[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Actually no, since Lion is flatchested.

Ryukishi sucks at drawing. I mean, Amakusa has breasts for crying out loud. Big ones. Theres probably some kind of visual trick to it.

Hey you are either stuck with:

1 Shannon is actually flatchested
2 Lion can bind that massive breast
3 Shannon isn't Yasu.

1) Is impossible
2) Lion may just work out their upper body a lot, thus burning through the tissue before it builds up, or ingests testosterone or took shots, or whatever.
3) Then Episode 7 is more or less a complete lie.

[Steampunk Librarian]

Putting that statement aside, I wonder:

Kanon takes up being Shannon to do X (X being either easy work or otherwise). Yasu-Shannon uses that time to do harder work, or possibly to solve the epitaph with the spare time. When Battler comes to the island, Yasu abandons being Shannon, and starts to act as Beatrice (the umbrella, letters and her appearance in EP 2 + 4). Kanon has to juggle being Shannon and Kanon in her stead, thus creating the reason why no one (from Battler's POV) has ever seen them in the same room together during the incident.

Would that fix why neither of them are seen together, yet how it allows the family who sees them to remain sane? Sane here meaning that you'd have to be crazy not to realize the difference.

[Erisette]

1 would fit with the whole "I will give you the blonde hair and big chest he wants" bit.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Ryukishi sucks at drawing. I mean, Amakusa has breasts for crying out loud. Big ones. Theres probably some kind of visual trick to it.

Those are muscles!
And you can't say that the lack of breast in Lion is a mistake. Ryuukishi tends to give breast to those who are not supposed to have it, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by TehChron

1) Is impossible

Huh? °_° Impossible for a girl to be flatchested? Impossible that she could use fake breasts?

Originally Posted by TehChron

2) Lion may just work out their upper body a lot, thus burning through the tissue before it builds up, or ingests testosterone or took shots, or whatever.

Does Lion looks like she's using testosterone?! °_°

Originally Posted by TehChron

3) Then Episode 7 is more or less a complete lie.

At least we agree on this.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Steampunk Librarian

I dislike thinking that Jessica (someone who sees them the most, specifically Kanon) can't tell she is talking to the same person.

She's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but she's also not a blind bag of rocks. I wouldn't even give that distinction to Krauss, and he's arguably the biggest blockhead in the entire series.

EP7 did a good job of smoothing over Shkanon and making it seem satisfying, but where's the explanation of how s/he pulled those three years off? Where are the disguise hints in the earlier episodes? That's the kind of omission that seems way out-of-place in an otherwise heavily detailed and foreshadowing-filled story.

If Ryukishi's going to write it off as one of those "well, you readers figure it out for yourself" things he promised...*epic facedesk*

(and for the record, I have to agree with the "fake boobs" option - there's just no way to bind oneself to the level of Kanon's figure without immense pain O__o)

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by ameskitty

She's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but she's also not a blind bag of rocks. I wouldn't even give that distinction to Krauss, and he's arguably the biggest blockhead in the entire series.

EP7 did a good job of smoothing over Shkanon and making it seem satisfying, but where's the explanation of how s/he pulled those three years off? Where are the disguise hints in the earlier episodes? That's the kind of omission that seems way out-of-place in an otherwise heavily detailed and foreshadowing-filled story.

If Ryukishi's going to write it off as one of those "well, you readers figure it out for yourself" things he promised...*epic facedesk*

(and for the record, I have to agree with the "fake boobs" option - there's just no way to bind oneself to the level of Kanon's figure without immense pain O__o)

Read my spoiler on the previous page.

It explains the foreshadowing.

Those are muscles!

LIES

And you can't say that the lack of breast in Lion is a mistake. Ryuukishi tends to give breast to those who are not supposed to have it, not the other way around.

And lolis are supposed to be the good guys, right? Maybe he, like every other person who draws stuff in the world, is aware of his own style and therefore would act in a way intentionally contrary to it when necessary?

Huh? °_° Impossible for a girl to be flatchested? Impossible that she could use fake breasts?

No, it's just impossible for Shannon to be flat-chested.

