborn Beatrice in EP6 from BATTLER's rage (which is probably indicative of what she did for Beatrice II in front of Kinzô). But she is also a lying, conniving old witch. She created those thoughts of a ghostly Beatrice connected to demons and evil spirits in everybody (not only Yasu), she probably actively hid the real truth of the shrine-vanishing-accident, she probably knew about the path to Kuwadorian, yet she refused to act at any time during Yasu's narratives. Also in EP4, like Gohda, she was the one telling the story of the dining hall massacre to the cousins and instigated them to lock them into the shed (with the key in their possession). And Nanjô's sin is exactly his passivness. He knew about Yasu, he knew about Kuwadorian, he knew about Kinzô's death, he knew just about anything. His only excuse is (as said in EP3) that he has a sick grandchild and needed the money. He lacks any moral fiber within the stories once you know what he actually knows. In EP1 he is probably very much aware of who was behind the whole set-up, he could have raised his voice from the moment the letter arrived as he knew who was in possession of the ring AND the title of Beatrice given in the message. Instead he just sits there, bumbling about how he was playing chess with a dead guy. Quote:
Yea right. Maria is the most innocent character in the series by leaps and bounds. She never does anything to hurt anyone at any point except in a goddamn dream where she vents her frustrations at her horridly abusive mother, and even then once she wakes up goes right back to sucking up to her and praying for her to love her. Quote:
Just look at the the Ushiromiya family and household without the (however misguided) love that was evidently there in both Yasu and Tôya. They are at least portrayed as a pretty rotten bunch, all of them. There are things you stop seeing once you add love. Jessica was lusting after "Kanon", yet she was shown as pretty eager to kill whoever was responsible for the tragedy in EP2. Imagine what conflict that must have created between them. She wasn't killed in EP1 where she was just a sad victim of circumstances as a "cast away future". Genji was actually hoping for it as it seems. It is implied in many parts that he was "hoping for the day where he could finally rest in peace" and that he "sadly did not get that chance as early as he hoped because of somebodies foolishnes" (EP2 execute screen) or that he finally got his wish at the end of EP2 "to rest peacefully in the Golden Land". Hideyoshi was, while he was also portrayed as a loving husband, also ready to sacrifice things for this love. He lied for Yasu in EP1, which shows that she sees that potential within him. Quote:
It is actually implied in EP6, that "the 1st twilight" was supposed to be nothing more than a stand off between the lovers to try and decide who would actually succeed. Only EP5 hinted towards a fake murder plot...though EP5 is a whole other problem in itself, because it raises the question of why Battler actually continued to further the witch's illusion during the family conference by creating the event of the letter and the knock. ---- By the way...EP6...all the fights during the "1st twilight" make some sense. George confronts Eva about allowing his love for Shannon. Beatrice confronts Natsuhi, the mother who cast her away. Kanon and Shannon confront Rosa and Maria, the two who were responsible for both the white and the black magic. But why does Jessica confront Kyrie? Why Kyrie of all people? Why not her own father? What is there about Kyrie that she needs to overcome? (I definitely have to reread that part...) Considering it is Battler who is not seen to be killed by any of the contestants. Considerig he is the one left alive by Erika (who is filling in for Battler as the detective). Considering that this basically amounts to the same setup as the locked room chain in EP3...this would only leave us, if we would exclude Yasu-culprit, with Battler culprit. Battler-kun is not the culprit! Battler-kun did not kill anybody. This can be said for all the games. If we actually go with AT's Covering for Culprit X theory, this is the only solution I can arrive at. She created a set-up within her games where Battler could never be the culprit, where he was always free of sin, because he was the detective. The only one who could have highjacked Yasu's plans and had enough influence on her to make her cover for him is Ushiromiya Battler himself. The only two people he ever truly loved are Ange and Yasu, therefore he lead Eva on to escape and care for Ange, while he escaped with Yasu. He knew that Eva was weak and that she would care for Ange. Therefore the terrible truth that drives Ange insane is the fact that her beloved brother, the one person she wanted to return, was a murderer. |
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2011-08-06, 11:04 | Link #23644 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Its pretty clear why Kyrie had to die in that scene in EP6. Battler was the exception in that case not Kyrie, just targeting the females in the family. Also in a more meta sense these where all characters that had a fair bit of suspicion placed on them trough out the series.