Does Lion looks like she's using testosterone?! °_°

Looks pretty damn mannish as it is.

At least we agree on this.

Tch.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Does Lion looks like she's using testosterone?! °_°

Depending on the age when "she" started doing so. Might be. Within RyukishiDrawing margin of error.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

At least we agree on this.

Actually, it is possible for Bernkastel's presentation to be completely truthful in every factual statement given, and yet completely untrue as a whole - in every factual statement given.

Not by setting accents. Not by telling it without love. There's a neater way. With it, Bernkastel can even be utterly convinced she is telling things as they happened, be right in every word and still wrong overall.

This can happen when unconnected events are presented as if they are connected, when multiple independent stories -- such as events that happen separately to "Shannon" and to "Kanon", for example -- are thought to happen with the same combined character, who in this manner acquires an indeterminate gender.

There are other instances in the series where some kind of mixup of this type probably happens. For example, take Ep3. Yes, that very same Ep3 that Ep7 seems to mirror. Evatrice is very plainly and obviously alleged to derive from Eva, and yet she talks to Rosa like they were small together, referencing that multiple times, when the age difference between Eva and Rosa is tremendous. But the age difference between Rosa and Beatrice-2 is not, Beatrice-2 is at most a couple of years older.

Similarly, Will equates the fall of Beatrice-2 with the fall of the servant carrying the Baby-19, when the stories don't really match in any way. He seems to think they're the same story.

"Don't think too much, it'll give you a headache.", right? Well, I'd rather have a headache.

[Steampunk Librarian]

Originally Posted by ameskitty

EP7 did a good job of smoothing over Shkanon and making it seem satisfying, but where's the explanation of how s/he pulled those three years off? Where are the disguise hints in the earlier episodes? That's the kind of omission that seems way out-of-place in an otherwise heavily detailed and foreshadowing-filled story.

If Ryukishi's going to write it off as one of those "well, you readers figure it out for yourself" things he promised...*epic facedesk*

Yeah, that's why I tend to lean on Double Shkanon, just because it makes the whole switcheroo that is supposedly going on for the past few years more possible.

Otherwise, does this mean Natsuhi has been paying Yasushkanon double??? O_O!

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by TehChron

No, I think it actually is more solid, not only does it get around the various failures of Classic Shkannon, but it also explains the various contradicting descriptions of Shannon's character, which Classic seemed to more or less ignore.

No but really, you're the awesome one for seeing this possibility to begin with.

I was just lucky. If I had began to read the series along with everybody else I probably wouldn't have thought of it, to be honest. But I just began to read it what, two weeks ago? So I had a fresh perspective and a lot of theories to work with.

If Double Shkanon does turn out to be true, it will be the best feeling ever. We dueled with Ryuukishi while we were bleeding, and we still won. It will be like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6m7NR6iYjg

Except with more blue.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Hey you are either stuck with:

1 Shannon is actually flatchested
2 Lion can bind that massive breast
3 Shannon isn't Yasu.

Yeah, if Classic Shkanon is true then dear God Shannon must either be in a lot of pain, or a ninja.

So let's list things that Double Shkanon clears up:

List(feel free to add examples that I might miss):
-People being insane and not noticing how they are the same person
-The boob problem
-Episode 2's closed room
-Erika seeing them both in the same room
-Episode 1's first twilight with Shannon's body and Kanon in the same room
-The logic error
-The "this is a tale of 17 people" red
-Jessica/George's sanity

What else would it explain?

[Jan-Poo]

No, it's just impossible for Shannon to be flat-chested.



RED!!!! You'll be shut closed forever into a logic error! Why you did it?!!!


But honestly, the double shkanon theory assumes that shannon and kanon are disguising to each other, so how exactly it solves the problem of Shannon's breast?

[Steampunk Librarian]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But honestly, the double shkanon theory assumes that shannon and kanon are disguising to each other, so how exactly does it solve the problem of Shannon's breast?

I think we need to consider why Lion's chest is flat. Biological? The fall?


I personally don't know how a baby could survive a fall like that... I consider that story to be a lie, but that's just me.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

No, it's just impossible for Shannon to be flat-chested.