e- Im pretty sure some have mentioned the whole "Battler is the culprit and everything that he's done was a rationalization to try and hide what he did" theory some time ago |
2011-08-06, 12:50 | Link #23645 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Random comments, because it'd be a pain to quote every post.
1. Renall, you are a wonderful person. That strip seriously made my morning. XD 2. Not a fan of "Yasu is covering for culprit X" idea - it's not what I'd call a compliment to say so, but it seems kind of ... disrespectful, I want to say, to simply dismiss the possibility of Yasu either finding the resolve, or being in a situation to warrant murder. 3. Jessica clearly stated that she chose Kyrie by chance - roulette and all that. Of course, that was the Gamemaster's theme of "the victims are all women, and Battler too I guess. 4. Gohda is an awful liar - just because he DOES lie doesn't make him good at it. And in both instances he had a much better liar present to back up him up. He's such a bad liar that I honestly wonder why Yasu would've killed Gensawajo instead of him in any instance at all. Unless, in the Meta-sense, they thought "Geez, Gohda never has any scenes." 5. Fake murder game was not implied, but the crux of EP 6's main plot point. Motivate Piece-Battler however you see fit, I guess. o_o |
2011-08-06, 13:10 | Link #23646 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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I think having Yasu not be the culprit a more fitting end to the series than having her just be it. I like the idea that all the Ushiromiya women have their personal issues and that in the end they try their hardest to make up for them. We saw it with Natsuhi after coming to terms after her forced marriage. Eva with covering what happen and adopting Ange, Rosa with....????? maybe something to do with "Beatrice" 2 and or Maria? Kyrie (if we dont treat her as an insane murder) with Battler and Rudolph.
Also as Ive said, the whole scene with Ange and the book at the end wouldnt make sense if it said "And it was all servant X that committed the crimes" It either had to be her parents, Battler or Maria. |
2011-08-06, 13:19 | Link #23647 | |||
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If he was threatened with a blade or a gun, I think he'd do anything just to save his hide. You can see in EP2 that he actually doesn't know what he's saying, he probably just thought he'd better say nothing before messing everything up. And what were his chances? He could go against Genji and Yasu, who already killed 2 people in (most probably) his presence, and would end up dead, he could go confess to Rosa, who is according to what "Kanon" said, possibly a mumbling mess of paranoia who would shoot him dead before he finished "...but I'm not involved!", he could escape on an island that the people with guns know better than him or he could just go with Yasu's plan and play along. I think it's quite probable that Yasu actually suspected that Kumasawa and Nanjô would have opposed her in that situation and therefore she'd had to kill them. It's actually wolf vs. sheep. If Kumasawa, Nanjô and Gohda would have gone to Rosa and confessed against Yasu and Genji, Rosa might have been convinced...but one person against two, her chances are better with that. Quote:
George is quite implausible because it's made quite clear that Yasu would rather kill him than make him go bad, I think. Quote:
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2011-08-06, 13:43 | Link #23649 | |
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The second message bottle we learn of from Ôtsuki in EP4 turned out to have been found during a police search in the nearby waters of Rokkenjima on the day the tragedy occured. The police also released a report that due to the state of the crime scene and the state of how the bottle was sealed a forgery is highly unlikely and that it is likely to have been dispatched within some very few days almost right before the incident. Also the handwriting in both of these messages was proven to be identical, therefore the first one was handled as a legitimate piece as well. It was also said by experts that the content of the messages was that detailed on Rokkenjima and it's inhabitants, that it must have been written by an insider. |
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2011-08-06, 14:53 | Link #23650 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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The handwriting of both also matched the Beatrice parts in Maria's diary, right?
Interesting that the ep1 bottle was discovered years after the ep2 bottle. I wonder what it means that their order was switched for meta-Battler and for us, the readers. And what of the vastly different role that magic plays in each story? |
2011-08-06, 15:16 | Link #23651 | ||||||||||||||
The True Culprit
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This sets her apart from pretty much every other mass murderer ever. She has nothing to gain from it, not even release. Quote:
Genji = inconsistent characterization is inconsistent. Hideyoshi = "Lie for me or I kill your whole fucking family" or "Lie in order to support the murder mystery game so everyone can have gold ^_^" Take your pick. Quote:
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2011-08-06, 16:17 | Link #23652 | |||||||||||||
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"No, I truly love him, you mean old witch!", "Don't be ridiculous what do you think can come of it...what do you think he will say when he sees your body?!", "He loves me and I love him...you didn't even ever experience love!!", "I didn't experience love? Your just using him as an excuse!!"... What appears like a bitch-fight is very easy to dismantle as Yasu being unsure wether George actually is the man she loves or just a replacement. If she was sure it wasn't that way, we wouldn't have the whole freakin' dilemma in the first place. Quote:
Unless you say that Yasu survived and approached the police later on bribing them with the money that was left to release the second message bottle once she bribed the fisherman into telling that he found a bottle. This opens up a whole new level of wrong...which would take us from ミステリ to 社会派...and Ryûkishi said he definitely did not write 社会派. Quote:
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You could actually construct a story without Evil-Yasu at all with that set-up. Quote:
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And just because you dislike a theory doesn't make it the wrong theory. It's like saying that you don't believe in Agatha Christie's solution of a certain novel centering around the demise of a certain Mr. A. Quote:
Ange was 8 in 1986. Unless you want to include never hinted amnesiac Ange who forgot her presence on the island, this is total bullshit (as you'd say). You can't counter a theory that can be made according to events in the story with a theory that has been actively disproven by everything within the plot. Quote:
Spoiler for Oguri Mushitarôs Mansion of the Black Death Murder Case:
Spoiler for Yokomizo Seishis Village of the Eight Graves:
Spoiler for Yokomizo Seishis The Case of the Inugami Clan:
Spoiler for Yokomizo Seishis The Devil comes bearing a Flute:
Spoiler for Ayatsuji Yukitos Murder in the Decagon Mansion:
It's almost always some "emo bullshit" and mostly never a genius murderer who kills only for being a genius. And it's actually a matter of perspective wether you can pity Yasu or not. I can. Does that make me a bad person? I think the people on Rokkenjima are pretty terrible people...not terrible enough to warrant murder, but it wouldn't be a tragedy if it didn't evolve into a terrible chain of misunderstandings. |
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2011-08-06, 16:37 | Link #23653 | |||||||||
The True Culprit
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Aside from the Message Bottles part. Quote:
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If Yasu fucking killed everyone and Battler figured it out, why in the HELL is he breaking down into tears and telling her he's the one who did everything wrong, here? Why is he giving her a complete and total fucking moral pass? Battler is a soft-hearted idiot but he's not going to condone the Rokkenjima incident just because he didn't bone her.
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2011-08-06, 16:40 | Link #23654 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Hagamura, Beatrice, and the narrative have said in EP 6 that the ENTIRE game was supposed to be for the sole purpose of trolling Erika after she bragged about her detective awesomeness, only Erika was the one who made it into a tragedy.