RED!!!! You'll be shut closed forever into a logic error! Why you did it?!!!

I will quote TTGL in this thread.

Just watch me.

But honestly, the double shkanon theory assumes that shannon and kanon are disguising to each other, so how exactly it solves the problem of Shannon's breast?

It allows for wiggle room and possible explanation X to be applied.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by ameskitty

(and for the record, I have to agree with the "fake boobs" option - there's just no way to bind oneself to the level of Kanon's figure without immense pain O__o)

Would explain why Kanon always looks so glum...

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

3 Shannon isn't Yasu.

If Shannon isn't Yasu then who else could it be?
I hope it's not a character we have never heard of before.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Would explain why Kanon always looks so glum...

Well the possibility exists that hes always depressed because hes consciously aware that he has a crossdressing homosexual alternate personality.

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah... nevermind...

WILL, how exactly the double shkanon theory solves the problem of Shannon's breast?

If Shannon isn't Yasu then who else could it be?

That would be Kanon.
Both Shannon and Kanon(Yasu) are made to work at the age of 6 in 1976, but then after a while Kanon(Yasu) doesn't want to be a servant anymore so for everyone Yasu is just a servant that was gone after 3 years, but Actually Yasu lurked around Rokkenjima in the role of Beatrice, living in the VIP guestroom with the help pf Genji and Kumasawa.
Then after some while Yasu decided to return as the servant Kanon to help Shannon forget about Battler.

Of course it doesn't really make sense.

[Steampunk Librarian]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Yeah... nevermind...

WILL, how exactly the double shkanon theory solves the problem of Shannon's breast?




That would be Kanon.
Both Shannon and Kanon(Yasu) are made to work at the age of 6 in 1976, but then after a while Kanon(Yasu) doesn't want to be a servant anymore so for everyone Yasu is just a servant that was gone after 3 years, but Actually Yasu lurked around Rokkenjima in the role of Beatrice, living in the VIP guestroom with the help pf Genji and Kumasawa.
Then after some while Yasu decided to return as the servant Kanon to help Shannon forget about Battler.

Of course it doesn't really make sense.

The thing that gets in the way of Yasu-Kanon is that Shannon, to allow Yasu-Kanon to run around like Beatrice, would need to bind down her boobs.

With Yasu-Shannon, she doesn't need to do that, but then the issue of why Lion's chest appears to be flat comes to mind.

Single Shkannontrice brings up the issue of why she/he is doing it (having personality issues just seems... really stupid and cheap plot device) and how he/she is doing it without Natsuhi, Jessica, Krauss and the other servants noticing. 3 years is a long time to never get caught. I can understand possibly the servants won't tell and Natsuhi's sanity is already in question over other things, but Krauss and Jessica aren't that stupid or blind. Jessica confides in Shannon pretty often, and she has been trying to get close to Kanon for a while now. I doubt she would have trouble telling the difference. I don't think George has ever seen/met Kanon up close, so I don't know.

Double Yasu-Shannontrice and Kashannon runs into the issue that Yasu/Lion seemingly has no boobs.

I just find that single has way more going wrong for it than double.

[Jan-Poo]

the main problem I see with double shkanon is that it doesn't fit with the EP6 love trial as good as single shkanon does, and that's not a minor issue.

[Steampunk Librarian]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

the main problem I see with double shkanon is that it doesn't fit with the EP6 love trial as good as single shkanon does, and that's not a minor issue.

I was thinking, with double shkannon, the love trial turns from whether or not Shannon/Kanon will get to have their chance at love and is flipped. With double, now its whether or not George or Jessica will get love from Kashannon. Aka, the choice Kanon will have to make because he/she can't keep up the charade forever.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Steampunk Librarian

I was thinking, with double shkannon, the love trial turns from whether or not Shannon/Kanon will get to have their chance at love and is flipped. With double, now its whether or not George or Jessica will get love from Kashannon. Aka, the choice Kanon will have to make because he/she can't keep up the charade forever.

And as I said, Beato's place in the trial is just embellishment. The real point is Shannon v. Kanon, and the result of that.