I myself, pity Yasu though. |
2011-08-06, 17:34 | Link #23655 | |||
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The problem is that the police found that one bottle apparently very early on the 6th. It's said they found it among the items discovered during the crime scene search in the waters sorrounding the area on the very day of the incident 事件当日. They only did not see any need to report the message bottle until some time later...which is of course kinda fishy, but not really that strange considering how police is always depicted in mystery fiction as a group of no good idiots. Well, considering Ôtsuki said that they also analyzed its autencity by the state of how it was sealed, maybe they never opened it in the first place. Quote:
Most of the time I have no problem relating to that, when there are emotional traumata who move people who don't seem to see any other way out to murder. The only novel so far I absolutely despised was Utanos Murder in the Long House because the culprit was just a despicable mess: [spoiler]The motive was that he was pressured because he was dealing drugs and a drug addict himself.[/quote] I just couldn't feel with that culprit and Utano spend the whole epilogue to make him tell us how the culprit became that way and how sad that is...which I just couldn't agree on. Though of course many people think his novel is genius... Quote:
He's shouldering the blame because her plan to kill everybody, which she would have probably never executed, rooted in his inability to see that she loved him back then. His selfishnes to run away from his family brought her so far and that after he was the only one she ever kind of trusted. And on top of that I'm still sure that it never happened like she planned, because it couldn't go that way. She might have imagined herself to kill those people if all went wrong with both the trial of love and the epitaph riddle, but that was all overthrown when something quite similar to the Tea Party of EP7 happened. The fact alone that she actually nuked that shrine shows that she had the idea in her head. The question is, did she carry it out, was she able to carry it out? I'd say no...and that was the most pitiful part of her existence, that she created all those things in her head and it was used by people around her and she couldn't even warn anybody. |
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2011-08-06, 18:40 | Link #23656 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Battler would be a far greater man than I am if I found out one of my old friends ritualistically murdered my whole family because I didnt follow up on a silly promise I did as a kid.
I'd probably black out. Wake up in a dark room with a bat in my hands, a beaten up boy/girl and a naggin feeling that I might have been responsible for it. Next thing I know im in a writing a message in a bottle with a strange itch around my neck vvvvvv Will = Battler theory has been mentioned before. Most believe that isnt the case, I think I remember reading that Will was introduced because people in japan just didn't think Battler was trust worthy anymore. Battler culprit theory and all that. Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-08-06 at 19:08. |
2011-08-06, 19:19 | Link #23658 | |||||
The True Culprit
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Though of course many people think his novel is genius...[/QUOTE] Nevermind, then, those novels are bullshit. I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to tolerate condolences and forgiveness for a mass murderer, so I'm going to take the course of action that doesn't reduce Umineko to a piece of asswipe. Quote:
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2011-08-06, 20:07 | Link #23659 | |||
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It was heavily implied that both the letters and the message bottles were both written and dispatched before the incident. Just give me one good reason to doubt that...and I don't mean your "I don't like the story the way I think the author wants me to think he thought about his story". Quote:
"I don't like the way mysteries are done today...so I'm just gonna call them all shit and prove to everybody that I know better" It's your thing if you can't agree with a story that asks for understanding or forgiving a mass murderer...which is not the case in any of those stories, not even Umineko I think. I think they just ask for you to understand how a human being can be driven so far as to even think about committing such an act. But if you prefer to calling it bullshit, asswipe or emo and want to reduce it to "She wanted to kill because he didn't bang her"...okay, if that's your idea of handling a narrative... Quote:
And what we've gone over is that you don't trust the EP7 Tea Party because it does not fit into your idea of the solution that Umineko should have. You're imposing a truth on a story while disregarding evidence that was clearly there from the start. Would you rather believe in a magical lighting bolt that struck the shrine and magically made it vanish including Torî and everything?! |
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2011-08-06, 20:25 | Link #23660 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Am I the only one who loved the EP7 tea party? While deep down I hope it is fake, I am willing to accept it if that is indeed the solution, I also loved how the narrative was when Rudolph killed George, however I like to think that even when met with a stack of gold, everyone would have been smart enough to come to the same conclusion Kyrie did.(yeah just because we see millions of dollars worth of gold means we can exchange it for that much! Even moreso if one of us is dead!), I just can't buy that greed would make them THAT stupid.
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